Deposition of Marita Lorenz in Hunt v. Weberman (1978)

[Joe Bauer]

Thank you Mike.  Same to you.

[David Andrews]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

David,

I agree.  Let's review the rogues:

1.  Rogues from the CIA (e.g. David Morales, Howard Hunt)

2. Rogues from the Dallas FBI (e.g. James Hosty)

3. Rogues from the Dallas Secret Service (e.g. Forrest Sorrels)

4. Rogues from among Dallas Deputies (e.g. Buddy Walthers)

5. Rogues from among the Dallas Sheriffs (e.g. Bill Decker)

6. Rogues from among the Dallas Police (e.g. Will Fritz, Jesse Curry)

7.  Rogues from among the Dallas Post Office (e.g. Harry Holmes)

8. Rogues from among CIA mercenaries trying to assassinate Fidel Castro (e.g. Loran Hall, Gerry Patrick Hemming, Frank Sturgis)

I'm losing count here -- and there are many more --- but what dawns on me in living color are the conclusions of the US House Select Committee on Assassinations (1979), to wit:

"The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy.  The committee was unable to identify the other gunmen or the extent of the conspiracy....

• The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that anti-Castro Cuban groups, as groups, were not involved in the assassination of Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved.
• The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the national syndicate of organized crime, as a group, was not involved in the assassination of Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved.
• The Secret Service, Federal Bureau of Investigation, and Central Intelligence Agency were not involved in the assassination of Kennedy" [but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved] (addition mine).

Yet I must repeat here -- all these Rogues absolutely require a Leader to organize all the moving parts.  That Leader would best coordinate from the vantage of Dallas itself.  My vote goes to Ex-General Edwin Walker.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

As Bob Dylan might say:

"How many rogues must a man walk down

Before he discovers a plan?

How man rogues does it take till he knows

Not to blame it on the Ku Klux Klan?

How many rogues will it take till he sees

That it's CIA to the last man?"

The answer, my friend....

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

Mike, I actually only respond to about 10% of the threads I would like to here because I am fully aware of my limited hard research knowledge and I sincerely don't want to interrupt the flow of our truly informed member's contributions and discourse.

I understand and appreciate their decades of hard and sacrificing work in this JFK truth seeking realm and making this forum what it is...far and away the best higher plane JFK assassination research site ever.

I also know that there are hundreds of passionate for the JFK assassination truth seeking people like me who follow this forum  ( and have for years ) and who relish the deeper research revelations and don't post because of what I mentioned earlier. They ( we ) don't want to be included into Gary Murr's recent post categorization of uninformed "morons" who dilute the discussion here.

I do feel guilty of this to a degree and am trying to limit my interjections to certain topics and to better thought out questions versus just making poor research assertions.  I will say that I am improving my own research knowledge ( this forum is a great research educational site and tool on it's own ) and I do access as many links as I can that are listed here and "thoroughly" read the research material they provide ( Jim DiEugenio's and others )  I am reading more JFK books and articles and I am always reading the Warren Commission and HSCA testimonies including the most obscure entries.

However, I'm too old and not energized enough to ever reach the research knowledge level of the main posters here but I'll keep posting occasionally until I feel I am more in the Gary Murr moron category than not.

I suppose that my conclusion regards the question of who killed JFK  ( and MLK and RFK ) is a broader realm one of the corruption of America to a degree we have never come to grips with.  This corruption ( as Eisenhower partially described in his MIC  warning farewell speech ) including the corrupting marriage of organized crime with our highest level government agencies and offices and mix in deep racism hate, inflamed hot headed Cuban exile hate and incredible self interest greed and power acquisition obsession... JFK and RFK  didn't have a chance.   

 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Joe Bauer

[Paul Trejo]

25 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

... This corruption ( as Eisenhower described in his MIC  warning farewell speech ) took place and grew over many decades and JFK/RFK didn't have a chance against it.

Joe,

One can argue, however, that JFK and RFK saw the evil of Ex-General Edwin Walker since 1961, and handled him poorly.

When Walker led the bloody racial riots at Ole Miss U. in September 1962 -- during the Cuban Missile Crisis -- the frustrated JFK and RFK threw Walker into an insane asylum.

That was a big mistake.

First, using psychiatry for the sake of politics is always a bad move.  It oversteps the Constitution, and beside that, it stirs up the hornets nest in somebody already paranoid.

