Did the Dallas Radical Right kill JFK?

[George Sawtelle]

Jason

I hope you're not trying to give Allen Dulles the Nuremberg defense, i.e., he is not guilty of murder because he was ordered by his boss. It didn't go over then and it won't go over now.

Allen Dulles is not the Mr. Nice Guy that you think he is.

 

 

 

 

       

[Michael Clark]

40 minutes ago, George Sawtelle said:

Jason

I hope you're not trying to give Allen Dulles the Nuremberg defense, i.e., he is not guilty of murder because he was ordered by his boss. It didn't go over then and it won't go over now.

Allen Dulles is not the Mr. Nice Guy that you think he is.

 

 

 

 

       

George, that's what I am seeing. One step from endorsing the JFK assassination itself. I've felt the same vibe from Trejo as well.

[Harry J.Dean]

Jason, here are some excerpts from the 1990 manuscript/book CROSSTRAILS (until more copies are available).

Page(s) 19 Chap.2.

When the name of a  Fair Play For Cuba Committee Communist was broadcast throughout the rightist circuit 

after the airing of an August, 1963 radio program from station WDSU, New Orleans, Louisiana, Lee Oswald

was "selected" by another of our JBS associates, retired  U.S. Army General E.A. Walker of Dallas, Texas. The

subject was then chosen by Guy Gabaldon as "the fall guy" in that secretive plot against Kennedy. None of us

objected, and found it humorous to frame a Communist. I quietly considered it as goofy as the weird, but hazy,

arrangements to kill the president. 

[Paul Trejo]

11 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Paul,

you say the patsy "handed over" his rifle. It's been shown that the paper bag that Oswald brought to work was too small to carry the Mannlicher Carcano rifle. So when and where exactly did Oswald "hand over his rifle"? And what was he hiding in the paper bag? Curtain rods?

Mathias,

I've no intention of fighting over opinions about how LHO's rifle got onto the 6th floor of the TSBD building.

I will tell you once -- and I will hear your opinion once -- and I will drop the topic for this thread -- I have debated this for YEARS in the Forum.

In my opinion, the account of Gerry Patrick Hemming (a former member of this Forum) to A.J. Weberman (a current member of this Forum) is the correct one. 

The eye-witnesses to the alleged paper bag (Buell Frazier and Linnie Mae Randle) were inconsistent because self-interested -- that is, any factual knowledge they had of Oswald taking a rifle into the TSBD would be counted against them as conspiracy to commit murder.  Buell himself was given an immediate lie-detector test -- it was that serious.   So, their accuracy to recall was compromised.

As I recollect the account -- Gerry Patrick Hemming told A.J. Weberman that he contacted Lee Harvey Oswald from Miami and offered to buy Oswald's rifle for double its worth if he would bring it to the TSBD on Friday morning.   Oswald agreed and did so -- utterly unsuspecting, because he firmly believed in his comrades on the Radical Right.

Insofar as nobody saw Oswald enter the TSDB building with any package -- I surmise that Oswald handed over to a confederate of Gerry Patrick Hemming somewhere between the parking lot and the entrance of the TSBD.   I will accept this account until A.J. Weberman himself tells me that I have it wrong.

I have heard ALL of the other arguments for DECADES and I am not impressed with any of them.  Hemming, by this account, confessed to a deliberate role in the JFK assassination.  I take Gerry Patrick Hemming (and other Interpen mercenaries) as a JFK conspirator and part of the Radical Right.

I will hear your opinion on Oswald's rifle once, Mathias -- out of courtesy.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited October 13, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

11 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

So was the Secret Service part of the "Radical Right"?

Mathias,

The following is my opinion:

1.  The Secret Service has two broad parts -- the Headquarters in Washington DC, and the local offices in each large US city.

2.  The Secret Service Headquarters in Washington DC was not now, nor ever was, a part of the Radical Right.

3. However, individual members at local offices in large US cities, like Dallas, could more easily go rogue, and some did.

4.  It is my opinion that Forrest Sorrels, who was also present during the last hours of the life of Lee Harvey Oswald, was a rogue Secret Service agent from the Dallas office, who cooperated with the Radical Right.

5.  It is my opinion that no member of the Secret Service from Washington DC was aware of the JFK plot, nor engaged in it.

6.  It is my opinion that the Secret Service was to blame, however, for the breakdown in US Government leading to JFK's death.

7.  The department in the Secret Service that failed was the so called "PRS," or "Protective Research Section" of the Secret Service.

8.  It was the duty of the PRS to contact the local FBI in each city, to determine if there were any dangerous people in any city in which the US President would visit -- that would constitute a danger to the US President.

