Sarah Stanton spoke to Oswald, holding a Coke, near stairway shortly before witnessing motorcade, according to Stanton relative....

[John Butler]

Andrej,

Excellent point as always.  5'9".  And, who was that height as measured at his death?  PM/Harvey Oswald.  The only Oswald you see in most media.  Lee's imaginary is almost entirely removed from the record.

Do you have an opinion on what PM / Oswald is holding in his hands?

Edited June 19, 2018 by John Butler

[Guest]

Soda bottle.

 

[Guest]

The statements by Frazier, Stanton's family and Stanton and Sanders' affidavits sinks Doyle's and MacRae;s theory from the word get go.

I'd expect more from MacRae but he is slacking these days. Perhaps even he thinks that the joke lasted long enough. Then again.

Grey/White hair, 300 lb and obese.....The death of Prayer Woman.

 

[John Butler]

Yeah,  I thought that for the longest time.  But, if you look close there is a gap between his hands wider than a, as we use to say, pop bottle unless he was holding it end to end horizontally. 

All of the images I can see (and that is one heck of a problem with the poor imagery available) it is something wider, perhaps wider than a bottle.  To me this is an important idea.

I am being led into a wild, speculation every time I look at PM in Weigman, Darnell, and John Martin.  The speculation has to do with what he is holding.  Buell Frazier mentioned in the interview no one had a camera.  Or, at least he didn't notice.  That looked suspiciously like a practiced answer.  There is no way to confirm that with a yeah or nay.  I also noted that Frazier omitted PM or Oswald being there on the landing with him.  Now, that is suspicious since 2 of the 3 films put a person there we call PM.

If you are interested I'll type out my wild speculation in detail.  I don't think it does any harm to the PM notion.

Thanks for your earlier reply. 

Edited June 19, 2018 by John Butler

[Andrej Stancak]

The interview also sheds some light on the conflict between Mrs. Stanton's testimony for the FBI in which she claimed that she did not see Oswald in Friday, November 22, and her description of her encounter with Lee Oswald which she conferred to her family members. Mrs. Stanton was most likely coerced by the FBI to lie about her encounter with Lee Oswald before the shooting. Mrs. Stanton agreed, possibly in exchange for receiving some guarantees that she would never be called to testify again. Further, although she did sign the FBI statement, she did not make any statement under oath, and so she did not perjure herself. Knowing that she did not sign a truthful account, Mrs. Stanton avoided talking with anybody about her encounter with Lee Oswald on that fateful Friday, possibly because someone would flag up the contrast between her FBI statements and her true account. She did say it to people whom she trusted because she did not feel bound to lie to her family. We should be thankful to Mrs. Stanton for that. The reason for suppressing Mrs. Stanton's account was most likely the fact that Mrs. Stanton saw Lee Oswald with a soda too long before the assassination. 

Late edit: Mrs. Stanton's story actually played into the lone shooter theory which was well established with the FBI early on and even more so in  the spring of 1964 when Mrs. Stanton was interviewed by the FBI. So, why would the FBI suppresss a testimony in which Lee is seen by another Depository employee to go upstairs, and even saying that he was going upstairs and will not have a lunch. This would fit with Lee Oswald's plan to kill the President - he went downstairs and then went back upstairs to accomplish his misdeed. Yet, the FBI was not interested in anyone hearing Mrs. Stanton's story. Why is it so? The coke is the problem: Mrs. Stanton saw Lee with a bottle of coke very early on, maybe at 12.10, or 12.15 as the latest. However, the made-up second floor encounter also needed a fresh coke (at least so it has been arranged) and that would not fare well with Mrs. Stanton's account.

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Andrej Stancak]

This leads us to the question when did Mrs. Stanton see Lee Harvey Oswald on Friday, November 22. In my opinion, Mrs. Stanton went out early, possibly around 12.10 PM, and that was the time when she met Lee Oswald on stairs. 

This early time estimate refers to two testimonies: the testimony of Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady. 

1. Billy Lovelady came to the first floor at 11.50 or 12.00noon:

Mr. BALL - What time did you quit work that day or knock off for lunch that day? 

Mr. LOVELADY - Same time, 12. 
Mr. BALL - A little before 12? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, we came down at 10 minutes til to wash up and get ready for it.

