Did the Dallas Radical Right kill JFK?

[George Sawtelle]

Jason

Dulles is directly responsible for the coups in Guatemala and the Congo. He admitted that he overthrew the two governments and was proud of it. See pg 175, "The Brothers", Stephen Kinzer

 He therefore is responsible for the murders of Arbenz, his entire family and Patrice Lumumba.

[George Sawtelle]

DP

Edited October 11, 2017 by George Sawtelle

[David Andrews]

Actually, Arbenz and his family went into exile in Europe, then lived in South America.  His daughter got into drugs and died, more than a decade after the coup.  Sixteen years after the coup, Arbenz sickened and died under circumstances not fully explained.  It was the great feather in CIA's cap that it had gotten Arbenz to flee Guatemala using only the smoke-and-mirrors threat of an armed overthrow.  Howard Hunt later encountered Arbenz in a swank restaurant and gloated over his ruin.  

Edited October 11, 2017 by David Andrews

[George Sawtelle]

David

Was it Trujillo who was placed in boiling water? I thought it was Arbenz.

[Jason Ward]

George,

This S American Dulles stuff is relevant to JFK how exactly?

Jason

Edited October 11, 2017 by Jason Ward

[Paul Brancato]

5 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Paul B.,

The following is my opinion.

Yes, it is known in solid detail.  The Mary Ferrell web site has the full FBI and German BND documentation of the interviews of the day that 29 November 1963 article came out.  

The German BND took it very seriously, and contacted Gerhard Frey (the editor) immediately, demanding to see the writer, Hasso Thorston.  However, there was no such person.  That was only a pen name.  The real writer was Helmet Hubert Muench.

The German BND swooped up Helmet Hubert Muench and put him under a bright light.  He sang like a bird.  Mary Ferrell has the whole story, word for word.  There's several pages to this story.

Walker and Frey were old pals.  Frey put Muench up to it.   Edwin Walker arranged the whole thing.  Frey added that part about RFK, from what Meunch could tell.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Thanks for answering Paul but I don't understand. Who initiated the first phone contact between Walker and Frey, or Muench, whoever it was, a day after the assassination, that eventually led to the article published on Nov. 29?

[Jason Ward]

19 hours ago, Harry J.Dean said:

Jason, re; Note to Hoover 19 Nov. 1963 on page 21. reason for it the Los Angeles office said they could do nothing about my FPCC/Senate exposure so wrote to Hoover

that it was being overlooked at this level, and  requesting his possible help.  As then I was involved with the LA office in both pro and anti-Castro efforts, e g; JURE, Alpha 66

FPCC,  Erquiaga Arms Co,  Minutemen, and related rightest political activities. Below some examples will show up inFBI reports.

 

JURE re; arms purchase request, Pasadena, CA.

ALPHA 66, re; it's LA leadership LA

FPCC re; it's activities LA. these contacts netted Castro G2 agent.

Others.

 

Am out of CROSSTRAILS, will have more copies soon.

 

 

 

 

Let me know when Contrails is available, please.

Jason

[David Andrews]

1 hour ago, George Sawtelle said:

David

Was it Trujillo who was placed in boiling water? I thought it was Arbenz.

Trujillo was ambushed by close-range rifle fire on a Dominican highway.  You're thinking of the anti-Trujillo professor whom Trujillo allegedly had kidnapped from New York and allegedly brought back to Santo Domingo to endure that alleged torture and death.  There are no reliable witnesses to the rumored fate.

[Paul Trejo]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

Thanks for answering Paul but I don't understand. Who initiated the first phone contact between Walker and Frey, or Muench, whoever it was, a day after the assassination, that eventually led to the article published on Nov. 29?

Paul B.,

Here's how I recall the sequence.   Early in the morning 4am CST, Edwin Walker from a hotel room in Lousiana, called DNZ newspaper editor, Gerhard Frey in Germany, with a scoop:  Oswald had also been Walker's shooter back in April.

The DNZ (Deutsche National-Zeitung) was a weekend newspaper.   This scoop was too late for that weekend, but it would be published the following weekend, on Friday 29 November 1963.