The fact that Thomas Szasz and the ACLU got Edwin Walker out of that insane asylum within three days (of his 90-day observation period) is a testimony for US Freedoms.

General Walker was convinced that JFK and RFK had hired Lee Harvey Oswald to shoot General Walker at his home in Dallas.  (Whether true or not, this is what Walker always believed, for the rest of his life.)  Here is what Walker told a German newspaper less than 24 hours after the JFK assassination:

http://www.pet880.com/images/19631129_Deutsche_NZ.jpg

My point here is that JFK and RFK should have seen this coming.  Their fault was that they relied too heavily on the Secret Service, and the Secret Service relied too heavily on its PRS (Protective Research Section) and the PRS relied too  heavily on the local Dallas FBI -- which was in direct contact with Edwin Walker. 

The link with Marita Lorenz and AJ Weberman is obviously through Gerry Patrick Hemming -- who had a written correspondence with General Walker in 1963.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 11, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Mathias Baumann]

10 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

David,

I agree.  Let's review the rogues:

1.  Rogues from the CIA (e.g. David Morales, Howard Hunt)

2. Rogues from the Dallas FBI (e.g. James Hosty)

3. Rogues from the Dallas Secret Service (e.g. Forrest Sorrels)

4. Rogues from among Dallas Deputies (e.g. Buddy Walthers)

5. Rogues from among the Dallas Sheriffs (e.g. Bill Decker)

6. Rogues from among the Dallas Police (e.g. Will Fritz, Jesse Curry)

7.  Rogues from among the Dallas Post Office (e.g. Harry Holmes)

8. Rogues from among CIA mercenaries trying to assassinate Fidel Castro (e.g. Loran Hall, Gerry Patrick Hemming, Frank Sturgis)

I'm losing count here -- and there are many more --- but what dawns on me in living color are the conclusions of the US House Select Committee on Assassinations (1979), to wit:

"The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy.  The committee was unable to identify the other gunmen or the extent of the conspiracy....

• The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that anti-Castro Cuban groups, as groups, were not involved in the assassination of Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved.
• The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the national syndicate of organized crime, as a group, was not involved in the assassination of Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved.
• The Secret Service, Federal Bureau of Investigation, and Central Intelligence Agency were not involved in the assassination of Kennedy" [but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved] (addition mine).

Yet I must repeat here -- all these Rogues absolutely require a Leader to organize all the moving parts.  That Leader would best coordinate from the vantage of Dallas itself.  My vote goes to Ex-General Edwin Walker.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul,

the assassination could have happened anywhere. Think of the plots that failed in Chicago and Tampa. It was probably just a stroke of luck that it worked in Dallas.

I just chanced upon his highly interesting article that gives a lot of background information on the previous plots I'd been looking for a long time:

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-three-failed-plots-to-kill-jfk-the-historians-guide-on-how-to-research-his-assassination

The similarities are striking:

Chicago

Quote

November 2, 1963, JFK was scheduled to attend the Army-Air Force game at Soldiers Field. Plans called for him to arrive at O'Hare around 11a.m., motorcade down what was then known as the Northwest Expressway to the Loop.

At Jackson the caravan would lumber up the Jackson exit, make a slow difficult left-hand turn onto the street and shuttle over to the stadium. The Jackson exit would be crowded with no fewer than 45 local school and civic organizations anxious to see the President.

As in Dallas, JFK's limousine would pass through a warehouse district —which Secret Service advance men considered 10 times more deadly than any office building corridor.

As in Dallas, JFK's limousine would be forced to make a difficult 90-degree turn that would slow them to practically a standstill.

As in Dallas, triangulation of fire would be simple because of the unobstructed view.

As in Dallas, the crowd would panic, allowing the assassins to escape unnoticed.

...

Another suspect picked up for questioning was a would-be patsy. Black describes him as follows:

The man's name was Thomas Arthur Vallee, a 30-year-old ex-Marine classified extreme paranoid schizophrenic by military doctors. Vallee worked as an apprentice at IPP Litho-plate at 625 West Jackson. As the patsy, he was perfect—as perfect for the Chicago assassination plot as Lee Harvey Oswald was for the Dallas assassination plot.

