Deposition of Marita Lorenz in Hunt v. Weberman (1978)

[Douglas Caddy]

1 hour ago, David Andrews said:

Paul: Sturgis is arrested at the Watergate with Howard Hunt and James McCord, plus Cuban CIA flunkies.  Of course Sturgis/Fiorini isn't a CIA officer, but how is he not "company"?

Hunt and Liddy escaped from their room/headquarters at Watergate Hotel while the arrests of the five burglars were taking place between 1 to 2 am on June 17, 1972. Hunt went to his White House office in the Executive Office Building and telephoned me at 3:30 am and asked to come to my apartment. He arrived at 3:35 am.

Everyone should read Marita's deposition before sounding off about it. It is an eye-opener. In it Sturgis readily admitted to Marita that he worked for the CIA. He told her this while she was in Havana and was Castro's mistress and while Sturgis was a trusted member of Castro's inner circle. This is when he recruited her to work for the "company."

[Ron Ecker]

27 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Can Jennifer Lawrence be hot enough and intriguing enough for the portrayal of sultry and multilingual Marita?

 

If you don't think Jennifer Lawrence is hot enough, I can't help you.

 

 

[David Andrews]

9 minutes ago, Douglas Caddy said:

Hunt and Liddy escaped from their room/headquarters at Watergate Hotel while the arrests of the five burglars were taking place between 1 to 2 am on June 17, 1972. Hunt went to his White House office in the Executive Office Building and telephoned me at 3:30 am and asked to come to my apartment. He arrived at 3:35 am.

Everyone should read Marita's deposition before sounding off about it. It is an eye-opener. In it Sturgis readily admitted to Marita that he worked for the CIA. He told her this while she was in Havana and was Castro's mistress and while Sturgis was a trusted member of Castro's inner circle. This is when he recruited her to work for the "company."

I was speaking generally, Doug.  I understand that the ops at the hotel were arrested much later, after police and press investigation.  I am not knocking Marita's deposition per se, only asking Jim Hargrove what he makes of the "Oswald" described on the Miami-Dallas car trip, the dates of which Marita is conspicuously vague about.

Edited August 7, 2017 by David Andrews

[Douglas Caddy]

28 minutes ago, Chris Newton said:

Hey Doug, despite the position not being popular, I think there is much truth to her stories. I can't say i believe everything, she was a survivor and she wanted to protect her daughter and therefore could easily have fudged and recanted on events that she perceived were "unhealthy" to be heard talking about.

Marita did withhold at least one detail from her deposition. When she was in government protected status in a motel in the Miami area she agreed to let her guards get one night off. It was on this night that a prisoner who had escaped from the local jail entered her room while she was sleeping and held a knife against her throat. He wanted sex, to rape her. She played along until she was able to get her own knife and stabbed him. She says in her deposition that he fled then the room. In actuality, she did stab him but only after she had cut off his genitals. Some things maybe are best omitted from a deposition.  Detective James Rothstein estimates that Sturgis killed over 200 persons in his lifetime and Marita killed a minimum of a dozen. She talks in the deposition that no one could gain entry into the safe house in Miami until they proved they had knowledge of a killing. Death was a casual thing. She relates in the deposition how when two young boys got seasick on a mission run of some sort, Sturgis tossed them overboard into the ocean.

[Chris Newton]

11 minutes ago, Douglas Caddy said:

When she was in government protected status in a motel in the Miami area

I was a South Florida resident for 28 years and I can concur that life is still cheap if you are in the wrong neighborhood.

on a side note: I once had a short encounter with Richard Whatley, one of the gang that ran in the No Name Key/INTERPEN circles, through his youngest son who was a friend and  co-worker. Whatley Sr. was a mysterious, gruff and unsettling guy even then. in the late 1980's.

[Douglas Caddy]

1 hour ago, David Andrews said:

I was speaking generally, Doug.  I understand that the ops at the hotel were arrested much later, after police and press investigation.  I am not knocking Marita's deposition per se, only asking Jim Hargrove what he makes of the "Oswald" described on the Miami-Dallas car trip, the dates of which Marita is conspicuously vague about.

The dates of the Miami-Dallas trip were crucial to understanding what took place. Marita during the deposition should have been presented with a 1963 calendar and asked to circle the dates of the trip to the best of her memory.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

I think the Miami to Dallas trip described by Marita Lorenz is possible but hardly proved.  The questioning in the Hunt lawsuit was not very helpful in proving or disproving its validity.

