Did the Dallas Radical Right kill JFK?

[George Sawtelle]

Jason

"This S American stuff is relevant to JFK how exactly?"

I tried to link the murders of Patrice Lumumba and Jacobo Arbenz to the coups in the Congo and Guatemala, coups executed by the CIA. David Andrews corrected me by  posting Arbenz died 16 years after the coup in Guatemala, not shortly after the coup in Guatemala. I was wrong about Arbenz's death.

However S Allende was killed shortly after the coup in Chile, another CIA sponsored coup.

You stated earlier in a post that Dulles never murdered anyone. However I disagree. Allen Dulles is responsible, as director of the CIA at the time of the coups, not only for the coups but also for the murders of both Lumumba and Allende, who were both murdered as a result of the coups.

Allen Dulles stated that all his actions were cleared by higher authority but that does not absolve him for the murders of Lumumba and Allende.

[Andrej Stancak]

2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Andrej,

The following is my opinion.

1.  It was not ESSENTIAL for the Patsy to be working at the TSBD.     Not in the slightest.

2.  The only ESSENTIAL aspect was that the Patsy hand over his rifle.

3.   Gerry Patrick Hemming's rifle was also in the possession of the FBI on 11/22/1963.   There were likely plenty of others.

4.  LHO handed over his rifle early in the morning.

5.  At that point, all that was needed was to shoot LHO in the street.  Evidently, that was what JD Tippit was about to do when he himself was killed.

6.  LHO was already sufficiently sheep-dipped in NOLA to make an open and shut case.

7.  But the JFK plotters really wanted to give the impression of MULTIPLE Communists in the plot.   None of this LN baloney.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Thanks, Paul, for reading my comment and for adding yours.

So, do you think that Oswald's presence in the Depository could be just a random event because the rifle itself was enough to frame him? Let us suppose that a rifle traceable to Lee Harvey Oswald would be found on the sixth floor, however, Oswald would work e.g., in the package division at Love Field airport. They find a rifle, they find Lee the next day or so. One thing is not clear to me:  how would they make Oswald a patsy if Oswald would work at a distant place during the time of the assassination. How would they place him on the sixth floor of Depository? It was the rifle and the patsy himself who needed to be in the building, at least in my opinion. Let us find him a job in the Depository...

 

 

 

[Jason Ward]

9 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Thanks, Paul, for reading my comment and for adding yours.

So, do you think that Oswald's presence in the Depository could be just a random event because the rifle itself was enough to frame him? Let us suppose that a rifle traceable to Lee Harvey Oswald would be found on the sixth floor, however, Oswald would work e.g., in the package division at Love Field airport. They find a rifle, they find Lee the next day or so. One thing is not clear to me:  how would they make Oswald a patsy if Oswald would work at a distant place during the time of the assassination. How would they place him on the sixth floor of Depository? It was the rifle and the patsy himself who needed to be in the building, at least in my opinion. Let us find him a job in the Depository...

 

 

 

Hi Andrej,

Is it essential that the patsy be placed at one firing position versus any other?

The essential evidence is that Oswald ordered the assassination weapon, in his alias, sent to his PO Box....and was found with his alias ID documents on his person.  What's the difference between a patsy placed in the grassy knoll or on the triple overpass versus one placed at TSBD?

Jason

Edited October 12, 2017 by Jason Ward

[Andrej Stancak]

1 minute ago, Jason Ward said:

Hi Andrej,W

Is it essential that the patsy be placed at one firing position versus any other?

The essential evidence is that Oswald ordered the assassination weapon, in his alias, sent to his PO Box....and was found with his alias ID documents on his person.  What's the difference between a patsy placed in the grassy knoll or on the triple overpass versus one placed at TSBD?

Jason

2

Jason:

there is a great deal of difference having the patsy on the grassy knoll and in the Depository. The pasty would simply not comply with going from e.g., Love Field airport where he could have worked, to Dealey Plaza with his rifle (or you would think the rifle would be staged by someone at a different point in time?). He would hardly go behind the stockade fence if he could watch the parade from a much better vantage point. The patsy is someone not knowing that he will be accused. In the situation portrait, Oswald behind the stockade fence would already be the conspirator. So, how you would convince Oswald to go to grassy knoll? In contrast, it was not necessary to convince Lee about anything while he was in the Depository. He worked in that building, and he was therefore always at the right place.

 

[Mathias Baumann]

36 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Jason:

there is a great deal of difference having the patsy on the grassy knoll and in the Depository. The pasty would simply not comply with going from e.g., Love Field airport where he could have worked, to Dealey Plaza with his rifle (or you would think the rifle would be staged by someone at a different point in time?). He would hardly go behind the stockade fence if he could watch the parade from a much better vantage point. The patsy is someone not knowing that he will be accused. In the situation portrait, Oswald behind the stockade fence would already be the conspirator. So, how you would convince Oswald to go to grassy knoll? In contrast, it was not necessary to convince Lee about anything while he was in the Depository. He worked in that building, and he was therefore always at the right place.