He washed his hands, went up to the second floor to buy a coke, and came back with the coke to the first floor.  In the next, he saw Mrs. Stanton through the glass door and decided to go out. He saw Mrs. Stanton there:

Mr. BALL - What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down. 
Mr. BALL - Upstairs on what floor? 
Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there. 
Mr. BALL - You ate your lunch on the steps? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL - Who was with you? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me 
Mr. BALL - What was that last name? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton. 
Mr. BALL - What is the first name? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley. 
Mr. BALL - And Stanton's first name? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Miss Sarah Stanton. 

2. Bill Shelley confirmed the presence of Mrs. Stanton in the doorway before Billy Lovelady came out and even before he himself came out:

Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the motorcade and I went out to join them.
Mr. BALL - And who was out there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards.
Mr. BALL - You were standing where?
Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance? 
Mr. SHELLEY - yes.

It should be noted that neither Bill Shelley nor Billy Lovelady would be able to spot Mrs. Sarah Stanton if she stood at Prayer Man's location. Taken together, it is impossible that Mrs. Stanton would get to the doorway at 12.25, at the time when Carolyne Arnold allegedly saw Lee Oswald on the second floor. The motorcade was due to arrive at 12.25, and that would be too late for Mrs. Stanton to start preparing for the motorcade as she was describing it to the members of her family.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Guest]

Carolyn Arnold did not see Oswald on the second floor. Molina did not, who left at 12:15, nor did Bonnie Richey, nor did Mrs Reid who left at 12:25!!!

Arnold is noted as being part of a group leaving in other witness' statements

She sees Oswald through the glass in an FBI statement of the 24th. This statement is suppressed and fished out by Weisberg a few years later.

15 years after the deed and the HSCA is in full swing her name comes up and she talks to Earl Golz, Anthony Summers and The National Enq.

She refuses to take part in TMWKK

According to her interviews she went back to get a glass of water, as she was pregnant at the time. There are no water facilities of any kind visible in any of the shots of the 2nd floor lunch room. There is no tap, no sink. No water dispenser.

In the Stone film the water fountain is depicted as next to the lunch room door, which is a fairy tale. There was nothing there.

The only visible sign of a water supply was in Gary Murr's FBI drawing he nabbed from NARA: a water cooler in the corridor not far away from the office doors and the lunchroom doors.

The second fl lunch room was off limits to labourers, they could get a coke and that was it. Oswald had his lunch usually in The Domino Room on the first floor.

 

If Stanton talked w Oswald near the stairs (which ones btw??) and with a soda in his hands before the motorcade passed by then that pretty much eliminates the 2nd fl lunch room encounter by itself.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Bart Kamp

[Ron Bulman]

5 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Carolyn Arnold did not see Oswald on the second floor. Molina did not, who left at 12:15, nor did Bonnie Richey, nor did Mrs Reid who left at 12:25!!!

Arnold is noted as being part of a group leaving in other witness' statements

She sees Oswald through the glass in an FBI statement of the 24th. This statement is suppressed and fished out by Weisberg a few years later.

15 years after the deed and the HSCA is in full swing her name comes up and she talks to Earl Golz, Anthony Summers and The National Enq.

She refuses to take part in TMWKK

According to her interviews she went back to get a glass of water, as she was pregnant at the time. There are no water facilities of any kind visible in any of the shots of the 2nd floor lunch room. There is no tap, no sink. No water dispenser.

In the Stone film the water fountain is depicted as next to the lunch room door, which is a fairy tale. There was nothing there.

The only visible sign of a water supply was in Gary Murr's FBI drawing he nabbed from NARA: a water cooler in the corridor not far away from the office doors and the lunchroom doors.

The second fl lunch room was off limits to labourers, they could get a coke and that was it. Oswald had his lunch usually in The Domino Room on the first floor.

 

If Stanton talked w Oswald near the stairs (which ones btw??) and with a soda in his hands before the motorcade passed by then that pretty much eliminates the 2nd fl lunch room encounter by itself.

Concise,  to the point.  In addition to being usually deep and prescient/relevant that's what I admire about your work Bart.  It's just about always enlightening.  Wish I had more time to dig myself.  Thanks for doing so for the rest of us.

[Andrej Stancak]

14 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

So ehm Buell where was Sarah Stanton standing? At 53:00

 

 

Left,of course left just as the statements already been saying......

 

Any questions?

