Jim Hargrove Posted July 17, 2018 Author Share Posted July 17, 2018 Thanks, John. I couldn't agree more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paz Marverde Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 I can not disagree more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed LeDoux Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 (edited) What is it that they say about your first instinct,... someone did not get that message it appears. Sarah would be exiting when she encounters Lee with "Coke" in hand. This would likely take place at the front of the building rather than the rear. Most likely near the second floor lobby where front stairs are located. This would require Lee to either make his way through the office (Reid) or through the hallway with his cola. It seems quite possible to have Lee performing all the actions he was clamed to do post assassination but pre-assassination. The spin comes when Lee is arrested. I find the interview Brian attempted worthwhile from several aspects. He just needs to work on his "leading questions" style, as that is unprofessional. He stumbles into the Coke bit, and this suffocates any life left in the second floor lunchroom encounter. Bravo Brian. That by default supports Lee, his alibi, and his being PRAYER MAN. A dynamic erosion of the Dallas authority's and commission's story. Great work on straightening this out Bart. Andrej continues to sort this out beautifully too. Both are on my recommendation list for Lancer. Carry On!! Cheers, Ed Edited July 24, 2018 by Ed LeDoux missing pronoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 (edited) Thanks to Jake Sykes for the first one. I looked into the other two after that. Which way is that thumb going of the lady standing next to him called Sarah? At 18:25 Eh.....what was that Buell, she was standing where exactly? Gary Mack specifically asks him, to his right or left and he points and says to his left! 53:14 By the name of Sarah, standing just beside me. BWF uses both hands before and after, but when he mentions this specific bit of Sarah Stanton his left hand only moves aiming to HIS left. How can anyone translate this to standing west.......... At 06:02 Edited July 30, 2018 by Bart Kamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 I never wanted this thread to be about PrayerSmudge.... The image is too fuzzy to make any kind of ID with certainty. But since folks here seem to want it to keep this going, I'm going to post the following Brian Doyle sent me a few days ago, though I'm removing one minor insult: Sarah Stanton almost certainly saw Oswald by the rear 2nd floor staircase landing...Not only were Cokes sold right next to the staircase landing in the lunch room but Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald in that same lunch room shortly after Stanton... Stanton had an eating problem and it is very likely she ate before going out to watch the motorcade...So after having eaten in the 2nd floor lunch room she saw Oswald on the way out and asked if he was going to eat too...The reason Stanton asked was because of Oswald's proximity to the lunch room...It is even possible that Stanton saw Oswald on the staircase landing, went through the vestibule to talk to him out on the landing in order to invite him to view the motorcade, and then went back through the vestibule and exited via the hallway and front elevator... It is unlikely that Oswald was by the front staircase because Mrs Reid detailed going out that way on her way out to see the motorcade...If Oswald were by the front staircase on the 2nd floor Mrs Reid would have seen him there too and mentioned it...I would also imagine Stanton would have taken the elevator had she gone to the front staircase on the 2nd floor...The elevator is before you got to the staircase and separated from it, so Stanton would not be able to talk to Oswald had she taken the elevator... The Coke is clear confirmation of the lunch room encounter...It not only places Oswald in the lunch room where Carolyn Arnold saw him but it sets him up there as intending to eat... The Coke also gives validity to Mrs Reid, whom the Prayer Man people were dismissing as a xxxx who was in on the plot... Let's tally the score here: 2nd floor lunch room witnesses for Oswald - Sarah Stanton, Carolyn Arnold, Baker & Truly... Witnesses for Oswald being right in front of everyone on the portal landing: Z E R O ... Witnesses who describe in clear terms Prayer Man being Sarah Stanton: Buell Frazier... Billy Lovelady... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paz Marverde Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Brian Doyle is a manipulator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said: I never wanted this thread to be about PrayerSmudge.... The image is too fuzzy to make any kind of ID with certainty. But since folks here seem to want it to keep this going, I'm going to post the following Brian Doyle sent me a few days ago, though I'm removing one minor insult: Sarah Stanton almost certainly saw Oswald by the rear 2nd floor staircase landing...Not only were Cokes sold right next to the staircase landing in the lunch room but Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald in that same lunch room shortly after Stanton... Stanton had an eating problem and it is very likely she ate before going out to watch the motorcade...So after having eaten in the 2nd floor lunch room she saw Oswald on the way out and asked if