Who changed the motorcade route?

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Rich Pope said:

Could one person, Lee Harvey Oswald, pull off by himself---with no help from anyone else---what he is accused of doing on November 22, 1963? To me, the answer is "no".

Why not?

Oswald's rifle was definitely the murder weapon.

Oswald's prints are on the rifle.

Oswald's prints are on various objects inside the Sniper's Nest (where we know President Kennedy's assassin was located).

Oswald definitely lied to Wes Frazier (and the police) about "the package" and its contents. (So we know the package contained something LHO wanted to hide.)

Oswald had easy access to the sixth floor on 11/22.

Oswald had rifle training in the Marine Corps (which certainly made him a better rifleman than your average guy on the street).

It all adds up to ----- Oswald. And nobody else.

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-1.html

Edited June 8, 2018 by David Von Pein

[Michael Clark]

4 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Why not?

Oswald's rifle was definitely the murder weapon.

Oswald's prints are on the rifle.

Oswald definitely lied to Wes Frazier (and the police) about "the package" and its contents. (So we know the package contained something LHO wanted to hide.)

Oswald definitely had easy access to the sixth floor on 11/22.

Oswald had rifle training in the Marine Corps (which certainly made him a better rifleman than your average guy on the street).

It all adds up to ----- Oswald. And nobody else.

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-1.html

See, look who wants you to waste your time, going through all of this over and one over and over again. 

[David Von Pein]

7 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

See, look who wants you to waste your time, going through all of this over and over and over again. 

Yep. The merry-go-round with the ABO CTers never ends, does it? They'll continue to ignore all the signs of LHO's guilt till the cows come a-knockin'.

Edited June 8, 2018 by David Von Pein

[Pamela Brown]

25 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Why not?

Oswald's rifle was definitely the murder weapon.

Oswald's prints are on the rifle.

Oswald's prints are on various objects inside the Sniper's Nest (where we know President Kennedy's assassin was located).

Oswald definitely lied to Wes Frazier (and the police) about "the package" and its contents. (So we know the package contained something LHO wanted to hide.)

Oswald had easy access to the sixth floor on 11/22.

Oswald had rifle training in the Marine Corps (which certainly made him a better rifleman than your average guy on the street).

It all adds up to ----- Oswald. And nobody else.

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-1.html

For one thing, LHO had no connection to the M/C after he left NOLA.  He went to Mexico City, and Ruth and Marina drove their belongings back to Irving.  

[David Von Pein]

2 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

LHO had no connection to the M/C after he left NOLA. He went to Mexico City, and Ruth and Marina drove their belongings back to Irving.

Carcano Rifle C2766 was Lee Harvey Oswald's gun, as of March 20, 1963.

(Tons of paperwork to prove that fact.)

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/12/oswald-ordered-rifle.html

A rifle was seen by Marina in the Paine garage in Sept. or Oct. of 1963.

That rifle was missing from its known storage location in Ruth Paine's garage on 11/22/63.

C2766 was the JFK murder weapon.

C2766 was found on the sixth floor, TSBD, on 11/22.

A newborn baby could do this math. But for some reason, it always eludes a conspiracy theorist.

Edited June 8, 2018 by David Von Pein

[Ron Bulman]

2 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

For one thing, LHO had no connection to the M/C after he left NOLA.  He went to Mexico City, and Ruth and Marina drove their belongings back to Irving.  

Ruth didn't remember unloading anything like a gun wrapped in a blanket in her testimony if I remember right.  Michael Paine showed up to help unload the car in Irving upon their return from New Orleans but he didn't remember such either. Weren't both of them questioned on this?  I don't think anybody ever asked Marina in her 1000 pages of conflicting testimony.  Odd if so.  Pretty simple and straightforward.  Marina, did you bring Lee's rifle back from New Orleans?  Do you remember unloading it after you got back an putting it in the garage?