Vallee was born and raised in Chicago. Like Oswald, he joined the Marines in the mid-50s during the Korean War period. Like Oswald, Vallee was assigned to a U-2 base in Japan (where he also worked as a radar operator – according to Jim Douglass). Oswald at Atsugi, Vallee at Camp Otsu. The cover reference for the U-2 project at these bases was Joint Technical Advisory Group (JTAG). Since CIA exerted a strong presence at these two bases, they were prime recruitment stations.

Both Vallee and Oswald appear to have been recruited by CIA for "black missions" or otherwise unsavory, personally discrediting assignments. In Oswald's case, at the height of the Cold War, he was instructed and helped to defect to Russia. With him he carried top secret radar codes. Oswald's mission, probably unbeknownst to him, may have been to reveal this disinformation for some complex CIA intelligence stratagem. Warren Commission testimony documents that all these radar codes had to be revised because of Oswald's defection.

Vallee was recruited about the same time to train members of a fiercely anti-Castro guerrilla group. Objective: the assassination of Fidel Castro. Training locale: in and around Levittown, Long Island.

Neither Vallee nor Oswald received money for their clandestine duties. The surreptitious nature of the business was ego-building to their personalities... Inherently rewarding. Both Vallee and Oswald had recently taken jobs in warehouses at the planned assassination sites. Oswald at the fifth floor book depository on Elm Street in Dallas. Vallee on the third floor IPP printing company looking out over Jackson Street exit ramp where Kennedy's limousine would have been hit.

Both Vallee and Oswald could be shown to have extremist political views. Both owned rifles. Both were basically loners. Basically drifters. Basically lowlife. The dregs of society. Perfect for the work they were recruited for. Perfect for a frame-up.

They even resembled one another physically.

 

Tampa

Quote

Existing Secret Service files in the 1970s made it clear that the Tampa threat was posed by a single mobile sniper who would fire from a tall building using a high power rifle fitted with a scope. Other accounts however describe the plot as multi-person.

The motorcade route in Tampa was very long and presented Dealey Plaza quality opportunities. Other researchers chronicled how Lopez moved from the Keys to Tampa shortly before the motorcade, echoing Vallee and Oswald’s pawn-like pre-motorcade movements.

The HSCA described parts of what it called the Lopez allegation:

Lopez would have obtained a tourist card in Tampa on November 20, 1963, entered Mexico at Nuevo Laredo on November 23 and flew from Mexico City to Havana on November 27. Further, Lopez was alleged to have attended a meeting of the Tampa Chapter of the FPCC on November 17... CIA files on Lopez reflect that in early December, 1963 they received a classified message requesting urgent traces on Lopez... Later the CIA headquarters received another classified message stating that a source stated that "Lopes" had been involved in the Kennedy assassination ... had entered Mexico by foot from Laredo on November 13...proceeded by bus to Mexico City where he entered the Cuban embassy...and left for Cuba as the only passenger on flight 465 for Cuba. A CIA file on Lopez was classified as a counterintelligence case...

An FBI investigation on Lopez through an interview with his cousin and wife as well as document research revealed that... He was pro-Castro and he had once gotten involved in a fistfight over his Castro sympathies.

The FBI had previously documented that Lopez has actually been in contact with the FPCC and had attended a meeting in Tampa on November 20, 1963. In a March 1964 report, it recounted that at a November 17 meeting... Lopez said he had not been granted permission to return to Cuba but was awaiting a phone call about his return to his homeland... A Tampa FPCC member was quoted as saying she called a friend in Cuba on December 8, 1963 and was told that he arrived safely. She also said that they (the FPCC) had given Lopez 190$ for his return. The FBI confirmed the Mexico trip (Lopez’ wife confirmed that in a letter he sent her from Cuba in November 1963, he had received financial assistance for his trip to Cuba from an organization in Tampa) ... information sent to the Warren Commission by the FBI on the Tampa chapter of the FPCC did not contain information on Lopez’ activities... nor apparently on Lopez himself. The Committee concurred with the Senate Select Committee that this omission was egregious, since the circumstances surrounding Lopez’ travel seemed "suspicious". Moreover, in March 1964 when the WC’s investigation was in its most active stage, there were reports circulating that Lopez had been involved in the assassination... Lopez’ association with the FPCC, however, coupled with the fact that the dates of his travel to Mexico via Texas coincide with the assassination, plus the reports that Lopez’ activities were "suspicious" all amount to troublesome circumstances that the committee was unable to resolve with confidence.