Marita’s description of meeting American-born LEE Harvey Oswald in Florida at the time Russian-speaking Lee HARVEY Oswald was in Russia matches her HSCA testimony nicely. Here’s an excerpt of that testimony from my website (emphasis added):

Mr. Fithian: "Now is it your testimony that the first time you saw Oswald would have been in the camps in the Everglades?"
Marita Lorenz: "The very first time, no. I saw him in the Safehouse and then in the camps."
Mr. Fithian: "And that first meeting at the Safehouse would have been within a year of the Bay of Pigs?"
Marita Lorenz: "I would say 1960."
Mr. Fithian: "It would be some time during 1960?"
Marita Lorenz: "Late 1960."
Mr. Fithian: "All right. Now I want to be sure that I have your dates correct. You said the first meeting of LEE Harvey Oswald, the first time you saw him, was at a Safehouse in Miami in 1960."
Marita Lorenz: "Yes."
Mr. Fithian: "The next time or times that you saw him were during training at a camp in the Everglades, various places in the Everglades, in early 1960, 1961 period?"
Marita Lorenz: "Yes."
Mr. Fithian: "And after that you saw him at the Safehouse the second time?"
Marita Lorenz: "Yes."
Mr. Fithian: "What makes you so sure of the dates. Within a year of the first meeting in the Safehouse and the meeting at the camps in the Everglades, is there anything else you could match that up with?"
Marita Lorenz: "The photographs, the events that took place. the photographs that Alex (Rorke) took. Everywhere we went Alex took pictures."
Mr. Fithian: "This was prior to the Bay of Pigs?"
Marita Lorenz: "Yes, April, 1961, was the Bay of Pigs."
Mr. Fithian: "And you are sure you saw him (Oswald) before April, 1961."
Marita Lorenz: "Yes, because Alex took the pictures."
Mr. Fithian: "And the whole purpose of the training was to somehow participate or help in the Bay of Pigs.
Marita Lorenz: "Yes."
Mr. Fithian: "Did you see Oswald at any time in the intervening two years between early 1961 prior to April of 1961 and the September-October Safehouse meeting in 1963?"
Marita Lorenz: "No, but Frank (Sturgis) kept in touch with me. Alex kept in touch with me."
Mr. Fithian: "Mrs. Lorenz, has your attorney explained what perjury before a congressional committee is all about?"
Marita Lorenz: "That is right, yes."
Mr. Fithian: "In any way do you want to change your testimony on these dates?"
Marita Lorenz: "No, I do not."
Mr. Fithian: "There is adequate documentary evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald did not indeed return from the Soviet Union until June of 1962.
Marita Lorenz: "I don't know about that."
Mr. Fithian: "Therefore you could not have met him at the Safehouse in 1960, you could not have seen him in the Everglades in 1960 and 1961, and you could not have taken a picture in those areas and could not have a picture for the dates of that time." 
Marita Lorenz: "No?"
Mr. Fithian: "It is not possible."
Marita Lorenz: "I don't know about that."
Mr. Fithian: "Now can you explain to the committee why you gave us this false information as far as dates?"
Marita Lorenz: "I did not give you false information."
Mr. Fithian: "Mrs. Lorenz, I went over your testimony very carefully a moment ago and you assured me that you met Lee Harvey Oswald prior to the Bay of Pigs."
Marita Lorenz: "I did."
Mr. Fithian: "On two occasions."
Marita Lorenz: "Yes."
Mr. Fithian: "Lee Harvey Oswald was in Russia during that entire period."
Marita Lorenz: "I do not know that. I did not know that. The Lee Harvey Oswald that I met was the same in that picture, the one in the Safehouse. the same one that Frank knows. I do not know where he was according to your information. I do not know. I never read up on anything about these theories that are coming out about him."
Mr. Fithian: "This is not a matter of theory."
Marita Lorenz: "I know I am telling the truth. If you don't want it, that's too bad, you know. I am here to gain nothing, you know. Nothing. Nothing at all. You are trying a homicide investigation that should be solved, you know. Don't dispute me or put me on trial."
Mr. Fithian: "Only if we can have full and truthful testimony."
Marita Lorenz: "You have got it. You have it from me. I don't know about the other people. I have nothing to lose and nothing to hide-nothing.
Mr. Fithian: "And it is your testimony that you are certain that the person you met at the Safehouse and at the camps of the Everglades is the same person that you met in Dallas."
Marita Lorenz: "Yes, it is."
Mr. Fithian: "Do you have any explanation for how we come up with two Lee Harvey Oswalds during this period?"
Marita Lorenz: "I have no explanation. I know the man I met; he was a creep. I didn't like him. I don't have to be here at all. I have nothing to gain. 
Mr. Fithian: "Thank you. That is all."
 

[Paul Trejo]

17 hours ago, David Andrews said:

Paul: Sturgis is arrested at the Watergate with Howard Hunt and James McCord, plus Cuban CIA flunkies.  Of course Sturgis/Fiorini isn't a CIA officer, but how is he not "company"?

David,

Frank Sturgis was a Radical Right mercenary.  The CIA often exploited his type, but never hired them full time; they never had the "right stuff".

I mean, can you imagine Frank Sturgis doing paperwork?

Furthermore, Frank Sturgis was the only JFK plotter who openly boasted about it.  He was a glory hound -- not a team player.

Frank Sturgis was a hot head.  He fought alongside Fidel Castro and Che Guevara (and Interpen guys) in 1959 and was prized by Fidel for his fighting spirit.  Then he turned against Fidel and Che with an equal fighting spirit.  (In this sense Sturgis resembled Harry Dean.)

The people closest to Frank Sturgis were other hot heads like G. Gordon Liddy.

IMHO: the actor most fitting to portray Frank Sturgis in film would be a young Joe Pesci.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 8, 2017 by Paul Trejo
clarity

[Jim Hargrove]

One more thing I should have mentioned above….