he was going to eat too...The reason Stanton asked was because of Oswald's proximity to the lunch room...It is even possible that Stanton saw Oswald on the staircase landing, went through the vestibule to talk to him out on the landing in order to invite him to view the motorcade, and then went back through the vestibule and exited via the hallway and front elevator... It is unlikely that Oswald was by the front staircase because Mrs Reid detailed going out that way on her way out to see the motorcade...If Oswald were by the front staircase on the 2nd floor Mrs Reid would have seen him there too and mentioned it...I would also imagine Stanton would have taken the elevator had she gone to the front staircase on the 2nd floor...The elevator is before you got to the staircase and separated from it, so Stanton would not be able to talk to Oswald had she taken the elevator... The Coke is clear confirmation of the lunch room encounter...It not only places Oswald in the lunch room where Carolyn Arnold saw him but it sets him up there as intending to eat... The Coke also gives validity to Mrs Reid, whom the Prayer Man people were dismissing as a xxxx who was in on the plot... Let's tally the score here: 2nd floor lunch room witnesses for Oswald - Sarah Stanton, Carolyn Arnold, Baker & Truly... Witnesses for Oswald being right in front of everyone on the portal landing: Z E R O ... Witnesses who describe in clear terms Prayer Man being Sarah Stanton: Buell Frazier... Billy Lovelady... This is the transcript of the relevant part of the interview with Mrs. Stanton's family members: 02:08: Sarah Stanton saw Lee Oswald on stairs. She asked if she was going down, and he said he is going upstairs.02:32: "No, I am going upstairs" "I came down to get the soda and I am going back ... to the room where he was working" 03:12: Sarah saw Lee Oswald holding a soda in his hand.04:26: Lee got the soda from the machine there.05:03: Sarah said Lee was going to eat and he just came to get a soda.05:48: Sarah asked if Lee was going to have lunch. He said: "No, I am going back to my room."06:09: "The reason ... She wanna to talk to him because he was a very quiet person... and he was not going to... to have a conversation with nobody".06:23: "So, she said he never talked, so she asked him if he was going out to lunch. And he said, "No, just a soda". "07:19: Sarah went down because President was already coming but he was not there yet. So she went to prepare herself and be on the stairs where she met Oswald.08:15: "He went upstairs". Sarah Stanton met Lee Oswald while he was already holding a Coke in his hand. Lee was on stairs during their encounter although this is a bit confusing as it is not clear outright if the stairs were between the first and second floor or the second and third floor. Lee holding a Coke before the motorcade was a big problem for the second floor encounter between Marrion Baker and Lee Oswald. Buying a Coke before the motorcade renders Lee's presence in the second floor lunchroom after the shooting entirely meaningless. This was the reason for suppressing Mrs. Stanton's statements by the law enforcement, even if her statements had played into the cards of Warren Commission: Lee, according to Mrs. Stanton, said he was going up to the room where he was working, which could be the fifth or sixth floor, the floors to which Warren Commission would have loved to pin Lee Oswald. There is also a problem with the time at which the encounter between Mrs. Stanton and Lee Oswald happened. Billy Lovelady's and Bill Shelley's testimonies for the Warren Commission suggest that both these men came out to the doorway early on, not some 5 minutes before the shooting, and Mrs. Stanton was already out when they came out. Mrs. Stanton was out much earlier than 12.25, possibly 12.10 or 12.15. The figure of Prayer Man in Darnell contains sufficient details to accept the possibility of Lee Oswald being Prayer Man. I understand that you see it differently and hope you will change your views later after you see more analyses of Prayer Man's figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) From out of the wilderness and badlands rides a mild mannered man who puts it all into right context. Excellent job, Andrej. Has anyone ever considered that Buell Frazier, Billy Lovelady, and Sarah Stanton may be prevaricating. Can't say quad-x here. It wouldn't have taken a genius to see from current events and later evens people were dying for what they knew. Mary Moorman's in law got the message when he was shot in the head and miraculously this freed the memory of seeing Oswald at the Tippett shooting. Buell Frazier appears to a bluff, honest fellow. But, is that really true? After all he was supposedly in the shadows in the doorway of the TSBD when Doorway Man was there and later on he was there when Prayer Man was there. Does he mention a word of Oswald, a Oswald double, Doorway Man, or Prayer Man being there? That's my biggest complaint with Buell Frazier. Edited July 31, 2018 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 There don't appear to be any insults in Brian Doyle's answer to Bart Kamp's post above (he wrote it before the posts by Mr. Stancak and Mr. Butler) and so I'm going to post it even though I think the whole PrayerSmudge controversy is silly because the image is too blurry to analyze credibly. Here's what Mr. Doyle wrote: Kamp's latest post tries to convince the Education Forum members that Frazier pointed-out