You're right there had to be a leader. But why General Walker? Why not, say Santos Trafficante or Carlos Marcello? We know that Mafia boss Johnny Roselli was friends with both David Morales and William Harvey, the CIA's experts in assassination. And we know that quite a number of mafia big shots were "silenced" when investigators started asking questions about the CIA-Mafia plots against Castro.

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎8‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 7:54 PM, Mathias Baumann said:

Paul,

the assassination could have happened anywhere. Think of the plots that failed in Chicago and Tampa. It was probably just a stroke of luck that it worked in Dallas.

I just chanced upon his highly interesting article that gives a lot of background information on the previous plots I'd been looking for a long time:

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-three-failed-plots-to-kill-jfk-the-historians-guide-on-how-to-research-his-assassination

The similarities are striking:

Chicago

Tampa

You're right there had to be a leader. But why General Walker? Why not, say Santos Trafficante or Carlos Marcello? We know that Mafia boss Johnny Roselli was friends with both David Morales and William Harvey, the CIA's experts in assassination. And we know that quite a number of mafia big shots were "silenced" when investigators started asking questions about the CIA-Mafia plots against Castro.

Mathias,

I think that Jim Garrison was correct in discounting the Mafia as a source of leadership for the JFK assassination.  They did not have enough guts for such a job.  They only did up-close hits, like the hit on Lee Harvey Oswald in the Dallas City Jailhouse.

There is plenty of evidence that the Mafia threw buckets of money at the JFK assassination -- but little evidence to suggest that they were leaders.  If you listen to Johnny Roselli, for example, the CIA were the leaders -- as far as he knew.

The Dallas attack on JFK was a paramilitary operation -- very sophisticated -- exactly the sort that any US General would have easily been able to design, coordinate and order his underlings to execute.

But to address your question about Chicago and Tampa -- I will not only cite Jeff Caufield (2015) but also the former FBI agent Don Adams (2012).

Don Adams was closely following FBI informant Willie Somerset during 1963, and Somerset was snitching on a Radical Right leader in Georgia named Joseph Milteer.  Joseph Milteer let loose in September (and at other times)  that he knew about the upcoming JFK assassination, but he didn't name Dallas.

Milteer said only that it would come "from an Office Building with a High-powered rifle."   Milteer also suggested that a Patsy would be picked up "within hours, to throw the public off."   This was before Chicago and before Tampa.  So, I agree with you, Matthew, that these earlier venues would have worked equally well with the Radical Right -- if all the conditions had been fitting.

It just so happened that Ex-General Walker actually lived in Dallas -- and he also had a tighter control over his Radical Right Minutemen there.  So, his chances were far higher.  Obviously, IMHO.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 16, 2017 by Paul Trejo
Mathias rather than Matthew

[Mathias Baumann]

16 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Matthew,

I think that Jim Garrison was correct in discounting the Mafia as a source of leadership for the JFK assassination.  They did not have enough guts for such a job.  They only did up-close hits, like the hit on Lee Harvey Oswald in the Dallas City Jailhouse.

There is plenty of evidence that the Mafia threw buckets of money at the JFK assassination -- but little evidence to suggest that they were leaders.  If you listen to Johnny Roselli, for example, the CIA were the leaders -- as far as he knew.

The Dallas attack on JFK was a paramilitary operation -- very sophisticated -- exactly the sort that any US General would have easily been able to design, coordinate and order his underlings to execute.

But to address your question about Chicago and Tampa -- I will not only cite Jeff Caufield (2015) but also the former FBI agent Don Adams (2012).

Don Adams was closely following FBI informant Willie Somerset during 1963, and Somerset was snitching on a Radical Right leader in Georgia named Joseph Milteer.  Joseph Milteer let loose in September (and at other times)  that he knew about the upcoming JFK assassination, but he didn't name Dallas.

Milteer said only that it would come "from an Office Building with a High-powered rifle."   Milteer also suggested that a Patsy would be picked up "within hours, to throw the public off."   This was before Chicago and before Tampa.  So, I agree with you, Matthew, that these earlier venues would have worked equally well with the Radical Right -- if all the conditions had been fitting.