This interview alone seals the case. Mr. Frazier confirmed very clearly without any hesitations that a lady stood to his left, not to his right. This is consistent with the person, which I have estimated earlier to be 5'4'', standing behind Mr. Shelley's right shoulder and to the left of Mr. Frazier. There was enough space there, and Mrs. Stanton obviously needed space since she was a huge lady. This puts her in the back row of spectators and this is the reason we only see glimpses of her figure in Darnell. Fortunately, there is a partial face in Altgens6 which was at a similar location (slightly more forward though) as in Darnell and at a height corresponding to the height at which Mrs. Stanton would have her face. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Jim Hargrove]

15 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Jim:

thanks for posting this audio recording. In spite of containing many leading questions and maneuvering the two ladies to adopt certain views, the interview does contain useful information. Importantly, the interview confirms the authenticity of the photograph in which Mrs. Stanton was photographed with her son Larry. The paragraph below contains the points which the ladies have confirmed:

00:25  Sarah Stanton talked about the assassination with members of her family, it was always the same story.
01:21: Sarah stood on the front steps during the shooting and she left the doorway immediately after the shooting to get a better view.
01:26: Lee Oswald was drinking a soda when he was seen by Sarah.
01:36: Sarah Stanton was a very big woman.
02:08: Sarah Stanton saw Lee Oswald on stairs. She asked if she was going down, and he said he is going upstairs.
02:32: "No, I am going upstairs" "I came down to get the soda and I am going back ... to the room where he was working"    
03:12: Sarah saw Lee Oswald holding a soda in his hand.
04:26: Lee got the soda from the machine there.
05:03: Sarah said Lee was going to eat and he just came to get a soda.
05:48: Sarah asked if Lee was going to have lunch. He said: "No, I am going back to my room."
06:09: "The reason ... She wanna to talk to him because he was a very quiet person... and he was not going to... to have a conversation with nobody".
06:23: "So, she said he never talked, so she asked him if he was going out to lunch. And he said, "No, just a soda". "
07:19: Sarah went down because President was already coming but he was not there yet. So she went to prepare herself and be on the stairs where she met Oswald.
08:15: "He went upstairs".
08:35: When asked if Sarah spoke to the FBI, the answer was "I dont' think so". Wanda explains: "She did not wanna speak. And we don't know her reasons for it... but she did not want to speak to anybody,  and they were harassing her.... not harassing her, but any calls or I don't know they were coming over and trying to get information ... she really did not want to say anything, she did not want to be bothered."
09:50: The ladies could not confirm that Sarah spoke to the FBI.
09:59: Lee Oswald was a very quiet person, did not speak to anybody.
11:41: "We would not know what she told them" (the FBI).
12:23: Confirmed that Sarah was Prayer Man because of the body shape.
12:28: Oswald went up before the motorcade came through.
13:58: When asked to confirm that Sarah had the same characteristics as Prayer Man, both women confirmed.
14:07: Confirmed that Sarah was about 5'5''.
14:37: Sarah could also be 5'6''.
14:49: Sarah herself said she was 5'4'' - 5'6''.
15:00: Agreed that their conclusion that Sarah was Prayer Man was owing to Sarah being taller than other doorway occupants.
15:36: Sarah weighed at least 300 pounds. She was over 300 pounds.
16:11: Sarah was big at the bottom and her hips, less so at her top.  Her arms were big.
16:30: The picture with Sarah and her son Larry is not exactly from 1963 because Sarah was even bigger at that time than when she was photographed with Larry.
17:28: The colour of Sarah's hair was grey in 1963. 
18:41: Not remembered that Sarah would be ever dying her hair. 
19:09: Maybe Sarah had a wig (laughing).
21:26: Did not agree that the face seen in Davidson's enhancement of Wiegman frame was Sarah's face.
22:20: Sarah was looking at the street, not in a purse.
22:30: The ladies think that Prayer Man was a woman.
22:48: Larry was tall over 6 feet.
23:29: Larry was 6'1''.

Andrej,

Megathanks for taking the time to create this outline of Mr. Doyle’s interview with Sarah Stanton’s family members.  Anyone willing to take time out from the endless PrayerMan squabbles can see the significance of these recollections.  Although clearly hearsay, it is yet another indication that, shortly before the assassination of JFK, “Lee Harvey Oswald” was not on the sixth floor of the building preparing to fire a Magic Bullet from a Magic Carcano at JFK.  How sad that so few people in this thread seem much interested in that.
 

[Jim Hargrove]

15 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

 Of course, the interview is fatal to the theory that Sarah Stanton was Prayer Man. As I explained in a different thread, it is not worthy to argue about the hair colour or the shape of the hairline as this will end in both sides claiming their points ad infinitum without any resolution. Sarah Stanton was a tall person (given that the average height of females in her age category was 5'2'' in 1963) and it turns out that she was just too tall to be Prayer Man. The most simple way to demonstrate Mrs. Stanton's body height in the doorway is by fitting a measuring stick to Mr. Frazier's body. As his body height was 6' or 6'1/2 '', it is possible to draw a line at 5'5''. The line runs far above Prayer Man's head which reached to 5'2''. This does not mean that Prayer Man was 5'2'' because he stood with his right foot on the second step and therefore, Prayer Man's body height was 5'2'' + 7'' (the height of one step) = 5'9''.   