9.  For JFK's visit to Dallas in November 1963, the PRS asked the Dallas FBI for dangerous people.  The Dallas FBI replied, "NONE."

10.  The PRS asked the Dallas FBI, "are you sure?"   Because it is extremely rare to get an answer of "NONE" to this question.

11.  The Dallas FBI replied, "Yes, we are sure."

12.  The PRS asked the Dallas FBI -- who published these handbills, WANTED FOR TREASON: JFK (which had circulated for weeks in Dallas before 11/22/1963).   

13.  The Dallas FBI replied -- "We have tried to find out, and we don't know."

14.  The PRS replied, "OK, thank you.   All systems are go."

THAT was the breakdown.  That scenario was admitted under oath by all relevant WC witnesses from the Secret Service and the FBI.  All of them.

It was the breakdown because the Dallas FBI and SS knew for a fact that the Radical Right in Dallas was dangerous as hell.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

9 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Thanks, Paul, for reading my comment and for adding yours.

So, do you think that Oswald's presence in the Depository could be just a random event because the rifle itself was enough to frame him? Let us suppose that a rifle traceable to Lee Harvey Oswald would be found on the sixth floor, however, Oswald would work e.g., in the package division at Love Field airport. They find a rifle, they find Lee the next day or so. One thing is not clear to me:  how would they make Oswald a patsy if Oswald would work at a distant place during the time of the assassination. How would they place him on the sixth floor of Depository? It was the rifle and the patsy himself who needed to be in the building, at least in my opinion. Let us find him a job in the Depository...

Andrej,

The following is my opinion.

There was no need to place Oswald's place of employment in the TSBD.  The JFK Kill Team only needed to have possession of Oswald's rifle.  They could have claimed to have found it in the bushes -- in the grassy knoll -- behind a car -- anywhere.

Remember -- please -- that there were eye-witnesses around the TSBD building who told police immediately after the shooting that they had seen a rifle and a shooter at a 6th floors window of the TSBD -- yet it took Dallas police over 40 minutes to gather at the 6th floor, to "seek" the murder weapon.   Who can doubt that Oswald's rifle was placed there?    So, it could have been placed anywhere.

The key is that they had his rifle -- and that he lived somewhere in Dallas.   All they had to do now was shoot him on sight.  The rifle and the NOLA episode would have been enough to convict him in the eyes of most the world.  We know this is true, because that is exactly what most people still believe.

The TSBD was entirely optional. 

If Oswald had not worked in the TSBD, then his rifle would not have been "found" in the TSBD.   It did not matter to the JFK Kill Team, who really wanted the public to believe this was a Communist Team Plot -- with lots of shooters.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Andrej Stancak]

2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Andrej,

The following is my opinion.

There was no need to place Oswald's place of employment in the TSBD.  The JFK Kill Team only needed to have possession of Oswald's rifle.  They could have claimed to have found it in the bushes -- in the grassy knoll -- behind a car -- anywhere.

Remember -- please -- that there were eye-witnesses around the TSBD building who told police immediately after the shooting that they had seen a rifle and a shooter at a 6th floors window of the TSBD -- yet it took Dallas police over 40 minutes to gather at the 6th floor, to "seek" the murder weapon.   Who can doubt that Oswald's rifle was placed there?    So, it could have been placed anywhere.

The key is that they had his rifle -- and that he lived somewhere in Dallas.   All they had to do now was shoot him on sight.  The rifle and the NOLA episode would have been enough to convict him in the eyes of most the world.  We know this is true, because that is exactly what most people still believe.

The TSBD was entirely optional. 

If Oswald had not worked in the TSBD, then his rifle would not have been "found" in the TSBD.   It did not matter to the JFK Kill Team, who really wanted the public to believe this was a Communist Team Plot -- with lots of shooters.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

Paul:

I agree that the conspirators needed to have Oswald's rifle and to stage the 6th-floor scene to point to Oswald. However, Oswald also needed to be in the building on the day of the assassination, basically to work there. If he worked e.g., at Love Field airport, which was the better-paid job offer suppressed by Ruth Paine, he would have an alibi for the time of the assassination. Would the "JFK Kill team" travel to Love Field airport and kill poor Oswald while he was moving pieces of luggage around the airport? When would they do it? Maybe after tracing the ownership of the rifle. However, that would lead to a non-existing A. Hiddell, not Oswald. How would they connect Hiddell with the Love Field worker Oswald? 

The hunt for Oswald started not because of knowing that the rifle was his own but because he was reported missing in a most suspicious roll-call which most likely never happened. 

Thus, the conspirators really needed both the rifle and Oswald in the building.  