Around 5am CST on Saturday 23 November 1963, Gerhard Frey called his reporter, Helmut Muench, with instructions to call and interview former US General Edwin Walker at his Louisiana hotel room approximately 6am.  The story was to be about the JFK assassination, with special attention to the relationship between Oswald and the former General Walker -- still beloved among many  rightists in Germany.

Helmut Meunch -- alias Hasso Thorsten -- called Edwin Walker about an hour later at that Louisiana hotel room, and conducted the interview.  This was early Saturday morning, about 18 hours after the JFK assassination.

The next day, Sunday 24 November 1963, after Lee Harvey Oswald was murdered at the Dallas City Jail, Hasso Thorsten called Edwin Walker again, for an update on the JFK assassination.  During that week, the DMZ editor, Gerhard Frey, rearranged the article several times. 

It was the opinion of Helmut Muench that Gerhard Frey decided to add the sentence that RFK had released Lee Harvey Oswald from a Dallas jail at midnight on April 10, 1963.

Whoever started that part of the rumor, it is certain that Edwin Walker believed it with all of his heart for the rest of his life -- and perhaps even before that day. 

Only 12 days after RFK was assassinated, this is what Edwin Walker wrote (in part) in his bulletin to the Friends of Walker Society from his desk in Dallas:

If authority in the hands of the Attorney General and the Justice Department had not seen fit to free Oswald and his associates in the attempted assassination of Edwin A. Walker -- there is no reason to doubt that President John F. Kennedy and Senator Robert F. Kennedy would be alive today.  (Edwin Walker, 6/18/1968)

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited October 12, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Brancato]

Paul - are you sure Walker initiated the first call? 

Are you sure he told Frey that Oswald had shot at him? Is this proven or conjecture? How do we know who said what when? 

what can you tell me about Frey's history? Relationship to Walker? Muench's history or relationship to Walker?

note - I'm not disbelieving you, just trying to be really sure of what is a fact. 

Edited October 12, 2017 by Paul Brancato

[Paul Trejo]

11 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Paul - are you sure Walker initiated the first call? 

Are you sure he told Frey that Oswald had shot at him? Is this proven or conjecture? How do we know who said what when? 

what can you tell me about Frey's history? Relationship to Walker? Muench's history or relationship to Walker?

note - I'm not disbelieving you, just trying to be really sure of what is a fact. 

Paul B.,

Don't take my word for it.   Look it up on the Mary Ferrell web site.  It's all free for the taking.   It's dozens of pages, so it isn't a walk in the park.  But it's all there.

The most important part is the BND interview of Helmut Muench.

By the way, in his WC testimony, General Walker swore that he had no idea who Helmut Muench was.

But he claimed he knew Hasso Thorsten.

We have no other evidence -- it seems that Gerhard Frey (who knew Walker previously in Germany, according to Mae Brussell)  deliberately told Walker that his interviewer was named 'Hasso Thorsten.' and deliberately withheld from Walker that this was only an alias for Helmut Muench.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 12:11 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

...However, having Lee Oswald working in the building in November and to get him there several weeks ahead of the assassination was essential. Without Lee being in that building, there would not be any patsy. Without a patsy, a full investigation would be in place and continued until solving the case. The patsy needed to be sheep-dipped (New Orleans), kept as inconspicuous as possible during the weeks preceding the assassination, and placed at the right spot at the right time.  

Andrej,

The following is my opinion.

1.  It was not ESSENTIAL for the Patsy to be working at the TSBD.     Not in the slightest.

2.  The only ESSENTIAL aspect was that the Patsy hand over his rifle.

3.   Gerry Patrick Hemming's rifle was also in the possession of the FBI on 11/22/1963.   There were likely plenty of others.

4.  LHO handed over his rifle early in the morning.

5.  At that point, all that was needed was to shoot LHO in the street.  Evidently, that was what JD Tippit was about to do when he himself was killed.

6.  LHO was already sufficiently sheep-dipped in NOLA to make an open and shut case.

7.  But the JFK plotters really wanted to give the impression of MULTIPLE Communists in the plot.   None of this LN baloney.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited October 12, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Brancato]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Paul B.,

Don't take my word for it.   Look it up on the Mary Ferrell web site.  It's all free for the taking.   It's dozens of pages, so it isn't a walk in the park.  But it's all there.

