The KGB and the JFK case

[Pamela Brown]

Jimmie D made the following post. Apologies, I am not finding the original (this is copied from a reply by TG).  

(I'm not able to get a cursor outside of the quote box, so am making my reply at the top.)  

Thank you for your clear analysis.  I do think you make a number of valid points.  I just don't see things in quite the same way.

I don't think Angleton knew what to do with Nosenko.  I wish I considered JJA better prepared.  Rather than take a step back and think outside-of-the-box, it seems to me JJA just jumped in with his either/or mentality and made a lot of mistakes.  

It is my thinking that Nosenko may have been something unusual, in that he may have been given/fed information that led him to believe he could properly analyze LHO, but that, in fact, was not the case.  I think there were those who, in a sense, programmed Nosenko to be a mystery, even though he thought he was a valid defector.  

Pamela:

Some background of what TG just wrote and also a correction.

Angleton was quite ready for Nosenko;  he was getting ready for him months in advance.  In fact, he had already created a large file on the man before Bagley brought him over.

See, Angleton bushwacked both Nosenko and Bagley.  Bagley originally believed Nosenko.  Angleton knew that.  So when Bagley came back  from Europe, Angleton sat him down in a room, stacked his file in front of him and made his case that Nosenko was a false defector.  And it worked.  Bagley bought into it and reversed field.

Why is this important?  Because this is what caused the entire imprisonment of Nosenko at the hands of Angleton, aided by Helms. Virtually every person who kept Nosenko imprisoned, and then psychologically tortured him, had been handpicked by Angleton's team.  It went on for three years, because Dirty Dick (my name for Helms) approved it.

Now, if Angleton already had his mind made up, and his whole intent was to be judge, jury and executioner, then what was the whole purpose of the three year ordeal?  Well, it was essentially a POW camp for Nosenko.  

Finally, after this rather despicable trial by torture, a vote was taken and Helms allowed a neutral party to examine the process.  Which is how we got the Hart Report, which was the initial step in  setting the man free.  Now this was a key point in Angleton's career, since most commentators look at it at the beginning of the end for him.  And Anlgeton's backers have always stated that the Hart Report only analyzed the torture aspect not Nosenko's story.  This is not true. Hart mentioned some of the problems with Nosenko's statements and he said that it was common with defectors to try to oversell themselves so they can get a better deal.  Bill Colby had already had a look at what Angleton had done in his unfettered state as provided to him by Helms and Dulles. Colby did not buy Angleton's methods or his ideas about the Cold War, which to him had essentially paralyzed the CIA.  Along with ruining several lives--which the CIA later on had to pay money to some of these innocent people Angleton had persecuted.

Even Mike Holzman, who is rather kind to Angleton his his biography, has to admit that Nosenko turned out to be one of the most valuable defectors the CIA had, much better than Golitsyn., 

As per Angleton vs Nosenko on LHO, I mean look, anyone who studies Oswald from his time in the marines, and even before, that is with Ferrie in the CAP, understands he was being groomed as a false defector.  (See Destiny Betrayed, second edition, Chapter 7, "On Instructions from his Government.")  The Soviets understood this instantly. Mainly because the CIA had been doing it with increasing frequency through the years, especially 1957-59. Plus Oswald was not a really well rehearsed fake defector.

 This is why they sent him to Minsk and then put a ring of intel around him. Is that how you recruit someone? I doubt it.

Its stuff like this that made Colby promise himself  that if he was ever in a position to terminate Angleton, he would do so.  And, thank God for us all, he did.  But it was a bit late for JFK. And Oswald.

 

Edited May 25, 2018 by Pamela Brown

[David Josephs]

I don't understand how a conversation can be had about Nosenko without mention of one of the key players in the "reversal"

Leonard McCoy was relentless in his exoneration of Nosenko...

I fail to see how Nosenko can be discussed without consideration for what McCoy did

 

December 1965

Introduction: After examining the evidence of Nosenko's mala fides in thee notebook, which I assume to be the best evidence,

although not all of it, I am convinced that Nosenko is a bona fide defector. I believe the case against him has arisen and persisted

because the facts have beei misconstrued, ignored, or interpreted without sufficient consideration of his psychological failings.