 

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by Andrej Stancak

[Andrej Stancak]

8 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Andrej,

What are you referring to here?   What evidence couldn't be fabricated later?

 

Regards

Jason

The money order to  Klein Sporting Goods and subsequent bank transfer forms.

[Paul Trejo]

10 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Paul:

I agree that the conspirators needed to have Oswald's rifle and to stage the 6th-floor scene to point to Oswald.

However, Oswald also needed to be in the building on the day of the assassination, basically to work there. If he worked e.g., at Love Field airport, which was the better-paid job offer suppressed by Ruth Paine, he would have an alibi for the time of the assassination.

Would the "JFK Kill team" travel to Love Field airport and kill poor Oswald while he was moving pieces of luggage around the airport?  ...

Andrej,

The following is my opinion:

I disagree that the conspirators needed to stage the 6th floor scene to point to Oswald -- that was OPTIONAL.

Nor did Oswald even need to be in the TSBD that day.  If Oswald worked at Love Field, he would have had a confederate of Gerry Patrick Hemming drive him to Dealey Plaza for the fireworks.   It was NO PROBLEM.

The JFK plot was far more flexible than you're allowing.     NOLA, Oswald's rifle, Oswald's corpse.   Case closed.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited October 13, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Andrej Stancak]

2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Andrej,

The following is my opinion:

I disagree that the conspirators needed to stage the 6th floor scene to point to Oswald -- that was OPTIONAL.

Nor did Oswald even need to be in the TSBD that day.  If Oswald worked at Love Field, he would have had a confederate of Gerry Patrick Hemming drive him to Dealey Plaza for the fireworks.   It was NO PROBLEM.

The JFK plot was far more flexible than you're allowing.     NOLA, Oswald's rifle, Oswald's corpse.   Case closed.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

1

Paul:

Oswald and Hemming would watch the motorcade at Dealey Plaza. How does this make Oswald a patsy? His rifle would be stashed somewhere, however, Oswald would be seen watching  the  motorcade,  and maybe running towards the grassy knoll with other people.  The next day, the FBI would associate the rifle with A. Hiddell. Where is Oswald the patsy in it?  He would return with Gerry back to trolleys at Love Field airport. 

The real scenario as it occurred was also the planned scenario, it was not a result of random co-incidences. It required the presence of Oswald in the building from which shots rang out and where his rifle was found.  It looks so obvious to me. 

 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by Andrej Stancak

[Mathias Baumann]

14 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Mathias,

I've no intention of fighting over opinions about how LHO's rifle got onto the 6th floor of the TSBD building.

I will tell you once -- and I will hear your opinion once -- and I will drop the topic for this thread -- I have debated this for YEARS in the Forum.

In my opinion, the account of Gerry Patrick Hemming (a former member of this Forum) to A.J. Weberman (a current member of this Forum) is the correct one. 

The eye-witnesses to the alleged paper bag (Buell Frazier and Linnie Mae Randle) were inconsistent because self-interested -- that is, any factual knowledge they had of Oswald taking a rifle into the TSBD would be counted against them as conspiracy to commit murder.  Buell himself was given an immediate lie-detector test -- it was that serious.   So, their accuracy to recall was compromised.

As I recollect the account -- Gerry Patrick Hemming told A.J. Weberman that he contacted Lee Harvey Oswald from Miami and offered to buy Oswald's rifle for double its worth if he would bring it to the TSBD on Friday morning.   Oswald agreed and did so -- utterly unsuspecting, because he firmly believed in his comrades on the Radical Right.

Insofar as nobody saw Oswald enter the TSDB building with any package -- I surmise that Oswald handed over to a confederate of Gerry Patrick Hemming somewhere between the parking lot and the entrance of the TSBD.   I will accept this account until A.J. Weberman himself tells me that I have it wrong.

I have heard ALL of the other arguments for DECADES and I am not impressed with any of them.  Hemming, by this account, confessed to a deliberate role in the JFK assassination.  I take Gerry Patrick Hemming (and other Interpen mercenaries) as a JFK conspirator and part of the Radical Right.

I will hear your opinion on Oswald's rifle once, Mathias -- out of courtesy.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul,

Frazier's testimony has always puzzled me, because I never believed Oswald's story about the curtain rods. Your explanation - that Frazier was afraid of being charged as a confederate of Oswald's - makes a lot of sense I think.

