LBJ & Nixon Meeting on 11/21/63?

[W. Niederhut]

         One of the most intriguing claims that Roger Stone made in his book, Nixon's Secrets, was that LBJ and Richard Nixon met privately, for three hours, in Dallas on the afternoon of November 21, 1963.  Not that I consider Stone a reliable source of information, but I have often pondered this one.

        First of all, is it true?  Nixon, apparently, attended the party at the Murchison mansion that night, and flew out of Dallas on the morning of November 22nd-- later giving conflicting accounts of how he had learned about JFK's assassination.  (Oliver Stone depicted the scene of a very nervous Dick Nixon (Anthony Hopkins) being plied with booze and teased by strippers at Murchison's party in his film, Nixon.)

      Secondly, if it happened, what did LBJ and Nixon talk about for three hours on November 21, 1963?

      These two sociopaths would occupy the White House for the next decade, after 11/22/63, and they would both preside over a series of truly genocidal bombing campaigns in Southeast Asia.

Edited July 27, 2018 by W. Niederhut

[Ron Bulman]

W., a lot of people who believe in a conspiracy, that even believe LBJ Might have had foreknowledge or even Might have played a minor role don't have a lot of confidence that the Murchison party ever happened.  And, that if it did LBJ was there.  Meeting with Nixon in the afternoon for three hours is pretty much impossible.  He participated in the parade and was there for the speech in San Antonio between 1:30 - 3:30.  He was then there for the Houston parade and the Albert Thomas dinner from 4:15 to 10:00 PM.  I've never heard anything different than he was on Airforce II when it landed in Fort Worth a little after 11:00.  I guess LeMay could have had a military chopper waiting for him there and nobody noticed but I've never read anything about such?

I've wondered before if Nixon wasn't drawn there on a pretext.  I.E. his presence there the night before and that morning might be used against him somehow in the future if needed (that whole bay of pigs thing?).  If he knew more in advance he did have the sense to get out of big d before the big event. 

[Ron Bulman]

17 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

W., a lot of people who believe in a conspiracy, that even believe LBJ Might have had foreknowledge or even Might have played a minor role don't have a lot of confidence that the Murchison party ever happened.  And, that if it did LBJ was there.  Meeting with Nixon in the afternoon for three hours is pretty much impossible.  He participated in the parade and was there for the speech in San Antonio between 1:30 - 3:30.  He was then there for the Houston parade and the Albert Thomas dinner from 4:15 to 10:00 PM.  I've never heard anything different than he was on Airforce II when it landed in Fort Worth a little after 11:00.  I guess LeMay could have had a military chopper waiting for him there and nobody noticed but I've never read anything about such?

I've wondered before if Nixon wasn't drawn there on a pretext.  I.E. his presence there the night before and that morning might be used against him somehow in the future if needed (that whole bay of pigs thing?).  If he knew more in advance he did have the sense to get out of big d before the big event. 

Oops, forgot to post the link.

[Kathleen Collins]

There is a photo of Nixon on 11/22/1963 sitting in an airport after a few drinks (I believe) and noticeably crying.  I don't have the photo in this computer, but if you come across it, resize it and see the tears under his eyes.

I believe he knew Kennedy was going to die, and there was nothing he could do about it.  He himself would be in danger and his family.

Nixon suffered from a melancholy alcoholism.  He was paranoid.  I saw a clip once where the camera did this swing over the people in the funeral church.  The look on Nixon's face, his eyes.  He knew Kennedy was going to die and had an absolute panicked expression.  I never saw or heard Nixon say anything but good things about all the Kennedy brothers.  For instance, in the Frost/Nixon tapes.

Dems my 2 cents.

Kathy C

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

W., a lot of people who believe in a conspiracy, that even believe LBJ Might have had foreknowledge or even Might have played a minor role don't have a lot of confidence that the Murchison party ever happened.  And, that if it did LBJ was there.  Meeting with Nixon in the afternoon for three hours is pretty much impossible.  He participated in the parade and was there for the speech in San Antonio between 1:30 - 3:30.  He was then there for the Houston parade and the Albert Thomas dinner from 4:15 to 10:00 PM.  I've never heard anything different than he was on Airforce II when it landed in Fort Worth a little after 11:00.  I guess LeMay could have had a military chopper waiting for him there and nobody noticed but I've never read anything about such?

I've wondered before if Nixon wasn't drawn there on a pretext.  I.E. his presence there the night before and that morning might be used against him somehow in the future if needed (that whole bay of pigs thing?).  If he knew more in advance he did have the sense to get out of big d before the big event. 

    Thanks for the info, Ron.  Obviously, the story about an LBJ-Nixon meeting in Dallas on 11/21/63 doesn't sound credible, if LBJ was touring the Lone Star state with JFK and Jackie.