It just so happened that Ex-General Walker actually lived in Dallas -- and he also had a tighter control over his Radical Right Minutemen there.  So, his chances were far higher.  Obviously, IMHO.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul,

I don't think that General Walker was more influential than the national syndicate of organized crime. And the Mafia had two powerful allies: the exile Cubans and CIA assassination specialists such as Bill Harvey and David Morales. It also had two very important motives to kill JFK:

1) Getting back Cuba and their multi-billion dollar business there.

2) Ending the Kennedy brothers' war on organized crime.

The assassins who carried out the ambush in Dealey Plaza were most likely battle-hardened Cuban exiles trained for Operation Mongoose. And the ambush was planned by Bill Harvey and David Morales.

I also think you're forgetting that JFK's brother was killed too. Who was behind that? General Walker?

[Paul Trejo]

On 8/13/2017 at 10:06 AM, Mathias Baumann said:

Paul,

I don't think that General Walker was more influential than the national syndicate of organized crime. And the Mafia had two powerful allies: the exile Cubans and CIA assassination specialists such as Bill Harvey and David Morales. It also had two very important motives to kill JFK:

1) Getting back Cuba and their multi-billion dollar business there.

2) Ending the Kennedy brothers' war on organized crime.

The assassins who carried out the ambush in Dealey Plaza were most likely battle-hardened Cuban exiles trained for Operation Mongoose. And the ambush was planned by Bill Harvey and David Morales.

I also think you're forgetting that JFK's brother was killed too. Who was behind that? General Walker?

Mathias,

I don't believe that General Walker was personally behind the murder of RFK, but I do believe that General Walker knew the culprits -- because from my reading the Radical Right was the killer of both JFK and RFK.

In the case of JFK, General Walker lived in Dallas and was in firm control of the Radical Right Minutemen in Dallas -- the Mafia was not.

Many people had motives to assassinate JFK -- the Secret Service tracked many such threats.   This is true of all US Presidents.

Many people were also skilled and capable of such a horrific act.

But only one JFK conspiracy was successful -- only one JFK conspiracy had such a firm control of Dallas Radicals that it was certain.

If you knew the actual US history of General Walker you'd realize that he was more motivated than any Mafia figure who ever lived.

Also, through Guy Banister and Gerry Patrick Hemming, we can surmise that General Walker had as much access to Cuban Exiles and Bay of Pigs survivors as anybody else.

Also, while Bill Harvey wrote up a scenario for Executive Action, and David Morales was experienced in this in Latin America -- Bill Harvey was in Italy for most of 1963 -- at best he was a cheerleader from the sidelines.  

David Morales, being in the CIA, was carefully watched.  He did participate, but he wasn't the leader.  David Morales took orders from somebody -- but it wasn't from the CIA high-command -- and this I surmise from Bill Simpich's brilliant work in 2014, in which he demonstrated the high-level CIA Mole Hunt which altered Lee Harvey Oswald's CIA 201 File.

Once again -- the connection of Marita Lorenz to the JFK assassination comes through Gerry Patrick Hemming, who had a written correspondence with General Walker in 1963.   Lee Harvey Oswald moved in their circle.

We have the names of plenty of people who confessed to the JFK assassination, Mathias -- but not until Jeff Caufield (2015) has anybody successfully connected all the dots between them all.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 15, 2017 by Paul Trejo
Mathias rather than Matthew

[Michael Clark]

9 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Matthew,

I don't believe that General Walker was personally behind the murder of RFK, but I do believe that General Walker knew the culprits -- because from my reading the Radical Right was the killer of both JFK and RFK.

In the case of JFK, General Walker lived in Dallas and was in firm control of the Radical Right Minutemen in Dallas -- the Mafia was not.

Many people had motives to assassinate JFK -- the Secret Service tracked many such threats.   This is true of all US Presidents.

Many people were also skilled and capable of such a horrific act.

But only one JFK conspiracy was successful -- only one JFK conspiracy had such a firm control of Dallas Radicals that it was certain.

If you knew the actual US history of General Walker you'd realize that he was more motivated than any Mafia figure who ever lived.

Also, through Guy Banister and Gerry Patrick Hemming, we can surmise that General Walker had as much access to Cuban Exiles and Bay of Pigs survivors as anybody else.

Also, while Bill Harvey wrote up a scenario for Executive Action, and David Morales was experienced in this in Latin America -- Bill Harvey was in Italy for most of 1963 -- at best he was a cheerleader from the sidelines.  