The most important part is the BND interview of Helmut Muench.

By the way, in his WC testimony, General Walker swore that he had no idea who Helmut Muench was.

But he claimed he knew Hasso Thorsten.

We have no other evidence -- it seems that Gerhard Frey (who knew Walker previously in Germany, according to Mae Brussell)  deliberately told Walker that his interviewer was named 'Hasso Thorsten.' and deliberately withheld from Walker that this was only an alias for Helmut Muench.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Yes I've seen some of the written evidence. Btw Frey was a nazi, which is most likely what drew Mae Brussell's attention. I'm thinking of resurrecting an old thread on Walker and Frey - which I can't find now! But I did read that Frey and Gehlen were well acquainted.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Paul Brancato

[Mathias Baumann]

21 hours ago, George Sawtelle said:

Mathias

There is evidence that says otherwise. Suggest you read educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/18853-the-route-to-kennedys-assassination/.

Thank you George, that thread is very enlightening. Especially the following post:

 

Quote

The original route, which was to take the motorcade straight down Main Street, was printed on the front page of the November 22, 1963 early edition of the Dallas Morning News...

Later a large plain, grey square appeared in a later edition, in the exact same place where the original route was printed in the early edition?......

It has been said that the Change was made so that the motorcade could get onto the Stemmons Freeway. .that there was a curb, a divider....that the motorcade would have had to have driven over....now keep in mind, I guess, that apparently Dignitaries do not like bumps...now this was......Not a high divider by any means...and a car could have driven over it.....I have read...but one, none the less....

But also there was a dreaded " No Turn Sign" and we cannot have such allowances made for, the President of the U.S nor the V.P let alone the Governor nor the rest of the dignitaries, breaking the law now, could we..?..sheesh...

See the enormous mountain of a bump..... and the dreaded dangerous no turn sign in photo below.....

BUT........The motorcade could also have just as easily gone straight down the Main Street, to the Trade Mart by way of Industrial Blvd. ..ta da......

The change was against the SS standards in creating such a slow down as to present access to the President with all of the dangerous aspects that went along with such...see Palamara's Link .....

There is also within the W/C Hearings & Exhibits the DMN map taken from that paper, showing the blank space....though I do not have the link right now....a search would turn it up...

There are the map diagrams also from the DMN of Nov.22.63 in Fetzer's, as well as Garrison & Walt Brown's books...also information in Livingstone's..

*****************************

TESTIMONY OF WINSTON G. LAWSON, ACCOMPANIED BY FRED B. SMITH, DEPUTY GENERAL COUNSEL, TREASURY DEPARTMENT

Mr. LAWSON. I imagine it was a little faster at this time,

sir, because the downtown section where it was quite heavily populated

with people watching the motorcade, we had been out of that for a while before we got to the Houston Street turn. So we were probably

back up to perhaps 12 or 15 miles an hour by then.

Mr. McCLOY. But you would have had to slow up a bit coming

around the curve.

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Lawson, can you tell us why you didn't plan the

motorcade so that it went straight down Main Street to turn right on

to the entrance to the freeway instead of taking this dogleg on

Houston and Elm?

Mr. DULLES. Jerry, will you take over.

Page 333

Representative FORD. Will you proceed please, Mr. Stern?

Mr. STERN. Yes.

Mr. LAWSON. You mean why we didn't come straight down Main

Street to the Stemmons Freeway?

Mr. STERN. Right.

Mr. LAWSON. Because it is my understanding there isn't any

entrance to the freeway on Main Street...

Mr. STERN. But you don't yourself recall now or do you?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, I was told that there wasn't any entrance

that way, and I myself once when I went to the Trade Mart, not knowing

that there was any entrance to it, went down Main Street, You must

enter the freeway going in the direction that We wanted to go from the

Elm Street extension.

Mr. STERN. When you went down Main Street you found that you could not get on to the entrance to the Stemmons Freeway?

Mr. LAWSON. Going the direction on the freeway towards the

Trade Mart, that is correct.

Mr. STERN. Which is the direction the motorcade was to go?

