Martin Hay Reviews Bugliosi Jr.

[Gary Murr]

On ‎02‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 1:28 PM, James DiEugenio said:

The other alternative is its a missed shot.  The problem here is that there was no copper found on the curb by the FBI.  If you have ever seen the copper coated CE 399 bullets, you will understand how that is impossible to fathom.  And the excuses that Posner and Bugliosi have offered in that regard are simply fruity.  The former says that the twigs in the tree completely stripped the coating from the bullet, the latter says that the bullet rotated off the street and while rotating the concrete unsheathed the copper coating uniformly.  

Hey Jim:

I haven't been able to test the Bugliosi fruit-cake explanation offered for the lack of copper found on the Tague curb mark, but given what I do know about 6.5mm Carcano ammunition manufactured by the Western Cartridge Company, and e-mail exchanges on this subject matter with former employees, this theoretical possibility is nil. On the other hand, a fellow researcher and myself did test the Posner village idiot proposition and found it wanting. I [hopefully] am attaching a link to images of a 6.5mm WCC bullet that was fired through two oak tree "twigs" from a distance of 50 yards, both of which were roughly 2.5" in  diameter. As you can see the copper jacket stayed intact, as it most certainly should have. The only after-affect we noted was a very slight "toothpaste" protrusion of lead from the base of this expended cartridge.

http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/GaryWCC/media/WCC branch test.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

FWIW

Gary Murr 

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks Gary.  God that is great that you actually did this.  

And they call us "theorists".  

[Cliff Varnell]

On 2/2/2018 at 12:14 PM, Paul Brancato said:

Cliff - honestly I don't think it's hostility on Jim's part to the simple case for conspiracy. I think it's to your unerring tendency to reduce everything to the back wound location. Would you consider varying your approach a bit? 

Paul, I have nothing but the greatest respect for you  -- we both played key roles in the weaponization of collector's trading cards in the early 90's, you even more than myself.

However...The T3 back wound is the evidence against which all other evidence is judged.  The  wound location the  Fox 5 "back of the head" autopsy photo requires a movement of JFK's clothing contrary to the nature of reality.

The Fox 5 photo thus stands a proven fraud.

Only a throat entrance wound could have caused the hairline fracture of the right T1 transverse process given the location of the holes in his clothes.

The "bullet/bone fragment exit" theory of the throat wound thus stands debunked.

The back wound was shallow and no bones were struck, any association with a 6.5mm FMJ thus stands debunked.

The autopsy report on the back wound thus stands debunked.

This adds up to a cover-up within the Secret Service and the military.

There were no rounds found during the autopsy.

Such are the parameters of any legitimate investigation into the murder of JFK.

[Pat Speer]

On 2/3/2018 at 5:47 PM, James DiEugenio said:

So Pat, what do you think this means then if these two guys dumped the SBT?

But yet still side with the WC verdict.

I think some of those believing "Oswald did it because well he must've, right, we don't have any solid evidence towards any other shooter in Dealey Plaza that we can name anyhow" are open-minded enough to recognize that the SBT is wacky.

And are desperately flailing to come up with some way it could be Oswald without the SBT...

I see them as being on the road to a sudden realization... "Oh my God, maybe it wasn't Oswald, after all!"

But for one thing...  These SBT-doubters have spent years if not their whole working life working with law enforcement, and the fabrication of evidence and/or false testimony of the DPD and/or FBI is not something they are able to consider.

 

Edited February 5, 2018 by Pat Speer

[Paul Brancato]

2 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Paul, I have nothing but the greatest respect for you  -- we both played key roles in the weaponization of collector's trading cards in the early 90's, you even more than myself.

However...The T3 back wound is the evidence against which all other evidence is judged.  The  wound location the  Fox 5 "back of the head" autopsy photo requires a movement of JFK's clothing contrary to the nature of reality.

The Fox 5 photo thus stands a proven fraud.

Only a throat entrance wound could have caused the hairline fracture of the right T1 transverse process given the location of the holes in his clothes.

The "bullet/bone fragment exit" theory of the throat wound thus stands debunked.

The back wound was shallow and no bones were struck, any association with a 6.5mm FMJ thus stands debunked.

The autopsy report on the back wound thus stands debunked.

This adds up to a cover-up within the Secret Service and the military.

There were no rounds found during the autopsy.

Such are the parameters of any legitimate investigation into the murder of JFK.

Cliff - the respect is mutual. I’m far more interested in who done it. I never had doubts about the throat wound being entrance. I never had any doubts about conspiracy and don’t engage in arguing that case. I’m not well versed in the history of the back wound controversy, and I admit I don’t care. So I don’t doubt your point. If Jim sees it differently it doesn’t mean he differs on the important point that JFK was done in by powerful and perhaps still hidden individuals. 

[Robert Harper]

On 2/4/2018 at 5:01 AM, Joe Bauer said:

one would have expected 60 Minutes or many other so-called highest bar

I mentioned to a friend that this documentary series on Netflix - called Dirty Money - was so different than the approved documentaries we grew up on ,like 60 Minutes, which was 20 minutes-of-halfway-decent  docs. Each of  these first 6 episodes, put to shame most of the main stream media in the non-fiction department. Imagine if Lane, Joetsen, Buchanan, Meagher and Salandria were able to speak to large numbers within a year of a story.