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2018 by David Josephs

[Pamela Brown]

For Thomas Graves: 

I have re-read Spy Wars.  I have not at this point changed my position.  I consider it an apology for the treatment of Nosenko.  

At the same time, I will add definition to my position to say that I think KGB messed with Nosenko's mind and memories before he 'defected' to the US.  I think he was intended to baffle CIA.  He may have thought he was telling the truth, but he made enough mistakes to raise a lot of red flags.  

What I am going to be focusing on now is why there was this sudden and apparently unexpected sweeping change in CIA's position that, in effect, whitewashed Nosenko''s background as well as the CIA treatment.  

And I still maintain that JJA ought to have been able to see that Nosenko was something different and take a cautious approach.  So I hold him responsible for some of the bad treatment Nosenko got. 

[B. A. Copeland]

First thing's first: TG, is it your contention that the KGB were the masterminds, the prime movers and/or agents of the execution of JFK on 11/22/1963? I dare not wish to state a position of yours without knowing straight from the source. If I need to go read your position somewhere I will also (and gladly) do that as well.

Edited June 8, 2018 by B. A. Copeland

[Paul Brancato]

3 hours ago, B. A. Copeland said:

First thing's first: TG, is it your contention that the KGB were the masterminds, the prime movers and/or agents of the execution of JFK on 11/22/1963? I dare not wish to state a position of yours without knowing straight from the source. If I need to go read your position somewhere I will also (and gladly) do that as well.

Tommy Graves is no longer posting, but I am sure he is reading and chomping at the bit. I’m fairly sure that his current theory is that the Soviets were the prime movers. It wasn’t always his belief, but Bagley convinced him. I’d like to leave that aside for the moment, and it’s really not fair that I represent him anyway.

i think we spend too much time on Nosenko. There was a deep disagreement in the CIA on his bonafides. If he was false, it’s completely understandable why he was sent. But as Jim says he provided lots of good info in either case. Maybe as Pamela says he was ‘something different.

i think we should look at Golitsyn, widely considered to be genuine, and completely accepted as such by Angleton. Even Graves admitted to me that Golitsyn went berserk later on and started seeing Communist agents everywhere. The difference in the treatment he got vs Nosenko surely has to do with the fact that Golitsyn fed Angleton’s Paranoid world view, and Nosenko did not. The CIA mole who Golitsyn called Sasha was never found, and Angleton ruined many careers trying to figure out who he was. Golitsyn drove a wedge between the US and France that was very destructive. I think we need to look closely at that. 

I have a theory. I’m not sure it’s original, but I haven’t read it anywhere else. I’ve been looking as closely as I am able at Phillippe Thyraud De Vosjoli, and I smell a rat. He was head of French Intelligence (SDECE) in the US, Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean from 1951-63, and had a working relationship with Angleton during those years. Then he defected to the US in November of 1963. The official story is that Golitsyn and Angleton convinced him that France’s Intelligence services were heavily infiltrated by the KGB starting in the 1950’s. JFK heard about these revelations and sent a letter to DeGaulle expressing his concerns. As a result of that and efforts by Angleton and De Vosjoli the French debriefed Golitsyn for a long time, checking and double-checking  everything. Here the story gets confusing, because apparently he convinced some but not all of his questioners of his truthfulness. The most impressive thing he did was demonstrate a very deep understanding of the inner workings of the SDECE. 

When I read this I couldn’t help but wonder how Golitsyn would know so much detail about French Intelligence. It’s one thing to name names of KGB moles, and quite another to do what he is purported to have done. And then it struck me - maybe Vosjoli was feeding him this inside info. Wouldn’t this be right out of Angleton’s playbook? I’m going to leave it here in hopes someone think this is an intriguing possibility. I will share a lot more about De Vosjoli later.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Paul Brancato

[David Josephs]

8 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

i think we should look at Golitsyn

 

Couple of his books...   I do truly hope we understand that in grand scheme the "defectors" from Russia were overseen by moles already in place... that the entire focus of the USSR within intelligence was spreading disinformation sprinkled with enough truth to be accepted...