Oswald to his left side...The reason Frazier points left is because when Stanton first came out she stood over on Frazier's left and he remembers her there...However, there's a very simple reason why Stanton isn't to Frazier's left at the time in question, and that is because we can't see Stanton to Frazier's left in Darnell...Stanton was tall enough and obese enough that she could not be missed in Darnell and we don't see her there... We are right back to Frazier's 2013 interview where he tells us he was facing Sarah Stanton and looking at her when Calvery got to the steps...The Couch/Darnell film shows Calvery climbing the steps with Betty Thornton...Since Thornton is seen next to Calvery in Zapruder we know that is Calvery on the steps because Calvery stayed with her...But we also know because Frazier said Lovelady & Shelley spoke to Calvery before they left the steps to go up the Elm St extension...Since Couch/Darnell shows Lovelady & Shelley about 3 seconds after speaking to Calvery at the steps we therefore know the woman in the black scarf next to Betty Thornton is Calvery...We also know Calvery is at the steps because Running Woman is Peggy Burney and she is obviously following Thornton and Calvery to the steps after being next to them in Zapruder... So once we confirm Calvery is climbing the steps we can conclude she has already finished her run shouting the president has been shot...In his 2013 interview, that Kamp posted, Frazier makes clear that after he heard Calvery say the president had been shot he looked at Sarah for a little while...There's no arguing that Frazier has detailed a very precise timing for when he was looking at Sarah and that timing necessitates that it was immediately following Calvery having communicated that the president had been shot...Since Couch/Darnell shows beyond any doubt the precise moment following Calvery's communication, we can assume Frazier is looking at Sarah at this time like he made clear...One look at Couch/Darnell shows Frazier facing Prayer Man at that moment, so that makes Prayer Man Stanton... Kamp neglects to include the 40:52 time mark for Frazier's 2013 interview where he describes this...Kamp also fails to show the Darnell close-up of the front steps where you can see Sarah is not to Frazier's left...All you can see to Frazier's left is Molina and Sarah was obese enough, as well as tall enough, to not be able to be hidden by Molina...We can then see that Prayer Man is Sarah Stanton's 5 foot 5 height...Has Stanton's chubby forearm...Has Stanton's wide hips...And finally has Stanton's precise shoulder line according to her obese upper arms... There's no doubt what so ever that Sarah Stanton is Prayer Man, as both Debra Conway and Sarah's grand daughter Wanda agreed, which means efforts would be better spent examining how Sarah Stanton's witnessing of Oswald near the 2nd floor lunch room with a Coke influences the true evidence and Oswald's true where abouts... Oh yeah, when Lovelady described the people around him on the steps from his left to his right he named Shelley, Frazier, and Stanton...Altgens places those same people in those same locations...Lovelady mentioned that Frazier was behind him, which means he was speaking in the context that Shelley and Stanton were beside him on either side and he saved the mentioning of those who were behind him for Frazier... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 (edited) Doyle says Prayer Man is Sarah Stanton. John Marten has captured Prayer Man on Elm Street as the presidential limousine passes by. Here is an image of that. See if Prayer Man looks like Sarah Stanton. Prayer Man's image is pretty much as it is in the doorway with hands in much the same position. I don't see a woman. I see a man. Edited August 12, 2018 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 (edited) Jim: I do not approve your posting of messages by a person who has been banned from this and other forums because of his insulting behaviour towards the moderators and other forum members. This person confuses his impressions and speculations with facts, and keeps repeating his false information without any ability to correct himself. Anyway: 1. The top of Prayer Man's head reached to 5'2'' in Darnell. This is an indisputable fact since the vertical and horizontal dimensions of the doorway are known and it is therefore possible to project the realistic dimensions of the doorway onto Darnell stills. Therefore, Mrs. Stanton who was 5'5'' could not pose as Prayer Man - she would be too tall. Period. After not passing the height criterion, the whole idea of Mrs. Stanton being Prayer Man collapses. The hair colour and the body build and Prayer Man's bent leg are further points refuting Sarah Stanton as Prayer Man. However, this is what the person you represent likes: to argue constantly about some perceptions and subjective assessments. 2. Mrs. Stanton, being a heavyset lady, required some space while on the top landing. The necessary space to accommodate her body was at the back of the doorway, close to the glass window. Please see here the top view of the top landing. It is an earlier version of the doorway with Mrs. Stanton still represented as a relatively thin lady wearing a light-colour shirt. Mrs. Stanton could not see much of events unfolding in front of her from that vantage point and this might have been the reason for a quick return to her office after the shooting. However, there is a "smudge" at the spot behind Bill Shelley's right shoulder in one of Darnell stills (top panel in the figure below) which would correspond to a person 5'5''. 