David Morales, being in the CIA, was carefully watched.  He did participate, but he wasn't the leader.  David Morales took orders from somebody -- but it wasn't from the CIA high-command -- and this I surmise from Bill Simpich's brilliant work in 2014, in which he demonstrated the high-level CIA Mole Hunt which altered Lee Harvey Oswald's CIA 201 File.

Once again -- the connection of Marita Lorenz to the JFK assassination comes through Gerry Patrick Hemming, who had a written correspondence with General Walker in 1963.   Lee Harvey Oswald moved in their circle.

We have the names of plenty of people who confessed to the JFK assassination, Matthew -- but not until Jeff Caufield (2015) has anybody successfully connected all the dots between them all.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

....

[Joe Bauer]

General Walker more motivated ( to kill JFK? ) than any Mafia leader who ever lived?

More motivated than viciously mega-mean Carlos Marcello who was personally humiliated by RFK when RFK  had him ( Marcello) arrested and deported by flying him to be dumped in Guatemala?

And Jimmy Hoffa?

 

[Joe Bauer]

Getting back to the original thread content;

Who knows better when their life is truly in danger than someone who has been a professional killer themselves?

Marita Lorenz knew fellow killer Frank Sturgis well enough to know what his true intent toward her was and how serious and capable he was in carrying this out when the NYPD became involved with her case and were requested to be there when Sturgis arrived at her apartment.

For Lorenz's daughter to take the most extreme, even panicked measure to protect her mother from Sturgis one can logically surmise that she also knew that Sturgis meant business in regards to preventing her mother from testifying further.

For Rothstein and his partner to be stealthily positioned with guns drawn upon Sturgis's entry into Marita's apartment, they also must have become convinced that Sturgis wasn't coming over for coffee and cookies and warm old memories chit-chat. 

My point being that the Sturgis harm to Marita threat was real.  

With that specific reality being accepted by Rothstein and partner,  I have questions regarding the other reality that these two were confronted with by Marita. That Sturgis was directly involved with killing JFK on 11,22,1963.

When Rothstein blurts out a congratulations to Sturgis regards Sturgis killing JFK , that pretty clearly indicates his being told this by Marita and that he believed this charge enough to throw it in Sturgis's face within minutes of arresting him.

Did Sturgis react to this mind blowing charge?  Did he admit or deny any involvement in all the one-on-one time Rothstein had with him?

Without actually being there to know everything that was said between Rothstein and Sturgis, all one can do is speculate about their conversations.

However, even considering the "good cop/bad cop" interrogation methodology,  I have a problem with Rothstein's  brothers-in-battle, Bay Of Pigs bonding comradery and congratulatory comment and handshake with Sturgis.

If I am dealing with someone I know ahead of time is a STONE COLD KILLER of scores of victims, as well as a nefariously well known prison time serving criminal ( Watergate ) and someone who I also now strongly suspect murdered my President, I would have to fight to keep myself from conversing with him in any manner and tone but angry disgust and disdain.

I couldn't hide my outrage!      

But, I guess if one is a long time career lawman who has seen it all regards deviancy and brutality, one would develop a harder outward shell and control of those emotions.

Still, I feel the good cop congratulatory comment and brothers-in-combat handshake from Rothstein to Sturgis was out-of-line in this particular instance and made me ponder the question of Rothstein's true personal feelings toward JFK and his murder, especially since Rothstein himself was a close up eyewitness to the deaths of many soldiers at the Bay Of Pigs and when it seems most participants in that incident blamed the death and failure there on JFK.

It was clearly admirable what Rothstein did to confront Sturgis and stop him from harming Marita Lorenz. And also the effort to have Sturgis held over for more investigation. No problems or questions there.

Oh, I want to edit in this question. Why would Sturgis even bring a bag or carrying case with a " change of clothes" to his meet up with Marita Lorenz?  I guess one could speculate that he planned to spend the night and these clothes were for the next day?  But, considering his threatening message words to Marita not long before this visit and Marita and her daughter's panic in response to them, one must doubt that Marita would allow him to stay there. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Joe Bauer

[Douglas Caddy]

On ‎8‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 8:57 AM, Joe Bauer said:

Doug, has Rothstein ever conveyed his personal feelings about JFK  to you?

Did Rothstein harbor any resentment and anger toward JFK regards the Bay Of Pigs?