 

Gilberto Lopez also worked in a building situated near the route of JFK's motorcade in Tampa.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Mathias Baumann

[Jason Ward]

47 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Jason:

there is a great deal of difference having the patsy on the grassy knoll and in the Depository. The pasty would simply not comply with going from e.g., Love Field airport where he could have worked, to Dealey Plaza with his rifle (or you would think the rifle would be staged by someone at a different point in time?). He would hardly go behind the stockade fence if he could watch the parade from a much better vantage point. The patsy is someone not knowing that he will be accused. In the situation portrait, Oswald behind the stockade fence would already be the conspirator. So, how you would convince Oswald to go to grassy knoll? In contrast, it was not necessary to convince Lee about anything while he was in the Depository. He worked in that building, and he was therefore always at the right place.

 

Andrej,

Who says Oswald has to be the patsy?

You are taking the facts as they are and trying to retroactively build a case around them by assuming the facts are immutable and unchangeable. Oswald may or may not have been the only Patsy candidate. The assassination may or may not have had to take place at Dealey Plaza, the assassination may or may not have had to take place in Dallas for that matter... And on and on. I just don't see any reason to assume that you have to take the facts as we know happened and believe they are unchangeable.

 

But ...perhaps you have a reason for assuming it has to be Oswald and for assuming it has to be Dealey Plaza, for assuming it has to be in Dallas... and so forth?

Regards

Jason

[Roger DeLaria]

 

 

 

 

[Andrej Stancak]

57 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

Andrej,

Who says Oswald has to be the patsy?

You are taking the facts as they are and trying to retroactively build a case around them by assuming the facts are immutable and unchangeable. Oswald may or may not have been the only Patsy candidate. The assassination may or may not have had to take place at Dealey Plaza, the assassination may or may not have had to take place in Dallas for that matter... And on and on. I just don't see any reason to assume that you have to take the facts as we know happened and believe they are unchangeable.

 

But ...perhaps you have a reason for assuming it has to be Oswald and for assuming it has to be Dealey Plaza, for assuming it has to be in Dallas... and so forth?

Regards

Jason

Jason:

I am amazed. It was certainly Oswald who was chosen to be patsy, and it was planned carefully ahead. Had patsy not been secured and the whole cover-up planned (including killing Oswald as soon as possible), the investigation would go in all possible directions and no stone would be left unturned.  A patsy could not be a random person. There may have been alternative patsies in Dallas, however, this has not been proven as far as I know. A patsy needed to have a credible profile justifying his evil act, such as being a Communist. His rifle had to be staged, or at least made traceable to the patsy, and this could not have been done post factum. It had to be done months ahead. A patsy is a precious thing which must be treasured and honed to just before the bitter end. 

The assassination had to occur at Dealey Plaza, and in Dallas, Texas. There could have been other venue for assassination, however, such alternative venue would need exactly the same amount of preparation as Delay Plaza. It would include Oswald (or then some other patsy of equivalent profile) being employed at that other location. The locations of shooters, the timing, the escape routes, all had to be planned ahead. This was a well-planned operation. 

Only Dallas offered a collaboration of powerful local people (Dallas Police, Mayor Cabell, Crichton, and quite a few other people) who represented the prevailing anti-Kennedy, anti-integration, anti-communist and anti-Catholic mood in that city in 1963. Dallas in 1963 had a very low threshold for political and non-political violence. Dallas was No. 1 in the number of murders in 1963.  In some schools, children cheered upon hearing about Kennedy's death. It was a nut country at that time.

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by Andrej Stancak

[Jason Ward]

3 hours ago, George Sawtelle said:

Jason

"This S American stuff is relevant to JFK how exactly?"

I tried to link the murders of Patrice Lumumba and Jacobo Arbenz to the coups in the Congo and Guatemala, coups executed by the CIA. David Andrews corrected me by  posting Arbenz died 16 years after the coup in Guatemala, not shortly after the coup in Guatemala. I was wrong about Arbenz's death.

However S Allende was killed shortly after the coup in Chile, another CIA sponsored coup.

You stated earlier in a post that Dulles never murdered anyone. However I disagree. Allen Dulles is responsible, as director of the CIA at the time of the coups, not only for the coups but also for the murders of both Lumumba and Allende, who were both murdered as a result of the coups.

Allen Dulles stated that all his actions were cleared by higher authority but that does not absolve him for the murders of Lumumba and Allende.

Hi George,

I think part of our disagreement is that we have different levels of precision in our use of vocabulary.

In layman's terms murder is the illegal taking of a human life.

There are many reasons why a man can take another man's life that do not qualify as murder because it is not illegal.

Tens of millions of Americans have killed other people perfectly with in the law and I count Dulles as one of them. This distinction is not merely a pedantic point of legal definition, as Dulles in his whole career has been very careful to do as he was told, follow orders, and commit all his actions within the law. There's simply no evidence whatsoever that Dulles is a serious criminal who would at age 70 contemplate the murder of his boss and risk the electric char... it's really ridiculous in any other context except the conspiracy imagination factory.