But then again they didn't bring back those 7 little file cabinet's of "Lee's" found in the garage that disappeared at the DPD either, did they? 

Edited June 8, 2018 by Ron Bulman

[Ron Bulman]

On ‎6‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 12:57 PM, David Josephs said:

Fair enough... but "being friends with" and agreeing to cover-up the assassination of the POTUS seems quite the leap...  unless as theorized, the TSBD was running all sorts of contraband and Byrd was somehow involved.

Like blaming Dillion as Sec of Treasury (and friend of Rockefellers)  cause he oversaw the Secret Service...  Is Dillon culpable for the actions of the SS that day... or as Vince clearly shows was it the cast of characters starting with Rowley and Paterni who manipulate the evidence?

Again, thanks for bringing this into the light... definitely adds texture to the situation...

 

Hi David.  I never meant to imply Dillion, or for that matter Dulles, told anyone to do anything.  At their level things would have been discussed privately.  More a suggestion from him to say Paterni that he discuss the upcoming trip with ? of the CIA?  Who then discussed it discreetly with ? Rowley?  Who then suggested Behn take a vacation...

Too much speculation...  But somebody told Roberts to back off in Dallas.  From Love Field to Dealy Plaza.  Bottom line, DP was unsecured by SS, DPD or anybody.

[David Josephs]

12 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

For one thing, LHO had no connection to the M/C after he left NOLA.  He went to Mexico City, and Ruth and Marina drove their belongings back to Irving.  

For one thing, LHO had no connection to the M/C after he left NOLA.  He went to Mexico City, and Ruth and Marina drove their belongings back to Irving.  

Just a couple corrections Pam....  there is no connection whatsoever between the MC and LHO which can be authenticated....

The evidence shows that C2766 never left HARBORSIDE... never was shipped, and never was in Oswald's possession...

DVP can wish and quote WCR all he likes... the evidence he throws against the wall, never sticks.

===============

As for Mexico... y'all know my position there...  fits with the rest of the narrative...  The Patsy seems to have a mountain of evidence against him... in fact, EVERY SINGLE ITEM of evidence is designed to do one thing, frame Oswald....

Not sure what it is exactly, but DVP simply cannot fathom the depth of evil in the hearts of powerful men and women...

 

 

Nor does he seem to want to believe Hoover in a moment of clarity...

What part of "False story" eludes...  I wonder?

[David Josephs]

1 hour ago, Rich Pope said:

So, in the immortal words of SNL...Suck it, Trebeck. 

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Rich Pope said:

I have the exact rifle and scope Oswald supposedly used. 

Yeah, sure you do.

And it's got "C2766" stamped on it too, right?

Edited June 8, 2018 by David Von Pein

[Rick McTague]

1 minute ago, David Von Pein said:

Yeah, sure you do.

And it's got "C2766" stamped on it too, right?

Proving Rich's observation.

Of course, he meant the exact same make and model of rifle and exact same make and model of the scope.

Rich, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Rick 

[David Von Pein]

Rich Pope said:

I have the exact rifle and scope Oswald supposedly used.

David Von Pein said:

Yeah, sure you do. And it's got "C2766" stamped on it too, right?

Rick McTague said:

Of course, he meant the exact same make and model of rifle and exact same make and model of the scope.

I know that's what he MEANT. But that's not what he SAID, is it?

As for Rich calling me a "jerk" and saying that I'm only interested in "stirring the pot" just to get people "riled up" ----

Well, I think it's a good idea for an LNer (like me) to occasionally remind people of what the ACTUAL EVIDENCE is in the JFK and Tippit cases, and to spell it out in black and white. And that "actual evidence" isn't going anywhere anytime soon. OSWALD'S rifle and the pictures of OSWALD holding the Kennedy murder weapon and OSWALD'S lies and the eyewitness testimony to OSWALD murdering J.D. Tippit are always going to be there. And it's important to remind people about all of that "Oswald" stuff every now and again---so that the CTers don't get the silly idea that their preposterous "Oswald Never Shot Anybody" theories are the only theories on the table when it comes to Internet discussions pertaining to the Kennedy and Tippit murders.