When Rothstein describes in detail the death he personally witnessed in the waters there, it sounds as if he was deeply and negatively affected by this and one wonders who he blamed for it all.

I talked with Rothstein who told me that he was shocked and saddened, as were most people in America and around the world, at the assassination of JFK. Yet it cannot be denied that JFK had a legion of diverse persons and groups whom he had alienated. Unless one accepts the reality of "The Law of Eighth Avenue", where there are serious consequences for causing the deaths of others or breaking an agreement of momentous importance, the real world cannot be understood. Joseph Kennedy, stricken with a stroke, was unable to advise his two sons about the deadly consequences of allowing organized crime leaders to come to believe that they had been double-crossed both on getting rid of Castro so they could get back into Cuba with its casinos and on the brothers' overt war on organized crime itself.

Rothstein understood the resentment and anger toward JFK in regard to the Bay of Pigs. All those directly involved in the Bay of Pigs viewed that what happened there as being a seminal event, one that would inevitably lead to later developments. As Rothstein wrote in his account on Sturgis:

"The next three days were spent bringing survivors and bodies on board. Rothstein again manned Winch #2 and the bodies were brought aboard in cargo nets, dropped on the deck, put in boxes by Airedales and then taken to reefers. There were many cargo nets of bodies. The Bay of Pigs was lost and it would seal the fate of John Kennedy. Rothstein never forgets what happened and on dark lonely nights he will wake up and see the body’s as he dumped them on the deck, they never go away."

Let us now to focus on what Gaeton Fonzi concluded about Marita and Sturgis in his book, The Last Investigation:

“At any rate, Sturgis picked up that Eastern Airline ticket that Marita Lorenz had sent him and flew to his destiny in New York. In the end, the entire episode seemed to have about as much significance as "Cochise" pissing on a photographer. But, in retrospect, one result of this whole soap-opera scenario -- the factor that still feeds my suspicion of collusion -- was a successful diversion, from the Schweiker probe through to the House Assassinations Committee, of our limited investigation resources. And, in the process, it injected a dose of slapstick that would impair any future attempt to conduct a serious investigation into the possible involvement of E. Howard Hunt at Frank Sturgis in the Kennedy assassination.”

After Sturgis died, Rothstein had a conversation with Fonzi and explained what had really happened when Sturgis came to New York City to kill Marita. After listening to Rothstein, Fonzi exclaimed, “You mean he actually did plan to kill her?”  He was shocked at the revelation. Fonzi did not have the full picture until then.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Douglas Caddy

[Douglas Caddy]

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

Getting back to the original thread content;

Who knows better when their life is truly in danger than someone who has been a professional killer themselves?

Marita Lorenz knew fellow killer Frank Sturgis well enough to know what his true intent toward her was and how serious and capable he was in carrying this out when the NYPD became involved with her case and were requested to be there when Sturgis arrived at her apartment.

For Lorenz's daughter to take the most extreme, even panicked measure to protect her mother from Sturgis one can logically surmise that she also knew that Sturgis meant business in regards to preventing her mother from testifying further.

For Rothstein and his partner to be stealthily positioned with guns drawn upon Sturgis's entry into Marita's apartment, they also must have become convinced that Sturgis wasn't coming over for coffee and cookies and warm old memories chit-chat. 

My point being that the Sturgis harm to Marita threat was real.  

With that specific reality being accepted by Rothstein and partner,  I have questions regarding the other reality that these two were confronted with by Marita. That Sturgis was directly involved with killing JFK on 11,22,1963.

When Rothstein blurts out a congratulations to Sturgis regards Sturgis killing JFK , that pretty clearly indicates his being told this by Marita and that he believed this charge enough to throw it in Sturgis's face within minutes of arresting him.

Did Sturgis react to this mind'blowing charge? Did he admit or deny any involvement in all the one-on-one time Rothstein had with him?

Without actually being there to know everything that was said between Rothstein and Sturgis, all one can do is speculate about their conversations.

However, even considering the "good cop/bad cop" interrogation methodology, I have a problem with Rothstein's  brothers-in-battle, Bay Of Pigs bonding comradery and congratulatory comment and handshake with Sturgis.

If I am dealing with someone I know ahead of time is STONE COLD KILLER of scores of victims, as well as a nefariously well known prison time serving criminal ( Watergate ) and someone who I also now strongly suspect murdered my President, I would have to fight to keep myself from conversing with him in any manner and tone but angry disgust and disdain.