The current Russian group is working with over 100 years of trial and error with disinformation campaigns...  (IOW you continue to jab  jab  jab  until the opening appears for a knockout punch... IMHO, the 2016 election was that most recent punch...)

http://www.doomedsoldiers.com/pdfs/new_lies_for_old_golitsyn.pdf

https://ia800305.us.archive.org/27/items/AnatoliyGolitsyn/Golitsyn-ThePerestroikaDeception-TheWorldsSlideTowardsTheSecondOctoberRevolution1995.pdf

edit - added:

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB493/docs/intell_ebb_025.PDF
James J. Angleton, Anatoliy Golitsyn, and the "Monster Plot": Their Impact on CIA Personnel and Operations

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2018 by David Josephs

[Paz Marverde]

8 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Tommy Graves is no longer posting

I do thank you God every day for this

[Paul Brancato]

13 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

 

Couple of his books...   I do truly hope we understand that in grand scheme the "defectors" from Russia were overseen by moles already in place... that the entire focus of the USSR within intelligence was spreading disinformation sprinkled with enough truth to be accepted...

The current Russian group is working with over 100 years of trial and error with disinformation campaigns...  (IOW you continue to jab  jab  jab  until the opening appears for a knockout punch... IMHO, the 2016 election was that most recent punch...)

http://www.doomedsoldiers.com/pdfs/new_lies_for_old_golitsyn.pdf

https://ia800305.us.archive.org/27/items/AnatoliyGolitsyn/Golitsyn-ThePerestroikaDeception-TheWorldsSlideTowardsTheSecondOctoberRevolution1995.pdf

edit - added:

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB493/docs/intell_ebb_025.PDF
James J. Angleton, Anatoliy Golitsyn, and the "Monster Plot": Their Impact on CIA Personnel and Operations

 

 

 

I’m going to read your interesting links. Meanwhile what do you think of De Vosjoli? 

[Paz Marverde]

5 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Vosjoli

What is very interesting on him, is his links with Aginter, Paul

[Paul Brancato]

2 minutes ago, Paz Marverde said:

What is very interesting on him, is his links with Aginter, Paul

I will try to google that but I am unfamiliar with it at this point, so any leads you have would be appreciated.

[Paz Marverde]

1 minute ago, Paul Brancato said:

I will try to google that but I am unfamiliar with it at this point, so any leads you have would be appreciated.

They are in Italian. That very same Italian creating barriers and thoughts 

[David Josephs]

15 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

I’m going to read your interesting links. Meanwhile what do you think of De Vosjoli? 

Need to do some reading up on the man....

From "Brandy's" book...

https://books.google.com/books?id=QLdqgDsVio4C&pg=PA214&lpg=PA214&dq=Philippe+Thyraud+De+Vosjoli+pdf&source=bl&ots=_PEq34s969&sig=5CWkj7HLrALWRvgtqiVq4XWaG3w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjL2sb-scTbAhVKr1QKHVrOBLwQ6AEIcjAO#v=onepage&q=Philippe Thyraud De Vosjoli pdf&f=false

 

[Paul Brancato]

Brandy Portrait of an Intelligence Officer available on Smashwords for $3. Really worth a read - co-written autobiography. 20 years working for ACSI, member of Crichton’s 488th from 1959, close to De Vosjoli, who left DC on November 22, 1963 and drove to Brandy’s Acapulco estate. Officially Vosjoli was worried that SDECE agents had targeted him for assassination. Close to Angleton. There’s much more. What I am looking at now is the intersection of Golitsyn and De Vosjoli. It turned out in the long run that there were Soviet sympathizers in DeGaulles government and secret services. I feel like duh. Big difference between KGB agents and sympathizers. Paranoid Angleton, fed by Golitsyn, believed everyone was suspected KGB, but never found the mole that Golitsyn named Sasha, in the CIA. De Vosjoli fits right in. 

[David Josephs]

Paul, do you think it possible that Angleton may have been Sasha?

Another forum friend from a number of years back told me of the time he was involved in the 1984 Secret Congressional hearing about the massive infiltration of the KGB into the US government and intelligence services...  so embarrassing and detrimental that the info was never released.  but I'd have to take him at his word....

Have you seen this?

 

Edited September 7, 2018 by David Josephs

[Paz Marverde]

1 minute ago, David Josephs said:

Paul, do you think it possible that Angleton may have been Sasha?

Tu quoque, David? Please ...