Edited June 8, 2018 by David Von Pein

[David Lifton]

4 hours ago, Rich Pope said:

David, you're a jerk.  You just like stirring the pot to get everyone all riled-up.  BTW...my copy of the November 22, 1963 Dallas Morning News just arrived today and the map clearly shows NO turn onto Houston or Elm.  It was the best $100 I spent (on eBay).  I have spent a lot of time buying things the you are only able to read about in books or study online.  I have the exact rifle and scope Oswald supposedly used.  That thing is so heavy there is no way Oswald could have pretended it was a set of curtain rods and walked into the TSBD with it.  That's crap.  Plus, it took a gunsmith one month to mount the scope on that rifle because the scope interfered with the bolt action on the rifle.  Oswald wasn't a gunsmith and the FBI clearly stated the scope was not aligned properly.  

 

 

 

So, in the immortal words of SNL...Suck it, Trebeck.  

 

The Dallas Morning News "map" is (more or less) a sketch, and omits much vital detail.  To begin with, it  showa a 90 degree right turn at Houston, and then (ignoring the details) a route (or ride)  directly onto Stemmons. But in fact that's not possible.  Once that right turn is executed (onto Houston), one must then travel north on Houston, and then, at Elm, make a left (135 degree)  turn onto Elm, and then proceed down Elm and through the Triple Underpass to get to the Stemmons on-ramp.  

This map, as published, contains no such detail..

Further comment: Of course, you don't have to make a right turn at Houston;  yes, you can continue on Main; but then you have to go all the way through the Triple Underass and then on to Industrial Boulevard;  turn right there, and then proceed to the Trade Mart.

Another point which suggests that this is "just a sketch" (and not an accurate "map," per today's "Mapquest" standard, and omits much detail: You cannot take Stemmons (I35North)  "to the Trade Mart."  You have to exit at Oaklawn (from recollection) and then drive the rest of the way towards Industrial Boulevard, on a service road, (which runs parallel to Stemmons); and then, at Industrial, turn right.  

Bottom line: This "map" -- perhaps not a "rough sketch," but certainly not an accurate "map"--doesn't show any of that detail; but, as the saying goes, "the Devil is in the details," and without those details, the stage is set for all kinds of misunderstandings as to what the geometry actually was;  when the route was decided, and what--if anything--was (supposedly)  changed "at the last minute," etc.

One other matter (offered here in the spirit of a 'footnote" and subject to change at a later date): in June/July 1989, when I began my own "film the witnesses" project, I had a 1-2 hour sit down, on camera, with Captain Perdue Lawrence.  I found him to be completely credible, and genuinely frank and honest, and I engaged him in some very sharp cross-examination. At no point in that interview did he ever mention any kind of route change, or going down to Dealey Plaza on "the night before" (Thurs., 11/21) to "brief" Sgt. Bellah, or anyone else from the cycle escort.  I'm not saying that didn't happen, but I'm saying Captain Lawrence made no mention of it.  In other words, he didn't volunteer any such thing.  His concern, as i recollect, was that someone might "throw a stick" at JFK (from the Underpass), or something along that line.  Certainly no anticipation of sniper fire, or anything having to do with a gun.  

My transcript of that interview, as well as the film (on 8mm in 'hi -8' [plus copies, on 3/4"]) are in storage.  At some point, I'll retrieve that material, but I'm positive he never mentioned any such thing, because such an event would have been a five-star stand-out had he done so. Of all the people I have interviewed (on camera), Captain Lawrence stands out as one of the most credible persons I have ever encountered.  Completely honest, and without a trace of guile.  If/when I get a chance to retrieve these materials, i'll post an 'addendum' on this thread.