3. As far as the presence of Mrs. Stanton in other films or pictures is concerned, Altgens6 shows the face of a person standing behind Billy Lovelady and close to Bill Shelley's right shoulder, which means to the left of Buell Wesley Frazier and consistent with all statements of Mr. Frazier. I am working on the 3D reconstruction of this scene for some time, and hope to be finished soon. Edited August 1, 2018 by Andrej Stancak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 16 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said: I never wanted this thread to be about PrayerSmudge.... The image is too fuzzy to make any kind of ID with certainty. But since folks here seem to want it to keep this going, I'm going to post the following Brian Doyle sent me a few days ago, though I'm removing one minor insult: Sarah Stanton almost certainly saw Oswald by the rear 2nd floor staircase landing...Speculation, there is no evidence from the interview to support this. Not only were Cokes sold right next to the staircase landing in the lunch room at least 25 feet away but Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald in that same lunch room shortly after Stanton... There nothing to support this either, only in Doyle's mind. Carolyn Arnold's observation 14 years after the fact is highly suspect as well. This has already been discussed. Stanton had an eating problem and it is very likely speculation she ate before going out to watch the motorcade...So after having eaten in the 2nd floor lunch room she saw Oswald on the way out and asked if he was going to eat too Whether he was going to go OUT for lunch is more precise as her Doyle's interview, something he omitted in his postings...The reason Stanton asked was because of Oswald's proximity to the lunch room...It is even possible that Stanton saw Oswald on the staircase landing, went through the vestibule to talk to him out on the landing in order to invite him to view the motorcade, and then went back through the vestibule and exited via the hallway and front elevator... Speculation. It is unlikely that Oswald was by the front staircase because Mrs Reid detailed going out that way on her way out to see the motorcade You have no idea about this and speculate some more. Reid left after Stanton and there could have been 5-10 mins difference. Reid stood in an entirely different group than Stanton....If (IF!!!!) Oswald were by the front staircase on the 2nd floor Mrs Reid would have seen him there too and mentioned it...I would also imagine Stanton would have taken the elevator had she gone to the front staircase on the 2nd floor...The elevator is before you got to the staircase and separated from it, so Stanton would not be able to talk to Oswald had she taken the elevator... The Coke is clear confirmation of the lunch room encounter No it isn't Richard it destroys it even more. What you present is misleading, the soda in his hand and the question whether he woud go out for lunch totally destroys it!...It not only places Oswald in the lunch room where Carolyn Arnold saw him but it sets him up there as intending to eat... The Coke also gives validity to Mrs Reid, whom the Prayer Man people were dismissing as a xxxx who was in on the plot... Reid lied, simples. Let's tally the score here: 2nd floor lunch room witnesses for Oswald - Sarah Stanton, Carolyn Arnold, Baker & Truly... Witnesses for Oswald being right in front of everyone on the portal landing: Z E R O ... Witnesses who describe in clear terms Prayer Man being Sarah Stanton: Buell Frazier... Billy Lovelady... Nope, perhaps in lalaland, but not in the real world. See in bold above! What a bunch of rubbish, seriously. Now I have a serious question to ask. Why is Richard Gilbride penning down Brain Doyle's messages for Jim Hargrove to place here? What kind of nefarious messing around is in action here? For what purpose? BOTH are not members here any more. Jim Hargrove why do you keep fuelling the fire? Have you forgotten the postings ten days ago already? What is the matter with you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said: There don't appear to be any insults in Brian Doyle's answer to Bart Kamp's post above (he wrote it before the posts by Mr. Stancak and Mr. Butler) and so I'm going to post it even though I think the whole PrayerSmudge controversy is silly because the image is too blurry to analyze credibly. Here's what Mr. Doyle wrote: Kamp's latest post tries to convince the Education Forum members that Frazier pointed-out Oswald to his left side...The reason Frazier points left is because when Stanton first came out she stood over on Frazier's left and he remembers her there...Poor speculation, nothing to substantiate this with. However, there's a very simple reason why Stanton isn't to Frazier's left at the time in question, and that is because we can't see Stanton to Frazier's left in Darnel Yes we can.l...Stanton was tall enough and obese enough that she could not be missed in Darnell and we don't see her there...Yes we do. We are right back to Frazier's 2013 interview where he tells us he was facing Sarah Stanton and looking at her when Calvery got to the steps...The Couch/Darnell film shows Calvery climbing the steps with Betty Thornton... To this date there has been no positive ID of Gloria Calvery anyone that claims otherwise