      I'll have to go back and study this issue of Nixon and Dallas.  I thought I read somewhere that Nixon was speaking at a business convention in Dallas that week.

      Apparently, GHWB was also in Dallas, at an oilman's convention at the Sheraton on 11/21/63.  

      Nixon was Ike's liaison to Operation 40 (Bay of Pigs) in 1960, and GHWB was also involved with Op 40, according to Russ Baker (?)

     Loose associations.  I sometimes have a tendency to look for connections where none exist, although Bob Haldeman wrote that Nixon tended to refer to JFK's assassination as, "that Bay of Pigs thing."

[Ron Bulman]

32 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

    Thanks for the info, Ron.  Obviously, the story about an LBJ-Nixon meeting in Dallas on 11/21/63 doesn't sound credible, if LBJ was touring the Lone Star state with JFK and Jackie.

      I'll have to go back and study this issue of Nixon and Dallas.  I thought I read somewhere that Nixon was speaking at a business convention in Dallas that week.

      Apparently, GHWB was also in Dallas, at an oilman's convention at the Sheraton on 11/21/63.  

      Nixon was Ike's liaison to Operation 40 (Bay of Pigs) in 1960, and GHWB was also involved with Op 40, according to Russ Baker (?)

     Loose associations.  I sometimes have a tendency to look for connections where none exist, although Bob Haldeman wrote that Nixon tended to refer to JFK's assassination as, "that Bay of Pigs thing."

Yep, Nixon was at the Pepsi convention with Joan Crawford in attendance I believe, as a lawyer for them and owner respectively.  George Herbert Walker Bush was also there that night at something weird like a tool and dye makers for the oil industry convention., not a schmooze with the fellow members of the Dallas Petroleum Club event, though he was on his first run for congress at the time.  He ended up in Tyler, 100 miles away at about 2:00 giving a campaign speech that was discontinued with news of the assassination.

The question has been asked before, how quick can you get to Tyler from Red Bird Airport in a powerful small plane.  

Edited July 28, 2018 by Ron Bulman

[James DiEugenio]

This is what makes me wonder about Roger Stone.

I mean in fifty years, no one had made this claim, at least as far as I know.

But somehow he comes out with this in his book.  Now, the only source could be Nixon right?  He was conveniently dead.

And, my God, Nixon at the Murchison gathering?  Puhlese.

 

[Joe Bauer]

17 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

W., a lot of people who believe in a conspiracy, that even believe LBJ Might have had foreknowledge or even Might have played a minor role don't have a lot of confidence that the Murchison party ever happened.  

Have any researchers/writers besides Martin Shackleford, Penn Jones and Dave Perry ever decently investigated the Murchison party/get-together to determine whether it happened, the date of it happening and who may have attended...beyond these persons and the well known claims of Madeline Brown and May Newman?

Both Brown and Newman recount the event with many specific personal details.

Brown's account was found to contain several provable errors but it's reasonably debatable whether these errors specifically or in total mean the meeting never took place. 

May Newman's account rings true to me as I find her credible for many reasons.

Her very loyal long term employment with Virginia Murchison. Her obvious non-corrupt background.  The lack of any credibility and bad character claims against her by anyone who knew or worked with her at any point in her life and that someone would expect to come forward ( or be sought out ) if she were this way following her explosive story via the international exposure documentary "The Men Who Killed Kennedy."

And in my common sense - life time experience mind May Newman would have to have been a fairly well trained actress to so convincingly evoke the choked up emotions she exhibited when she told of how the "champagne and caviar flowed...for a week after " in the Murchison household after JFK's slaughter. And at the same time it seemed to her that she was the only one grieving for JFK and his family in this sick week long death celebration scene during that time.

Dave Perry's critical analysis of Martin Shackleford's and Penn Jones's and Brown's and Newman's accounts of the Murchison get-together is so weak it's barely worth reading.

Using the wife of Murchison driver Warren Tilley as a counter to Newman's account of Virginia Murchison chauffeur Jule Fifer ( correct spelling unknown) and his driving duties the night of 11,21,1963 was ridiculous.

Citing Dallas newspaper society writer Val Imm as a discrediting source is also laughably weak. Read what Ms. Imm actually says in Perry's piece.  She doesn't deny the meeting took place. She just doesn't remember it. And what idiot would invited a social scene/gossip columnist to a meeting like this? 

And perhaps an earlier social gathering provided a cover for what happened after this?

Where the real cigar smoke filled back room good-ole-boy meeting took place?

So the house in question was owned by Murchison's son John at that time and not the old man himself? Who could keep track of property transfers within family ( it was still a "Murchison" home ) especially a little person like Madeline Brown?