I hope this is my one and only comment on PrayerMan,  but I don’t see how your measurements rule out Sarah Stanton as PrayerMan.  The fuzzy figure could be leaning back against the building for support, which wouldn’t be unusual for such a heavy woman.  To me, the forearms look pretty thick, as you would expect Stanton’s to be.  I hope to never make another comment about who FuzzyPerson was, because I have no idea, but I am not convinced by anyone's arguments.

[Jim Hargrove]

15 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

The interview also sheds some light on the conflict between Mrs. Stanton's testimony for the FBI in which she claimed that she did not see Oswald in Friday, November 22, and her description of her encounter with Lee Oswald which she conferred to her family members.

More likely is that the FBI just altered her testimony, as was done in so many other instances.  For example, the short (3 minute) YouTube video below demonstrates quite clearly how the FBI altered the observations of three critical Dealey Plaza witnesses who believed shots may have been taken at JFK from outside of the Texas School Book Depository, thus contradicting the official story.

 

Apparently, Sarah Stanton also contradicted the official story.

The FBI went to extraordinary lengths to suppress evidence of what CIA accountant James Wilcott called the “Oswald Project,” including sending out agents within hours of the assassination to confiscate original school and teen-aged employment records of “Lee Harvey Oswald.” In the wee hours of the night of Nov 22-23, 1963, the FBI secretly took “Oswald's Possessions” from the Dallas Police Department, transported them to Washington, D.C. altered them, and then secretly returned them to Dallas, only to publicly send them to Washington. D.C. a few days later. Among a great many other alterations, a Minox “spy camera” became a Minox “light meter.” Tax records, not found by Dallas police who said they initialed each scrap of paper, magically appeared without DPD initials.  FBI agent James Cadigan inadvertently spilled the bean about the secret transfer during his sworn WC testimony, which was altered by the WC.

 

The FBI falsified so much testimony that it even had a process in place for routinely doing so, including over the objections of Warren Commission attorneys.  

 

 

[Guest]

Sarah Stanton:

Obese

300 Lbs

Grey white hair.......

And not confirmed by the ladies even after Doyle leading her, after he used Linda's info.

 

 

 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Concise,  to the point.  In addition to being usually deep and prescient/relevant that's what I admire about your work Bart.  It's just about always enlightening.  Wish I had more time to dig myself.  Thanks for doing so for the rest of us.

Thanks Ron, but Doyle begs to differ, but he sucks at gathering evidence and presenting the bigger pic. 

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by Bart Kamp

[Andrej Stancak]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 but I don’t see how your measurements rule out Sarah Stanton as PrayerMan.

Jim:

I spent three years reconstructing the doorway in 3D. The logic is the following: if we have an accurate 3D model of the doorway, based on measured dimensions of all its aspects, it is possible to orient the doorway to the same view as seen in a historic photograph. Then, by just decreasing or increasing the size of one of the images (the original or a 2D picture of the 3D doorway), one can achieve a very good alignment between the model and the doorway. I am checking the quality of the alignment by overlaying the original (e.g., Darnell) still with the 3D model. The essential added value of this method is that various objects in the historic photograph (e.g., people)  also achieve realistic dimensions (inherited from the 3D model),  and it is possible then to read their sizes. Therefore, I am able to read the height of the top of Prayer Man's head and can see it is 5'2''. If my mannequin would be e.g., taller than Prayer Man, the overlay would reveal a mismatch in the model's body height. As far as the body orientations and leaning and tilting are concerned, those need to be reproduced as accurately as possible. I am using Poser 11.1 to model some characters, such as Prayer Man.

You can read more about my methods on my blog: http://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com .

I am placing here one overlay of my 3D model and a Darnell still. Please note a light spot to the right of Mr. Shelley's head (the man in a black suit on the top platform).  This, in my humble opinion, is what belongs to Mrs. Stanton who stood back there on the top landing, and to the left of Mr. Frazier. 

 

And this is an example of my 3D reconstruction of Altgens6 (in development)  showing a very good alignment between the 3D model and Altgens6. A-D show overlays at different blending rates.

 

I hope this may help you to understand my methods better.

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by Andrej Stancak