However, I'm sure you're aware that Pat Speer has shown that there numerous questions concerning the official story of the paper bag --> http://www.patspeer.com/chapter-4c

Gerry Patrick Hemming is certainly an interesting character. I'm sure there's a kernel of truth to some of his stories, but at least a few have turned out to be disinformation.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Mathias Baumann

[Mathias Baumann]

21 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Andrej,

To my understanding of the evidence everything you said is assumption, but I invite you too post evidence that your assumptions are fact. There is no reason whatsoever that the people who covered up the crime are the same people that committed the crime. There is no reason whatsoever that the items linking Oswald to the murder weapon had to be created before the last week of November. There's no reason why it had to be in Dealey Plaza, there is no reason why Oswald had to be the Assassin, and as far as the cover-up goes there's no reason why he had to be a communist. 

I think my pivotal point is your assumption that the cover-up of the crime has to be committed by the same people who committed the crime - and there's no evidence of that whatsoever.

However, we are just stating opinion here so there's no point in arguing my opinion versus your opinion unless you want to post some documents or testimony to support your point of view... we can just agree to disagree. 

Regards,

 

Jason

 

 

Jason,

if you compare the backgrounds of Oswald and Gilberto Lopez you'll realize that the plotters chose their patsies very carefully. Both men had been to Russia, both had been in fights with anti-Castro exiles, both were associated with the Fairplay for Cuba Commitee, both had traveld to Mexico shortly before the assassination etc.

And Dealey Plaza had that peculiar "dog leg" curve, so the crime scene was also chosen deliberately. The plotters left nothing to chance.

[Paul Trejo]

4 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Paul:

Oswald and Hemming would watch the motorcade at Dealey Plaza. How does this make Oswald a patsy? His rifle would be stashed somewhere, however, Oswald would be seen watching  the  motorcade,  and maybe running towards the grassy knoll with other people.  The next day, the FBI would associate the rifle with A. Hiddell. Where is Oswald the patsy in it?  He would return with Gerry back to trolleys at Love Field airport. 

The real scenario as it occurred was also the planned scenario, it was not a result of random co-incidences. It required the presence of Oswald in the building from which shots rang out and where his rifle was found.  It looks so obvious to me. 

Andrej,

The following is my opinion:

1. Given that Lee Harvey Oswald handed over his rifle that morning to a confederate of Gerry Patrick Hemming ... THEN

2.  After the JFK assassination, that confederate -- virtually anywhere in Dallas -- would simply have to shoot Oswald in cold blood.

3.  The confederate (and his confederates) would simply "find" Oswald's rifle anywhere at Dealey Plaza.  The bushes would be OK.

4.  Establishing that Lee Harvey Oswald (4.1) owned that rifle; and (4.2) was a Communist with his own FPCC in New Orleans, then: (4.3) Case Closed!

It's far less complicated than you're making it.  It seems to me you are bringing a half-century of baggage along with the case.  It's easier than that.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

3 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Paul,

...Gerry Patrick Hemming is certainly an interesting character. I'm sure there's a kernel of truth to some of his stories, but at least a few have turned out to be disinformation.

Mathias,

When Gary Patrick Hemming was a member of this Forum back at the turn of the century, he was often just as cryptic as he was during most of his interviews -- but he once shed a bright light on the reason he was so cryptic.

He told us that in the Radical Right underground, so many people had swindled rich people by promising to kill JFK and taking money, that when JFK was finally killed, these swindlers returned to their rich prey, and blackmailed them, demanding more money or they would tell the police that these rich folks gave money to kill JFK.

So -- after the JFK assassination, a lot of rich people hired mafia hit-men to kill these Radical Right blackmailers!   There were so many of these cases, said Garry Patrick Hemming, that anytime anybody seemed too talkative about the JFK assassination, these rich folks would just hire another mafia hit-man to kill them!

It was a regular cottage industry!

That is why Gerry Patrick Hemming said he would never tell the truth -- there were too many people who were now paranoid that THEY were going to be fingered for giving money to this or that person who promised to kill JFK -- and nobody really knew WHICH money went to the real killers!   So, mafia hit-men were having a field day!

Hemming said he was truly afraid of being targeted by some paranoid rich idiot who had nothing to do with the JFK assassination, but thought he might because he once gave a Radical Right boaster some money.  There were HUNDREDS of these people, he implied.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited October 13, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

4 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Paul

...The real scenario as it occurred was also the planned scenario, it was not a result of random co-incidences. It required the presence of Oswald in the building from which shots rang out and where his rifle was found.  It looks so obvious to me. 

Andrej,

The following is my opinion.  Whoever "found" the rifle of Lee Harvey Oswald on the 6th floor of the TSBD was certainly a part of the JFK plot to kill JFK and blame Oswald.

One way to trace the JFK Kill Team is this: (1) go to the WC testimonies and identify the first three people who "found" Oswald's rifle at the TSBD.  (2) Find out who their immediate bosses were.  (3) There you go.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo