Does Lifton's Best Evidence indicate that the coverup and the crime were committed by the same people?

[Paul Brancato]

Michael - that wasn't aimed at you. 

[Gerry Simone]

18 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

There's also this Richard Lipsey interview....

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOSXJlbmhHT2xuaFU/view

 

Thanks David.  You da man!  You've got a lot of good stuff on your website too.

[Gerry Simone]

19 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

You might also be interested in the after-action report written by Marine Sergeant Roger Boyajian to his Commanding Officer on 11/26/63.

According to his report, "the casket" was received at the morgue at 6:35 pm, some 20 minutes before the Dallas casket arrived in front of the hospital.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md236/html/md236_0005a.htm

 

Thank you for this too Ron.  I've only read Doug Horne's account and YT interview of the casket arriving an hour - or hour and half before the start of the autopsy.  This also reconciles with Horne's account of a casket arriving earlier.

[Gerry Simone]

18 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Gerry,

Pat Speer's page is slow because he has too much on one page.   It's a huge page.  But the four videos I'm talking about are the LAST FOUR ON THE PAGE.

They are stacked on top of each other, and at least one is titled, "Noise-O-Vision" or some such.

It's easy to get lost in that large page.   But just rush to the bottom.  The videos are short.

Let me know!
--Paul Trejo

You mean on his main or intro page?  (i.e., not within a particular chapter)

[Gerry Simone]

23 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Gerry,

Of course the USSR was behind Cuba, and behind the politics of the day.  Yet Cuba was a violation of the MONROE DOCTRINE according to General Walker and others.

As for Vietnam, it was on the agenda -- but please, let us go back to 1963 if we can -- and try to put ourselves back into the Cuban Missile Crisis mood -- and try to gauge just how crucial Cuba was as a means to re-unite the Radical Right in the USA.

Cuba wasn't all-important -- but Cuba was enormous in 1963 as a political football, and the Radical Right -- and the Minutemen -- had many Cuban Expatriates in Miami and New Orleans (and even Dallas) to push, prod and finance a terrifying act.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

I think the picture was bigger than Cuba, but easier to use Cuba as an excuse for Oswald.  The Cuban Missile Crisis resolved with a promise not to invade (unless provoked of course) and that was in the past, even though it probably didn't sit well with the Radical Right or military elite.  Like Di Eugenio said, James Douglass does a good job of explaining the big picture, but Di Eugenio has talked about this too at Lancer (JFK's Foreign Policies as a motive for his murder).  I thought VietNam became more of a concern for JFK's enemies (RR, MIC) AFTER the CMC or in 1963.  Even nuclear proliferation was an issue in 1963.  However, the assassination could've still been payback for the BOP, but there were other policies that might have been the proverbial last straws.  So I guess it could've started off as a "Cuban thing", and other reasons added fuel to the conspiracy fire so to speak (VietNam, other foreign policy decisions, the war against the Mob).

Edited April 7, 2017 by Gerry Simone

[Gerry Simone]

15 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Gerry - where did you hear that?

I do not recall, but I know I read it somewhere.  I'll try to check this weekend and get back to you.

[Paul Trejo]

4 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

...I have mulled this over in my mind for years, and haven't figured out a way to express it, but that's why I haven't given too much credence to the idea of the ultra far right fringe like the KKK or the Knights of Shickshimmey or whatever cooperating much with the anti-Castro exiles. I think they would have been perfectly willing to sit back and watch their little brown brothers kill each other off.

Steve Thomas 

Steve,

I agree to a point -- except that New Orleans was an exception.  In the issue of Anticommunism, the Radical Right of all States praised Catholic Father Charles Coughlin for his rabid anti-Semitism.

Also, in the issue of the Brown Decision to racially integrate all US Public Schools, there was a large Segregation movement in New Orleans by Catholic gentlemen.

(I should point out here that the Louisiana Bishop stomped on the Catholic gentleman's segregation League, but they still operated underground).