DSL

6/8/18 - 2:45 PM PDT; revised 5:30 PM PDT

Edited June 9, 2018 by David Lifton

[James DiEugenio]

That so-called evidence has already been throughly discredited many times over.  Like the Single Bullet Fantasy, like it being the wrong rifle, like the hole that disappeared from the back of Kennedy's skull, like Oswald at 544 Camp Street with Banister, like Oswald in Clinton-Jackson with Ferrie and Shaw, like the phony autopsy which did not dissect the back wound or the skull wound, or the probes at autopsy that would not connect the back wound with the neck wound,  or the neck wound that was smaller in diameter than the back wound, or the 1500 gram brain weight which could not represent Kennedy's brain, or Oswald traversing nearly a mile in about five minutes, like the shells not matching the bullets in the Tippit case, like Oswald's fingerprints not being on the car, like phony messages being dubbed onto the DPD tapes as Tippit etc etc etc.  You mean that evidence?

This so-called evidence has been discredited almost from the start.  Which means from 1966 to the present day. Only someone as irrational as you would believe it.

And if you recall, by 1967, it got so bad that CBS News decided it had to join the cover up to stem the tide.  So you had a giant news organization getting in bed with the government to cover up the true circumstances of the murder of JFK.  And we have that in black and white now due to the late Roger Feinman.  Its right here:

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/why-cbs-covered-up-the-jfk-assassination

Bill Davy has gone even further. Apparently, Eddie Barker could not keep his mouth shut about what CBS was up to.  It turns out that not only was CBS playing  the useful idiot  to McCloy and letting him put more Warren Commission turds into the show, but CBS  was also in bed with Allen Dulles.  Thereby breaking their own rules of ethical behavior in reporting the news.  Recall, this was the summer of 1967, and the war in Vietnam was now featuring 450,000 American combat troops, plus Rolling Thunder, the greatest aerial bombardment campaign ever initiated.  And somehow, no one at CBS said:

"Hey, when Kennedy was murdered with that crazy magic bullet crap, there was not one American combat troop in Vietnam.  And was there not an announcement that our troops were being withdrawn the next month?"

The only thing that held up the phony, fraudulent, utterly spurious lies of the Warren Commission--and caused the deaths of 58,000 American and four million Vietnamese--  was the Mockingbird aspects of the press.  

But let us not ignore one key fact.  I did not like Chris Matthews' book on RFK.  After all he is part of the MSM.  But he did note that in early 1968, he begged RFK to run for president.  He had to end this awful war in Vietnam.

I guess Cronkite recalled doing that last TV interview with JFK and the president saying, something like, ultimately its their war.

 But Walter, it did not stay "their war" for long after that did it?

 

PS: Nice one Rich.  Dead right, no turn, no dogleg.  And it ain't no sketch. Its an illustration of the route.  It  proves there was a disagreement about the route.  And as Vince shows with four witnesses, it was not decided until about 24 hours before. 

 

Edited June 8, 2018 by James DiEugenio

[David Von Pein]

27 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

That so-called evidence has already been throughly discredited many times over.

So YOU say. But I certainly don't hold that opinion. Not even close, in fact. And NONE of the official investigative bodies held that opinion about the evidence either. (But, naturally, nothing the WC or HSCA ever said means a hill of beans to you, does it Jim?)

Of course, CTers have a very different definition of what the word "discredited" means when compared to an LNer. Take Jim DiEugenio's beliefs regarding Linnie Randle, Buell Frazier, and the "large paper bag", for instance. Jim actually thinks that Frazier and Randle just invented the bag. They just made it up (per Jim)! So that ultra-silly belief contributes to his overall belief that the "bag evidence" has been discredited.

To me, though, a true case of something (or somebody) being "discredited" would be Roger D. Craig. If that guy's tales about seeing "7.65 Mauser" stamped on the TSBD rifle haven't been "discredited", then nothing has ever been discredited in any murder case ever.

Edited June 8, 2018 by David Von Pein