Whether you believe Mrs. Lorenz’s testimony or find it too hard to swallow, she has been pretty consistent in her story of LHO in Florida in late 1960 as well as in her description of the automobile drive to Dallas a week before the assassination.  It is undeniable that she had associated with most of the principal players in her story.

In another part of her HSCA testimony, she said that “Jerry Patrick Hemming, Pedro Diaz Lanz, the Novos, Ozzie, Frank” and she and "Orlando" were in the cars traveling to Dallas “a week or so before November 22” with rifles in the trunk, several with scopes. “Ozzie” of course was Oswald , “Frank” was Frank Sturgis (Fiorini) and “Orlando” was Orlando Bosch.

If Marita’s testimony is reasonably true:

1.  There were clearly at least two political operatives named “Lee Harvey Oswald” active in the early 1960s.

2.  Most likely CIA-affiliated Frank Sturgis played an operational role in the assassination of JFK, which also draws a direct line from the assassination to Watergate.
 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Jim Hargrove

[Michael Clark]

27 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

David,

Frank Sturgis was a Radical Right mercenary.  The CIA often exploited his type, but never hired them full time; they never had the "right stuff".

Frank Sturgis was a hot head.  He fought along side Fidel Castro and Che Guevara (and Interpen guys) in 1959 and was prized by Fidel for his fighting spirit.

The people most similar to Frank Sturgis would be hot heads like Gordon Liddy.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Liddy was an attorney and FBI agent, county prosecutor, and ran for a congressional seat and eventually worked for the White House.

Sturgis was a college drop-put and cold blooded-killer.

Yet, Paul Trejo thinks they are fair comparison beceause he thinks they are hot-heads.

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Paul Trejo]

15 hours ago, Douglas Caddy said:

Everyone should read Marita's deposition before sounding off about it. It is an eye-opener. In it Sturgis readily admitted to Marita that he worked for the CIA. He told her this while she was in Havana and was Castro's mistress and while Sturgis was a trusted member of Castro's inner circle. This is when he recruited her to work for the "company."

Douglas,

IMHO, Frank Sturgis telling Marita Lorenz that he worked for the CIA is like Lee Harvey Oswald telling Marina Oswald that he had no associates, and that he took the bus everywhere -- and that he buried his rifle.

I believe that Marita honestly reported what Frank said -- but that doesn't mean that Frank told her the truth.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 8, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Douglas Caddy]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Douglas,

IMHO, Frank Sturgis telling Marita Lorenz that he worked for the CIA is like Lee Harvey Oswald telling Marina Oswald that he had no associates, and that he took the bus everywhere -- and that he buried his rifle.

I believe that Marita honestly reported what Frank said -- but that doesn't mean that Frank told her the truth.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

I met Frank Sturgis on June 17, 1972 around 9 a.m. in a substation jail of the Washington, D.C. Metropolitan Police Department. He was one of the arrested burglars and a long time associate of Howard Hunt, who recruited him for the burglary. Columnist Jack Anderson knew Sturgis and was surprised to see him in the Washington, D.C. National Airport where they had a conversation on one of the trips that Sturgis made for one of the DNC break-ins. There is plenty of evidence from various sources that ties Sturgis directly to the CIA.

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Douglas Caddy

[Michael Clark]

28 minutes ago, Douglas Caddy said:

I met Frank Sturgis on June 17, 1972 around 9 a.m. in a substation jail of the Washington, D.C. Metropolitan Police Department. He was one of the arrested burglars and a long time associate of Howard Hunt, who recruited him for the burglary. Columnist Jack Anderson knew Sturgis and was surprised to see him in the Washington, D.C. National Airport where they had a conversation on one of the trips that Sturgis made for one of the DNC break-ins. There is plenty of evidence from various sources that ties Sturgis directly to the CIA.

 

Hunt is clear that he believed that the plumbers (Himself, Sturgis and company) were breaking into Watergate and Ellisburg's office, not as matter of political intrigue, but as a CIA intelligence operation looking for evidence of international espionage.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

Sturgis testified at the Church Committee hearings and described himself as a CIA assassin and said he was also involved in "domestic" assassination plots.

His testimony begins here:

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=33941#relPageId=1&tab=page

[Paul Trejo]

3 hours ago, Douglas Caddy said:

I met Frank Sturgis on June 17, 1972 around 9 a.m. in a substation jail of the Washington, D.C. Metropolitan Police Department. He was one of the arrested burglars and a long time associate of Howard Hunt, who recruited him for the burglary. Columnist Jack Anderson knew Sturgis and was surprised to see him in the Washington, D.C. National Airport where they had a conversation on one of the trips that Sturgis made for one of the DNC break-ins. There is plenty of evidence from various sources that ties Sturgis directly to the CIA.

Douglas,

Various Mafia figures also described themselves as "CIA agents," simply because they were called upon to help assassinate Fidel Castro.

If (and only if) Frank Sturgis is a fabricator (as I think he is) then who can be surprised that he would describe himself as a CIA agent -- in order to justify his many misdeeds?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 8, 2017 by Paul Trejo