Mr. LAWSON. Was to go; yes, sir.

http://jfkassassinat...mony/lawson.htm

*******************************

From Vince Palamara.....

THE SPECIAL AGENT OF THE WHITE HOUSE DETAIL, GERALD A. BEHN, TOLD ME ON 9/27/92

THAT THE ROUTE WAS CHANGED IN DALLAS---

THE HSCA EVEN ASKED HIM WHY (NOT IF) THE

ROUTE WAS INDEED CHANGED IN *EXECUTIVE SESSION* (THESE RECORDS ARE STILL NOT

RELEASED)!

BEHN, TO ME ON 9/27/92, RE: THE HSCA: "ISN'T THAT THE ONE THAT STOKES

WAS ON?

WELL, THEY WANTED TO KNOW WHY THE ROUTE WAS CHANGED---I KNOW IT WAS

CHANGED, BUT WHY---I'VE FORGOTTEN COMPLETELY; I DON'T KNOW"

**********************

See Fact #6:

In a related matter.....

http://web.archive.o...tsheet_vmp.html

***************************************

Advance man Marty Underwood ,worked on the planning of JFK's Texas tour

- specifically, his proposed stops at Houston and Austin....

In an exclusive interview conducted on 10/9/92, the author obtained the following new information [similar in content to what Underwood told "Evening Magazine" on 11/22/88, his only TV appearance]:

- Underwood became "an honorary Secret Service agent" and served under Presidents Kennedy and Johnson. While with LBJ, he became the "aide in charge of the Secret Service." The advance man confirmed to this author that JFK did not restrict agents from riding on the Presidential limousine. Underwood told Harrison Livingstone: "There were so many things that fell through in Dallas. Any advance man who had any sense at all would never have taken him down that route." When Livingstone commented that the route was changed, Underwood added: "Yeah, I know. You don't take a guy down a route like that."("High Treason 2", by Harry Livingstone, page 442)

DNC advance man Underwood and uniformed agent Norris were two men who strongly criticized the route in interviewsLink to the HSCA Appendix to Hearings..Volume X1

(http://web.archive.o...sp_denials.html

If interested Link to the HSCA Appendix to Hearings ...Volume X1

on the motorcade route...

http://history-matte...Vol11_0257a.htm

*************************

"" Furthermore, the #1 agent in the president's detail Jerry Behn, told me ( Vince Palamara) that the Dallas route was changed from some other (unknown) choice, as the House Select Committee on Assassinations asked him in Executive Session in still unpublished testimony in the late 1970s.

Furthermore, agents Kinney and Winston G. Lawson confirmed for this author that there were indeed alternate routes (two, according to Kinney), and the author discovered much confusion in the newspapers and perhaps unwitting obfuscation in the strangely conflicting accounts of the route Kennedy was to take in Dallas.""

*********************

This below, I found within an e-mail...and seems to be a couple of years old, I believe it to be from Vince Palamara.if not ??

Most of this analysis of the motorcade route is taken from WC and/or HSCA testimony.

WHD Jerry Behn revealed some details that the route had been changed for Dallas (as the HSCA had inquired of him in Executive Session)-Behn should know: besides being the SAIC, Win Lawson told the HSCA that the selection of the motorcade route involved Behn (HSCA11516).

Both Sam Kinney and Winston Lawson had mentioned ALTERNATE routes, including Main to Industrial (also:4H326).

Advance man Jack Puterbaugh had also told the HSCA investigators about driving over alternate routes with Sorrels, as a new document dated 4/14/78 reveals.

I strongly believe that the route was changed after advance agent David Grant's arrival on 11/18/63 from the Florida trip, where he worked with Boring on the planning of this trip before doing the same in

Texas (18H789;17H601).

Lawson told the WC that the route could be changed on 11/19/63 if need be (4H341).

Although Chief Rowley knew releasing motorcade routes to the press was against Secret Service rules, he stated that this breach of regulations in Dallas was not done by the Secret Service; even Lawson had told the WC that he didn't know who had announced the route in the papers (4H340).

