“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...

[Ron Bulman]

Re reading parts of Girl on The Stairs.  Barry Earnst finally found Sandra Styles, who accompanied Vicki Adams down the stairs but the Warren Omission ignored in 2002.  He read Vicki's purported statement about seeing Lovelady and Shelly on the first floor.  "I can't imagine why Vicki would have said that - if she did."  "All I can say...is that Shelly and Lovelady were definitely not on the first floor when we got there."

[Jim Hargrove]

I’m more than halfway through The Girl on the Stairs and it’s a good read.  Well written and a nice overview of the case.  But has anyone ever confirmed what Mr. Ernest has written about Adams and Styles?  On a case this complex, I don’t believe you can base any conclusions on what just one person argues, no matter how well that argument is put together.

If it is true that the Shelley/Lovelady sighting was added by the WC to David Belin’s questioning of Ms. Adams, then the questions asked during the testimony of Shelley and Lovelady just a couple of hours later by Joseph Ball also had to be altered.  Adams’  2/17/64 statement recorded by DPD detective Leavelle also had to be falsified.  Likewise, the 26-page memo by Wesley Liebeler saying Adams’ testified that she encountered Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs also had to be false.

For all the above to make sense, we’re also to believe that DPD officer Marion Baker couldn’t tell the difference between African-American and Caucasian men.  A sorry comment about this case is that all of this seems possible, even if unlikely.

For me, though, the kicker is this:  Most of us agree that the Warren Commission wanted to make it appear that Ms. Adams descended the stairs later than she remembered, thus giving time to Oswald to climb down before she and Styles were on the stairs.  If the WC really added the Shelley/Lovelady sighting to Ms. Adams’ testimony, why did they say she saw them just a minute after the shooting?  Why not say 10 minutes later, as they wanted the world to believe?

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

If it is true that the Shelley/Lovelady sighting was added by the WC to David Belin’s questioning of Ms. Adams, then the questions asked during the testimony of Shelley and Lovelady just a couple of hours later by Joseph Ball also had to be altered.

 

Jim,

Please explain why it is that Lovelady's and Shelley's testimonies had to have been altered too?

When I read their testimonies, I get the impression that Lovelady and Shelley have been coached into adding minutes to how long they stayed on the TSBD steps (three or four minutes) and that afterward they entered the west door of the TSBD. It's obvious from Lovelady's reaction that he (and probably Shelley too) had been told that Vickie Adams "saw" them (wink, wink) there when she exited the stairwell. But it isn't clear that they were suppose to testify that they "saw" her. If they were instructed to say that, they didn't follow through with it. Well, Lovelady sort of did, when he volunteered that he wasn't sure the girl he saw was Vickie before Belin even mentioned Vickie's name.

BTW I have a feeling that what Vickie Adams' told Barry Ernest may not be quite what happened. My gut feeling is that she was being pressured into saying that she saw Lovelady and Shelley (when in fact she didn't), and that she caved into that pressure. And so Vickie lied and told the WC that she saw them. Therefore the WC didn't need to change her testimony. Then decades later when she talked to Gary Ernest, either she forgot that she had caved in, or she remembered but was ashamed of doing so. So she lied to Ernest, telling him that she didn't testify to seeing Lovelady and Shelley even though she had.

If I'm right about this, then those extensive alterations you pointed out aren't alterations after all.

 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Sandy Larsen

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 On a case this complex, I don’t believe you can base any conclusions on what just one person argues, no matter how well that argument is put together.

Here's another person;

Buell: (1:23:03) Well, after the first shot and then with the second and third, I walked down on the steps to where Billy was originally standing because, if my memory serves correctly, Billy and Mr. Shelley had gone down the street that ran right in front of the Depository there.

[Jim Hargrove]

46 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jim,

Please explain why it is that Lovelady's and Shelley's testimonies had to have been altered too?

Sandy,

What I said above was, “If it is true that the Shelley/Lovelady sighting was added by the WC to David Belin’s questioning of Ms. Adams, then the questions asked during the testimony of Shelley and Lovelady just a couple of hours later by Joseph Ball also had to be altered.”  For example:

Mr. BALL - Did you see Vickie Adams after you came into the building and did you see her on the first floor?
Mr. SHELLEY - I sure don't remember. 
Mr. BALL - You don't. 
Mr. SHELLEY – No.

If Adams’ sighting of Shelley and Lovelady was added later to her testimony, how is it that Joseph Ball asked about it to other witnesses on the very same day Adams testified?

And we’re not arguing about whether Shelley was on the first floor by the elevator, only about when, exactly.  After all, in his own handwriting on the day of the assassination, Shelley wrote: “I was on the first floor then & I stayed at the elevator & was told not to let anyone out of the elevator.” 

My guess is he admitted to that because he knew he had been seen, surely by Truly and Baker, and probably by Adams and Styles.  This all becomes more complicated when you consider that there is some evidence that Shelley and the whole TSBD (via the ultra-right owner D.H. Byrd) had intelligence connections.  William Weston has done some serious research on this in his The Fourth Decade articles and elsewhere. 

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

Here's another person;

Buell: (1:23:03) Well, after the first shot and then with the second and third, I walked down on the steps to where Billy was originally standing because, if my memory serves correctly, Billy and Mr. Shelley had gone down the street that ran right in front of the Depository there.