I couldn't hide my outrage!      

But, I guess if one is a long time career lawman who has seen it all regards deviancy and brutality, one would develop a harder outward shell and control of those emotions.

Still, I feel the good cop congratulatory comment and brothers-in-combat handshake from Rothstein to Sturgis was out-of-line in this particular instance and made me ponder the question of Rothstein's true personal feelings toward JFK and his murder, especially since Rothstein himself was a close up eyewitness to the deaths of soldiers at the Bay Of Pigs and whom it seems most participants blamed on JFK.

It was clearly admirable what Rothstein did to confront Sturgis and stop him from harming Marita Lorenz. And also the effort to have Sturgis held over for more investigation. No problems or questions there.

Oh, I want to edit in this question. Why would Sturgis even bring a bag or carrying case with a " change of clothes" to his meet up with Marita Lorenz?  I guess one could speculate that he planned to spend the night and these clothes were for the next day?  But, considering his threatening message words to Marita not long before this visit and Marita and her daughter's panic in response to them, one must doubt that Marita would allow him to stay there. 

 

 

 

 

Joe: Rothstein is uncertain why Sturgis had a clean change of clothes with him in an attaché case. He speculates that killing someone can be a messy affair with blood being spilled on the killer's attire (think of what Marita did to the escaped prisoner who wanted to rape her). Sturgis was a stone killer and may have learned from experience that having a clean change of clothes on hand to use after a murder makes getting away a lot easier.

[Paul Trejo]

3 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

General Walker more motivated ( to kill JFK? ) than any Mafia leader who ever lived?

More motivated than viciously mega-mean Carlos Marcello who was personally humiliated by RFK when RFK  had him ( Marcello) arrested and deported by flying him to be dumped in Guatemala?

And Jimmy Hoffa?

Joe,

The reason Ex-General Walker was more motivated to assassinate JFK than anybody else -- including Marcello and Hoffa -- was that JFK and RFK had sent Walker to an insane asylum in late 1962.  Far worse than Guatemala.

Also, it's a little known tidbit of history that General Walker wanted to be US President.  This was one reason he ran for Texas Governor in 1962, with help from H.L. Hunt.  Walker really was somebody in early 1962.  After he was sent to an insane asylum, however, he was effectively nobody.  Walker was super-motivated.

Again -- the connection of General Walker to Marita Lorenz is through Gerry Patrick Hemming, who was also connected to Frank Sturgis and to Loran Hall as well as to Lee Harvey Oswald.

All of these folks who were connected to Gerry Patrick Hemming confessed to the JFK plot in some way or another.  Hemming confessed to AJ Weberman, by my reading.  The CIA-did-it CTers don't have a complete stable of confessed assassins like the Walker-did-it CTers do.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 14, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Mathias Baumann]

4 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Joe,

The reason Ex-General Walker was more motivated to assassinate JFK than anybody else -- including Marcello and Hoffa -- was that JFK and RFK had sent Walker to an insane asylum in late 1962.  Far worse than Guatemala.

Also, it's a little known tidbit of history that General Walker wanted to be US President.  This was one reason he ran for Texas Governor in 1962, with help from H.L. Hunt.  Walker really was somebody in early 1962.  After he was sent to an insane asylum, however, he was effectively nobody.  Walker was super-motivated.

Again -- the connection of General Walker to Marita Lorenz is through Gerry Patrick Hemming, who was also connected to Frank Sturgis and to Loran Hall as well as to Lee Harvey Oswald.

All of these folks who were connected to Gerry Patrick Hemming confessed to the JFK plot in some way or another.  Hemming confessed to AJ Weberman, by my reading.  The CIA-did-it CTers don't have a complete stable of confessed assassins like the Walker-did-it CTers do.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul,

You could just as well link both Hemming and Sturgis to Howard Hunt or Mitch Werbell. But games of "who knew who" is not going to lead us anywhere. Sometimes I get the feeling that everybody somehow knew everybody in the far right / anti-Castro underground.

But there's one thing that makes me think that none those aforementioned played a central role in the assassination. Because all of them lived to tell their fancy stories. If we want to know who killed Kennedy we should follow the trail of blood. Who died an untimely death? George de Mohrenschild, Dorothy Killgallen, David Ferrie, Eladio del Valle, Johnny Roselli...