cannot substantiate it. PERIOD! Since Thornton is seen next to Calvery in Zapruder we know that is Calvery on the steps because Calvery stayed with her...But we also know because Frazier said Lovelady & Shelley spoke to Calvery before they left the steps to go up the Elm St extension...Rubbish, Shelley's first handwritten statement between 2:30-3:30 states clearly they had left the steps and across the road ran into her. Sloppy....... Since Couch/Darnell shows Lovelady & Shelley about 3 seconds after speaking to Calvery at the steps No it does not Richard, they have left already. we therefore know the woman in the black scarf next to Betty Thornton is Calvery..."Amazing conclusive research" We also know Calvery is at the steps because Running Woman is Peggy Burney and she is obviously following Thornton and Calvery to the steps after being next to them in Zapruder...Again no evidence to support this. So once we confirm Calvery is climbing the steps we can conclude she has already finished her run shouting the president has been shot..Such speculative rubbish..In his 2013 interview, that Kamp posted, Frazier makes clear that after he heard Calvery say the president had been shot he looked at Sarah for a little while...There's no arguing that Frazier has detailed a very precise timing for when he was looking at Sarah and that timing necessitates that it was immediately following Calvery having communicated that the president had been shot...Since Couch/Darnell shows beyond any doubt the precise moment following Calvery's communication, we can assume Frazier is looking at Sarah at this time like he made clear...One look at Couch/Darnell shows Frazier facing Prayer Man at that moment, so that makes Prayer Man Stanton... Kamp neglects to include the 40:52 time mark for Frazier's 2013 interview where he describes this...Kamp also fails to show the Darnell close-up of the front steps where you can see Sarah is not to Frazier's left...All you can see to Frazier's left is Molina and Sarah was obese enough, as well as tall enough, to not be able to be hidden by Molina...We can then see that Prayer Man is Sarah Stanton's 5 foot 5 height...Has Stanton's chubby forearm...Has Stanton's wide hips...And finally has Stanton's precise shoulder line according to her obese upper arms... Wrong, I have IDed Stanton on the steps. East! There's no doubt what so ever that Sarah Stanton is Prayer Man, as both Debra Conway and Sarah's grand daughter Wanda agreed, which means efforts would be better spent examining how Sarah Stanton's witnessing of Oswald near the 2nd floor lunch room with a Coke influences the true evidence and Oswald's true where abouts... Oh yeah, when Lovelady described the people around him on the steps from his left to his right he named Shelley, Frazier, and Stanton...Altgens places those same people in those same locations.Nope, wrong...Lovelady mentioned that Frazier was behind him, which means he was speaking in the context COME AGAIN? that Shelley and Stanton were beside him on either side and he saved the mentioning of those who were behind him for Frazier...Wrong, and there is zero evidence to support this. See in bold above. Oh and strike throughs are mine as well. It is more than evident that Richard Gilbride has concocted a nice speculative story with nothing to support, why? Because Doyle has run out of arguments, he is done for and Gilbride is working with him on this. As a last resort Gilbride is helping him. So now we have two members who have been rightly kicked off here conveying their messages which amount to nothing more than unsupported dross, and Jim Hargrove you are culpable. Hope you guys have fun, ROKC does too. The very same guy wrote this less than a week ago. "Gordon is a fraud who is just there to make sure his Prayer Man friends are free from critics...I'd like to sue that bastard...Andrej runs to Gordon's warm tit faster than Lauren runs to Jim D's warm ass crack...But the real credibility is here with me..." Edited August 1, 2018 by Bart Kamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Mitcham Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 By associating yourself with Doyle, so closely, Jim, you are making yourself look like you agree with him, which makes you look as silly as he. I agree with Andrej. You shouldn't post his (or Gilbride's😊) comments on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted August 1, 2018 Author Share Posted August 1, 2018 Ray, Actually, I don’t agree with anyone who claims to know the identity of PrayerSmudge, including Brian Doyle. As I’ve said at least a dozen times, the image is too fuzzy to make a credible ID. The purpose of this thread was to provide new information that relatives of Sarah Stanton say she told them that she saw LHO carrying a soda inside the TSBD just prior to the assassination. It is clearly hearsay evidence, and therefore of limited value, but it is NEW evidence nevertheless, and worth adding to the body of evidence we now have. Since everyone else seems only interested in debating endlessly the PrayerSmudge controversy, I thought, out of fairness, Brian Doyle should have a chance to respond to his critics. He, after all, made the effort to speak to Stanton’s daughter-in-law and granddaughter. I would have let this thread die off some time ago, but the PrayerMan proponents want to keep arguing about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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