Regards

Jason

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by Jason Ward

[Jason Ward]

15 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Jason:

I am amazed. It was certainly Oswald who was chosen to be patsy, and it was planned carefully ahead. Had patsy not been secured and the whole cover-up planned (including killing Oswald as soon as possible), the investigation would go in all possible directions and no stone would be left unturned.  A patsy could not be a random person. There may have been alternative patsies in Dallas, however, this has not been proven as far as I know. A patsy needed to have a credible profile justifying his evil act, such as being a Communist. His rifle had to be staged, or at least made traceable to the patsy, and this could not have been done post factum. It had to be done months ahead. A patsy is a precious thing which must be treasured and honed to just before the bitter end. 

The assassination had to occur at Dealey Plaza, and in Dallas, Texas. There could have been other venue for assassination, however, such alternative venue would need exactly the same amount of preparation as Delay Plaza. It would include Oswald (or then some other patsy of equivalent profile) being employed at that other location. The locations of shooters, the timing, the escape routes, all had to be planned ahead. This was a well-planned operation. 

Only Dallas offered a collaboration of powerful local people (Dallas Police, Mayor Cabell, Crichton, and quite a few other people) who represented the prevailing anti-Kennedy, anti-integration, anti-communist and anti-Catholic mood in that city in 1963. Dallas in 1963 had a very low threshold for political and non-political violence. Dallas was No. 1 in the number of murders in 1963.  In some schools, children cheered upon hearing about Kennedy's death. It was a nut country at that time.

 

Andrej,

To my understanding of the evidence everything you said is assumption, but I invite you too post evidence that your assumptions are fact. There is no reason whatsoever that the people who covered up the crime are the same people that committed the crime. There is no reason whatsoever that the items linking Oswald to the murder weapon had to be created before the last week of November. There's no reason why it had to be in Dealey Plaza, there is no reason why Oswald had to be the Assassin, and as far as the cover-up goes there's no reason why he had to be a communist. 

I think my pivotal point is your assumption that the cover-up of the crime has to be committed by the same people who committed the crime - and there's no evidence of that whatsoever.

However, we are just stating opinion here so there's no point in arguing my opinion versus your opinion unless you want to post some documents or testimony to support your point of view... we can just agree to disagree. 

Regards,

 

Jason

 

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by Jason Ward

[George Sawtelle]

Jason

If you order a subordinate to kill you are just as guilty of murder as your subordinate who kills (on your orders). Killing in a wartime situation is different, i.e., soldiers are not guilty of murder during  a war battle. War crimes are of course different.

Lumumba and Allende were murdered during peace between our country and theirs.

The rest of your post above is your speculation.

Edited October 12, 2017 by George Sawtelle

[Andrej Stancak]

14 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

Andrej,

To my understanding of the evidence everything you said is just assumption but I thought you too post evidence that your assumptions are fact. There is no reason whatsoever that the people who covered up the crime are the same people that committed the crime. There is no reason whatsoever that the items linking Oswald to the murder weapon had to be created before the last week of November.

Jason:

I am not quoting Warren Commission report, or the FBI testimonies, however, I am interpreting the facts as they are known. For instance, the fact that Oswald received his rifle in March for which there was some evidence. I am aware of the problem with uncashed check for the rifle indicating that the purchase never happened. However, that partial evidence was made (or fabricated) back then, in February or March 1963. It was not possible to fabricate it later. 

There were few people who both took part in the killing the President, J.D. Tippit and Lee Oswald and in the cover-up. There were people who were blackmailed to take part in the cover-up. There were people who were simply ordered to assist in the cover-up, e.g. Hoover's agents. There were people who wanted to nail a Communist irrespective whether he committed any crime. And they were people who had some itching, however, preferred to fully collaborate in the cover-up to avoid a national and maybe international crisis.

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by Andrej Stancak

[Jason Ward]

26 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

It was not possible to fabricate it later

What specifically are you saying cannot be fabricated after April?

I'm aware of nothing that was essential by April at the latest but of course I'm listening.

 

Regards

Jason

PS you quoted my first draft before my spelling and syntax checks!   I need at least 10 minutes to review whatever I say!

[Andrej Stancak]

30 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

What specifically are you saying cannot be fabricated after April?

I'm aware of nothing that was essential by April at the latest but of course I'm listening.

 

Regards

Jason

PS you quoted my first draft before my spelling and syntax checks!   I need at least 10 minutes to review whatever I say!

Jason:

I did not write after April, I meant after Kennedy's assassination. It would be too late to fabricate evidence such as association with the rifle within 1 day.

 

 

[Jason Ward]

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

However, that partial evidence was made (or fabricated) back then, in February or March 1963. It was not possible to fabricate it later. 

Andrej,

What are you referring to here?   What evidence couldn't be fabricated later?

 

Regards

Jason