[James DiEugenio]

I wouldn't even give Sixty Minutes that much credit.

[Robert Harper]

9 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

And are desperately flailing to come up with some way it could be Oswald without the SBT...

Reading your discussion  reminded me of my favorite amazon review for JFK and the Unspeakable, from 2008(.His only error is referring to the author as a "Jesuit priest")

I think it best reflects my own evolution.:

 

We are all jurors in an ongoing trial to find the truth of John Kennedy's murder. Most of us have fallen asleep; some left the chamber, and others don't even care anymore. But a few, a very small few, have been paying attention for the last 45 years as arguments for the prosecution of Lee Harvey Oswald, headed up by government lawyers and their lackeys have been constantly countered by a volunteer and unpaid defense team for the truth made up of laymen, clergymen, historians, teachers, researchers, republicans, democrats, non-affiliates of all ages shapes and sizes. It has been a bewildering experience to have been patted on the head and told to go to sleep by the Warren Commission only to be rudely awakened by a garrulous DA from Louisiana, followed then by a government report which said, well, there might have been two, but go on back to sleep. Dazed and confused we began to leave the room but were called back in by Oliver Stone who told us to take a look at his evidence of Oswald's innocence. We were intrigued, but an impish Gerald Posner convinced Dick Cavett and other icons of American mainstream media that Stone's myth was just that and the case was indeed closed: Oswald did it. But Stone had garnered enough interest to cause Congress to form the ARRB- under George Bush Sr, no less. It took Bill Clinton half his presidency to get the thing going, but we watched with bated breath as the Assassinations Records Review Board began pulling from the FBI, CIA, and the rest of the alphabet bits and pieces of information that left gaping holes in the official story. Most of us didn't believe it anyway, but a few, a small few did notice that there seemed to have been two brains pulled from John Kennedy's head during the so-called autopsy. In fact so many moles began popping up it was difficult for the gatekeepers to bop them in the head fast enough. Distracted as we were by 911 and the war on terror, and the revelation that our government has the capacity to pull off an Operation Northwoods, as the ARRB found out, we continued to keep half an eyeball on the story, those of us who were paying attention. But then just as we were ready to reach a verdict of no true bill, Peter Jennings pops in to save the day for the prosecution. Disregarding all prior logic, evidence and common sense he lulled us back to comfortable numbness as he proved through computer generation, laser beams and some small degree of witch-craft that yes, indeed that was some magic bullet. Nevertheless, while almost dozing off again we heard rumblings of another defense witness about to enter the courtroom. He was David Talbot, an almost Main stream media type who was arguing that John and Robert Kennedy were possibly victims of powerful forces in our own government who wanted and needed them gone. But before he could present his full case a boisterous and bellicose advocate of Governmental Righteousness threw on to the floor, almost breaking it, an objection, claiming his stake in the case with a tome of such immense size and weight that no one, at first, dared to read it or question its obvious Buglisosian authority. When it was finally opened, the muse of Arlen Spector saundered forth speaking in only a language that he could understand. Talk shows raved about Vince's masterpiece; gatekeepers swooned, and the prosecution let out a huge and foul-smelling sigh of relief as they said, There! That ought to put this damn thing to rest finally! Everyone began to pack up and leave, most never having read briefs by Scott, Gerald McKnight, Larry Hancock, etc., defense advocates who had built their arguments on the works of Vince Salandria, Marrs, Howard Roffman, Sheim, Weisberg, etc., and the thousands of pages of released and obscure documents. But just as the courtroom almost emptied, looking like a Senate Chamber with a wobbling old man named Byrd trying to make a point, in comes a Jesuit priest. I'm no Catholic, I thought, as I was getting up to leave with the two or three other jurors who had sat through the whole case so far, trying to pay attention, but this guy seems to know his stuff. He's talking about everything we have already heard but putting it all into context. His summation is actually making sense- reason, logic, truth, honesty, footnotes, primary source interviews, follow-up questions, giving the benefit of the doubt to all sides. I sat back down. As James Douglass presented his case, scales fell from my eyes. Oswald was innocent. I look around. Is anybody there?
David Neal

Kitty Hawk, NC

Edited February 5, 2018 by Robert Harper
added parenthetical phrase

[Cliff Varnell]

On 2/2/2018 at 2:01 PM, James DiEugenio said:

And that is that and we should all go home.

We should all quit trying to "prove conspiracy" since that ship sailed back in the summer of 1966.

Salandria and Fonzi did the heavy lifting proving the fact of conspiracy, thank you very much.

On 2/2/2018 at 2:01 PM, James DiEugenio said:

I like people who do not have agendas and are open to other people's good work like Martin's.

It's the agenda of many in the JFKA Master Class to blow pixie dust over the T3 back wound and throat entrance wound in order to hype the relevance of their own highly redundant work.