It would make perfect sense that LBJ's powerful and egomaniacal oil baron backers ( the richest men on Earth at that time ) would personally want to see or hear from their biggest political asset at some time while he ( LBJ ) was so close in proximity to their home base location, if even for a few minutes only.  These megalomania guys and their extreme right organizations must have been in an uptight angst frenzy ( RFK had General Walker thrown into a mental ward!) knowing their hated enemy JFK was actually parading right through the heart of their personal sacred ground fiefdom and to the cheers of tens of thousands sized adoring crowds.

Trying to discredit Madeline Brown and May Newman and others versus those who defend and promote the other side of these 11,21,1963 Murchison household get-together claims ( super wealthy extreme right wing death celebrating JFK haters ) is really an invalid endeavor. Especially if one uses the Dave Perry report as their main justification for such.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Joe Bauer

[Douglas Caddy]

Billie Sol told me that LBJ arranged for a U.S. military aircraft to carry Mac Wallace from Washington to destinations where certain victims were murdered. Of course, the pilot(s) of the plane only knew that they were transporting some VIP to and from a destination.

LBJ had several close associates in Texas who owned  planes that could have transported him to attend the Murchison affair; after all it is alleged that he did arrive late.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Douglas Caddy

[Joe Bauer]

18 hours ago, Douglas Caddy said:

Billie Sol told me that LBJ arranged for a U.S. military aircraft to carry Mac Wallace from Washington to destinations where certain victims were murdered. Of course, the pilot(s) of the plane only knew that they were transporting some VIP to and from a destination.

LBJ had several close associates in Texas who owned  planes that could have transported him to attend the Murchison affair; after all it is alleged that did he arrive late.

Doug, it is so reasonable to believe that secret flights were implemented all the time ( and still are ) for covert activities by who-knows-who in our highest levels of political, military, corporate and organized crime power,  to give cover for one's presence somewhere else besides their official record stated presence elsewhere.

Hoover could have easily had an unrecorded flight from DC to Dallas that evening and one back to DC...all within the time frame it would take to do so.

I am sure that hit men employed by nefarious groups and individuals use this tactic all the time.  Do the deed...and then fly far away within minutes.

William Robert "Tosh" Plumlee did this duty many times as a pilot. David Ferry as well.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Joe Bauer

[Douglas Caddy]

Joe: Let us not forget about D.H. Byrd.

The rich and powerful also use commercial railroad trains to get around without being publicly noticed. Many decades ago an acquaintance in Houston was interviewed by Barbara Bush, who was having her hair done at home while conducting the interview, to be the chef on a private rail car that George and Barbara owned for travel within the continental United States. She stipulated that if he were chosen for the position he be required to sign an air -tight non-disclosure confidential agreement that contained severe penalties if he breached it. If time were not of the essence, this would also be a great way to transport a trusted person to carry out a secret mission.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Douglas Caddy

[W. Niederhut]

    Oliver Stone, Eric Hamburg, and the script writers for Stone's 1994 film, Nixon, interviewed a number of people from Nixon's inner circle before production, in an effort to get the details correct.  (Richard Helms threatened to sue Stone, and the fascinating film scenes featuring Sam Waterston as Helms are only included in the DVD of the Director's cut.)

   Of course, the screenplay is historical fiction, but it certainly included Nixon at the Murchison party on 11/21/63, with a composite character representing the Texas oil men--  Murchison, H.L. Hunt, and Sid Richardson.  It would be interesting to know who Oliver Stone and his co-authors used as sources for the Murchison party scene.

Edited July 29, 2018 by W. Niederhut

[Ron Bulman]

I don't  think Nixon, Hoover or LBJ would have gone to a party at Murchison's ranch north of Dallas the night before the assassination if they had prior knowledge.  They wouldn't knowingly associate themselves with each other or him in front of others at the scene of the crime so to speak the night before it happened.  Yes they all knew each other, maybe some or all had prior knowledge through contacts, but they wouldn't have been seen together in front of others the night before.  None of them were planners or operatives in the assassination.  If they felt a need to communicate they had people who could deliver messages discreetly.

Did Murchison have a party the night before?  Maybe.  If it happened did Madeline Brown attend?  Maybe.  Did she hear him, a Hunt or somebody say something about they ought to shoot the sob?

I wouldn't use Dave Perry as a source.

I don't doubt Murchison celebrated.  He had reason.

But I do doubt Nixon, Hoover, LBJ or him would potentially expose themselves when it was a CIA operation they weren't a part of operationally.   None of them were that stupid.  

[James DiEugenio]

Seamus Coogan did a nice analysis of this.

I once traced it from its very beginning with Penn jones to its most recent evolution as of about 1985.

It went even beyond that. After all that,  I don't buy  it.

Edited July 29, 2018 by James DiEugenio

[Joseph McBride]

The story about the party does not seem credible to me.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Joseph McBride