Guy Banister was a racist WASP, but he got along just fine with Cuban mercenaries and Catholics like David Ferrie.   Also with Latinos like Carlos Marcello who provided large amounts of money.

In the KKK cause of Anticommunism, getting underground money was very useful -- and the Mafia (usually Italian and Catholic) were valued for their wads of money.

Also -- if I may raise the specter of James Files, he was a white racist bigot -- yet he was also the chauffer for Charles Nicoletti and Johnny Roselli (whom he claims shot at JFK).

So -- there was definitely overlap between the Radical Right and certain Catholics like the Cuban Anticommunists who wanted to re-take Cuba.  That was a Common Cause.

To bring this back to the title of this thread -- the JFK Kill Team wanted to blame the Communists for the JFK assassination.  The JFK Cover-up Team used the "Lone Nut" theory precisely to PREVENT anybody from blaming the Communists for the JFK assassination.

IMHO, this demonstrates SOLIDLY that the Cover-up people and the Killer criminals were TWO VERY DIFFERENT AND HOSTILE GROUPS.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited April 7, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

46 minutes ago, Gerry Simone said:

I think the picture was bigger than Cuba, but easier to use Cuba as an excuse for Oswald.  The Cuban Missile Crisis resolved with a promise not to invade (unless provoked of course) and that was in the past, even though it probably didn't sit well with the Radical Right or military elite.  Like Di Eugenio said, James Douglass does a good job of explaining the big picture, but Di Eugenio has talked about this too at Lancer (JFK's Foreign Policies as a motive for his murder).  I thought VietNam became more of a concern for JFK's enemies (RR, MIC) AFTER the CMC or in 1963.  Even nuclear proliferation was an issue in 1963.  However, the assassination could've still been payback for the BOP, but there were other policies that might have been the proverbial last straws.  So I guess it could've started off as a "Cuban thing", and other reasons added fuel to the conspiracy fire so to speak (VietNam, other foreign policy decisions, the war against the Mob).

Gerry,

A history of General Walker explains much here.   This will help to explain why the JFK Cover-up Team had to strictly oppose the JFK Kill Team.

1.  General Walker opposed JFK at Ole Miss on September 30, 1962.   This is where the big mess started.  Hundreds were wounded and two were killed.

2.  JFK and RFK arrested General Walker on October 1, 1962, and sent him to an insane asylum, where he was promptly stripped naked -- according to Walker.

3.  The ACLU and psychiatrist Thomas Szasz quickly defended General Walker from this political use of psychiatry.   Walker was freed in three days.

4.  In January, 1963, a Mississippi Grand Jury declared Walker to be sane, and "therefore" innocent of all charges in the Ole Miss riots.

5.  General Walker had more reason to hate JFK and RFK than even Carlos Marcello at this point.

6.  Somebody tried to kill General Walker at his home in Dallas on April 10, 1963

7.  By Easter Sunday 14 April 1963, says Dick Russell, the FBI learned that Lee Harvey Oswald was the main suspect in this shooting (TMWKTM, 1992).

8.  General Walker found out about it around that very day -- according to Walker himself.  This is to be found in Walker's personal papers in Austin: http://www.pet880.com/images/19750623_EAW_to_Frank_Church.pdf

9.  Walker then spent the rest of the year plotting revenge against BOTH Lee Harvey Oswald and JFK.

10.  The Cubans were a means-to-an-end for General Walker.  Of course he was violently Anticommunist and wanted Fidel Castro dead -- but Walker wanted something more -- Walker also wanted JFK dead -- and he also wanted Lee Harvey Oswald dead.

11.  The evidence that the USA Radical Right killed JFK had to be suppressed for up to 75 years, simply because the USSR would have had a field day with it.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited April 7, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Cliff Varnell]

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Cliff,

According to the WC testimony of US Secretary of State Dean Rusk, the only reason that Dallas backed off of its fantasy that the Communists killed JFK was that he, personally called Texas Attorney General Waggoner Carr and ordered him to cease and desist.