However, Bill Moyers, who, along with his assistant, Betty Harris, was working with the Secret Service, told the HSCA that the authority to print the motorcade route in Dallas was done with the cooperation of an unnamed agent he characterized as "in charge of the Dallas trip"-if true, this was Floyd Boring.

Houston and Austin advance man Marty Underwood and Uniformed Officer John Norris both harshly criticized the choice of route to me, as this was a route which violated Secret Service regulations by involving a 120 degree turn in a warehouse district (the TSBD), which would slow the limousine to a dangerous speed.

Evidently, some real subterfuge was involved in the release of the actual route to be used on 11/22/63, for not only did many newspapers contradict each other with the details of the exact outline of the route, but, as revealed in a WC Document (Griffin to Rankin re: Dallas Police) recently found amongst some HSCA files, it was written that "from an administrative standpoint, (DPD's Charles) Batchelor believed that the failure of the Secret Service to inform the police adequately in advance of the exact route to organizing their men and taking the necessary security precautions".

In addition, Governor Connolly stated that he also was never informed about the exact route to be taken on 11/22/63 (New York Herald Tribune, 11/29/63)!

If both Greer and Kellerman can be believed when they told the WC that they had no knowledge of the route either (2H111,121), it appears then that the lead car they were following-containing Chief Curry, Sheriff Decker, and, most importantly, Forrest Sorrels and Winston Lawson-dictated the actual route to be used on 11/22/63.

Incredibly, even the route was blamed on JFK- it was supposedly "entirely appropriate in view of the known desires of the President" (WR)!;

In addition, although the WC claimed that the route was "selected by Agent Lawson" (WR195(Assoc. Press)),

the HSCA learned from Lawson that he could NOT identify the person who selected the hazardous, 120-degree Elm Street turn (HSCA11522).

Incredibly, the WC had taken testimony from Agent Sorrels who claimed that HE was the actual person who selected the dog-leg turn!

I believe the HSCA was correct when they stated that Lawson "did not have control over the final determination of the route" (HSCA11521)-

The arrival of advance agent David Grant from the Florida trip was a profound influence at work here;

Even though the use of 18 motorcycles for JFK's motorcade in Dallas had been approved on 11/20/63, there were no Secret Service agents present at this security meeting.

At the 11/21/63 meeting, 3 agents were in attendance, including agent David Grant, who made the claim that JFK did not "desire" that many motorcycles, or even ANY motorcycles on each side of him, but only to the rear (HSCA11527,529).

Strangely, the original plan was used in all of the prior Texas stops-San Antonio, Houston, and even Fort Worth on the very morning of 11/22/63 (NBC video)!

According to some in the DPD, they had received this "change of plans" at Love Field (HSCA11528).

The HSCA appropriately termed this appalling situation "uniquely insecure";

David Grant also cancelled the DPD squad car over the protests of Chief Curry (HSCA11529-530);

Not only were the Secret Service responsible for the motorcade's vehicle order, the placement of several vehicles-including the Presidential limousine- were changed from their original order (25H786; 17H618; 4H322;

"Murder From Within", pp.37-39);

Although the Secret Service was responsible for the overpasses being totally free of any spectators, this was not adhered to in Dealey Plaza (4H351);

The media, White House Photographer Cecil Stoughton, Pres. aide Godfrey McHugh, and Dr. Burkley were placed further back in the motorcade from where they normally were positioned: near the front, near JFK (CFTR radio 1976; Manchester, p.169; Bishop, pp. 109-110, 133-134).

McHugh said that this was "unusual"; even Greer admitted that many times an aide rode in the front seat of the limo with the driver and the supervisor (2H129).

Press photographer Tom Dillard told C-SPAN on 11/22/93 that the press photographers' flatbed truck that traditionally rode in front of the Presidential limousine was "cancelled at the last minute", adding that "we were put in Chevrolet convertibles six cars back" that "put us totally out of the picture".

Even the press bus, which usually followed the Secret Service follow-up car, was placed further back in the motorcade.