Waggoner Carr called Dallas DA Henry Wade and that was that.

This all happened on 11/22/1963. 

 

Factually incorrect.

Rusk denied knowing about the Dallas "international conspiracy" charge since he didn't return to DC until the next morning.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh5/html/WC_Vol5_0189b.htm

[Paul Trejo]

25 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Factually incorrect.

Rusk denied knowing about the Dallas "international conspiracy" charge since he didn't return to DC until the next morning.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh5/html/WC_Vol5_0189b.htm

Cliff,

You're right.   I was off by one day.   Dean Rusk challenged Waggoner Carr on 11/23/1963.   And Carr backed down.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Brancato]

Paul T - why are you writing about your Walker theory on this thread?

[Paul Brancato]

1 hour ago, Gerry Simone said:

I do not recall, but I know I read it somewhere.  I'll try to check this weekend and get back to you.

Gerry - There is so much info and so little time. I quite understand. What is clear is that the first autopsy plan was Walter Reed hospital. I know from looking at the AF 1 tape Clifton version, which is longer than the one in the LBJ library but still far from complete, is that there was an argument aboard which resulted in moving the autopsy to Bethesda. I don't recall Jackie playing any part in that decision, but do remember that Bundy at the WH situation room and the Secret Service agents aboard AF 1 (I think Kellerman) argued for Bethesda, and I think JFK's physician, and Clifton, JFK's senior aide (chief of staff) lost the argument. As to why Walter Reed was his choice, and not Bethesda, I don't know. Interestingly, another tidbit on the longer Clifton version but not on the LBJ version, is that an aide to Curtis LeMay can be heard trying to interrupt AF 1 transmissions to get an urgent message to LeMay. Wonder what that was about. Well, I think LeMay and his cigar were seen at the Bethesda autopsy, so I presume the aide was telling LeMay, apparently already aboard a C-140, where the autopsy would be. LeMay did in fact land at the closer airport. 

Btw, Lifton says there was an autopsy team assembled and ready to go at Walter Reed!

[Paul Trejo]

3 hours ago, Gerry Simone said:

You mean on his main or intro page?  (i.e., not within a particular chapter)

Yes, his intro page.

Regards 

--Paul 

[Alistair Briggs]

On 06/04/2017 at 9:51 PM, Gerry Simone said:

I thought Jackie had also something to do with the choice for Bethesda since JFK was in the navy.

&

19 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Gerry - where did you hear that?

I just so happened to be reading Jim Marrs Crossfire earlier on today, in which it mentions the choice of Bethesda and points in the direction of Dr George G Burkley mentioning that it was Jackie that 'chose' Bethesda. Just came across online an 'oral history interview with Burkley' that the following quote comes from...

Quote

When the President was on the Air Force One returning to Washington, Mrs. Kennedy, as has been noted, sat in the rear of the plane, next to the coffin bearing the President's remains. During the flight I contacted her, and stated that an autopsy would be necessary, and that I was perfectly willing to arrange to have it done at any place that she felt it should be done. She said, "Well, it doesn't have to be done." I said, "Yes, it is mandatory that we have an autopsy. I can do it at the Army hospital at Walter Reed, or at the Navy hospital at Bethesda, or any civilian hospital that you would designate." However, I felt that it should be a military hospital, in that he had been President of the United States and was, therefore, the Commander in Chief of the Military. After some consideration she stated that she would like to have the President taken to Bethesda...

 

[Paul Trejo]

2 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Paul T - why are you writing about your Walker theory on this thread?

Paul B.,

Because it indicates that the cover-up and the crime weren't committed by the same people.  So it's relevant to that extent.

As for David Clifton's "Best Evidence", if that point was clear there, he would hardly need a second book.

In my reading of"BE" years ago I was struck by the many times that Lifton was willing to consider a Benign Theory of the pre-autopsy autopsy.

Regards 

--Paul Trejo 

Edited April 7, 2017 by Paul Trejo