Stoughton rode in the follow-up car taking pictures 11/18-11/21/63 but was “replaced” by Dave Powers for the Dallas trip. Stoughton admitted to me that many times he rode here AND on the rear of the limo taking film. In fact, on page 160 of his book, he stated that Jackie Kennedy wanted him to ride in the follow-up car from July 1963 onward!;

The ambulance that would have been on standby in case of injury to JFK was gone from the scene a few minutes before the shooting, carrying an alleged Dealey Plaza "seizure victim" (WFAA TV, interview with Aubrey Rike and Dennis McGuire, 11/22/63; Curry, pp. 27-28);

JFK/LBJ: same city, same motorcade, in slow-moving open vehicles in close proximity to each other-this was unique (interview with Bolden, 9/16/93; 4H336).

This is the exact reason why the president and the VP to this day fly on different planes-you are never to have them travel so close together in such a compromising position!;

Lawson told both the WC and the HSCA that he could not recall giving instructions to watch building windows, "although it was his usual practice to do so". DPD Captain Perdue Lawrence confirmed that NO instructions were given (WR197(Assoc. Press version); HSCA11526).

Although Treasury Secretary C. Douglas Dillon tried to claim after-the-fact that it was "not the practice of the Secret Service to make surveys or checks of buildings along the route of a Presidential motorcade" (CD3),

Chief Inspector Michael W. Torina told author William Manchester in 1961 that wherever a Presidential motorcade must slow down for a turn, the entire intersection must be checked in advance (Manchester, p.32).

*****************************

Winston Lawson ALSO testifieD to the Warren Commission that he had been an agent in the Army CounterIntelligence Corps. (Military Intelligence):.link above....

Mr. STERN: Briefly, what was your employment experience from 1949 to 1959.

Mr. LAWSON: From the time of my graduation after a couple of months working for a firm that my father worked for, I became a wholesale carpet salesman until December 1951, and then I joined the Carnation Co., manufacturers of milk products nationally, and was a representative in various capacities for them in New York State. In 1953, March, I went in the Army and I had been a reservist and was called up as a CIC agent. I had 16 weeks of basic infantry, basic training, went to the CIC Counterintelligence School in Holabird, Md.--Fort Holabird, Md.--outside of Baltimore, and then was assigned eventually to the Lexington field office where I did general counterintelligence work for the Army, background investigations, and some interviews of the prisoners, POW's from the Korean war.

Mr. McCLOY: When you say CIC agent you mean----

Mr. LAWSON: Counterintelligence agent; yes, sir, in the Army. 4 H 318

Next, Lawson tells the Commission that when the President's limo slows down enough, the agents run alongside the car.

Mr. McCLOY: It was part of your routine duties when you were going through a street in any city, to look at the windows as well as the crowds?

Mr. LAWSON: Yes, sir; and if the President's car slowed to such a point or the crowd ever pressed in to such a point that people are getting too close to the President, the agents always get out and go along the car. 4 H 327

*****************************

From : Evelyn Lincoln's book, Kennedy & Johnson (1968).

She states that JFK was very reluctant to go on the trip to Texas;

“Advance reports from our own staff and from many other people gave us cause to worry about the tense climate in Texas – and most especially, in Dallas.

Dallas was removed and then put back on the planned itinerary several times. Our own advance man urged that the motorcade not take the route through the underpass and past the Book Depository, but he was overruled

So was the Secret Service part of the "Radical Right"?

[Mathias Baumann]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Andrej,

The following is my opinion.

1.  It was not ESSENTIAL for the Patsy to be working at the TSBD.     Not in the slightest.

2.  The only ESSENTIAL aspect was that the Patsy hand over his rifle.

3.   Gerry Patrick Hemming's rifle was also in the possession of the FBI on 11/22/1963.   There were likely plenty of others.

4.  LHO handed over his rifle early in the morning.

5.  At that point, all that was needed was to shoot LHO in the street.  Evidently, that was what JD Tippit was about to do when he himself was killed.

6.  LHO was already sufficiently sheep-dipped in NOLA to make an open and shut case.

7.  But the JFK plotters really wanted to give the impression of MULTIPLE Communists in the plot.   None of this LN baloney.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul,

you say the patsy "handed over" his rifle. It's been shown that the paper bag that Oswald brought to work was too small to carry the Mannlicher Carcano rifle. So when and where exactly did Oswald "hand over his rifle"? And what was he hiding in the paper bag? Curtain rods?