Frazier is not the greatest witness.  Here's what Shelley and Lovelady both wrote, ostensibly in their own handwriting, within hours of the assassination.  Nothing about walking toward the tracks or any of that stuff they came up with later.

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Here's what Shelley and Lovelady both wrote, ostensibly in their own handwriting, within hours of the assassination.  Nothing about walking toward the tracks or any of that stuff they came up with later.

What is written in the Shelley affidavit you have shown is this;

I ran across the street (which would be the Elm St extension) to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying (Gloria Calvery)

Shelley is running away from the TSBD as Baker is running towards the TSBD

[Jim Hargrove]

True enough, but it would take just seconds to run across Elm St. and then go back into the building, as Shelley said he did in his 11/22/63 statement.  Compare that to the amount of time he said he spent outside the building to the Warren Commission.  IF he did cross the street and see/hear Cavalry, Baker still had to finish driving to the front entrance, park his bike, and run inside.  This too took some time.  

[John Butler]

Jim,

Baker did not make it to the building in 15 seconds.

If the motorbike cop see in Couch-Darnell is Baker that sequence is 48 or more seconds after the shooting.

8 seconds for the shooting.  3 to 5 seconds for Wiegman to get to the intersection from Houston.  38 seconds into his film he shows Camera Car 3 turning into intersection.  Camera Car 3 has Couch and Darnell in it.  They film as the go past the TSBD.

 

 

 

[Tony Krome]

On 3/13/2019 at 1:15 PM, John Butler said:

Jim,

Baker did not make it to the building in 15 seconds.

If the motorbike cop see in Couch-Darnell is Baker that sequence is 48 or more seconds after the shooting.

8 seconds for the shooting.  3 to 5 seconds for Wiegman to get to the intersection from Houston.  38 seconds into his film he shows Camera Car 3 turning into intersection.  Camera Car 3 has Couch and Darnell in it.  They film as the go past the TSBD.

 

 

 

A. Wiegman's film from the start of actual filming to where it shows Camera Car 3 at Elm/Houston intersection is 29 to 30 seconds 

B. When Wiegman shows the Camera Car 3 at Elm/Houston intersection, Couch had already been filming for 8 to 9 seconds

A minus B = approx 20 seconds, then add possible missing footage at splice

Approx time after last shot to Motorcycle cop running = 25 seconds

 

Formula for "B" involves the timing of the motorcycle below shown weaving between Camera Car 1 & 2.

Couch film shows motorcycle below on the left side of Camera Car 3. (see bottom video)

Wiegman shows motorcycle below on the right side of Camera Car 1. (see photo further down:"Wiegman frame showing camera cars" )

From the start of Couch film to where motorcycle below is to the right side of Camera Car 1 = 8 to 9 seconds]

 

Camera Cars 2 & 3 actually stopped at Elm/Houston, see below;

Watch Couch film below to see motorcycle move from the left of Camera Car 3 to the right of Camera Car 1;

 

Edited March 14, 2019 by Tony Krome

[Jim Hargrove]

I can’t see that any of the above offers substantial evidence that Shelley and Lovelady could not have been the two white men allegedly seen by Baker at the back of the first floor of the TSBD, by the freight elevator and the electrical panels, within a minute or two of the shots.  Arguing about seconds here is not going to solve this issue.  

If Baker saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor so soon after the assassination, there is no reason he would have known who they were.  But Truly certainly would have known, and we have to wonder why the WC pointedly didn’t ask him to identify them.  And if Truly didn’t vouch for these two white men, we have to wonder why Baker didn’t challenge them, as he allegedly did “Oswald” just moments later.  If these two white men, unchallenged by Baker and therefore probably TSBD employees, were not Shelley and Lovelady, who could they have been?

The really substantial evidence against the theory of this thread is Barry Ernest’s “The Girl on the Stairs,” which argues that, by my count, a half dozen or more reports and transcripts were falsified in order to insert into the record the Shelley and Lovelady sightings by Vickie Adams (and, indirectly, Sandra Styles).  There aren’t many cases in which such a scenario would be plausible, but, tragically, this is clearly one of them.

Again, I would suggest that the apparent correction decades after the fact is enormously complicated by research, by William Weston and others, indicating Bill Shelley and the whole TSBD operation may have had substantial intelligence connections.  There are a number of threads about this on this forum.  Here’s one, started by Mr. Weston in 2006:

 

[John Butler]

10 hours ago, John Butler said:

Jim,

Baker did not make it to the building in 15 seconds.

If the motorbike cop see in Couch-Darnell is Baker that sequence is 48 or more seconds after the shooting.

8 seconds for the shooting.  3 to 5 seconds for Wiegman to get to the intersection from Houston.  38 seconds into his film he shows Camera Car 3 turning into intersection.  Camera Car 3 has Couch and Darnell in it.  They film as the go past the TSBD.

 

 

 

I've been through this argument on several occasions and simply don't want to repeat myself. 

25 seconds is on the opening of one of the copies of the Couch-D film (includes Darnell because lots of folks say so).  A fair estimate by a fellow forum member is 30 seconds.  I can cut my estimate down closer to 30 seconds. 

Although, I prefer the longer estimate based on a 38 second frame in Weigman showing Camera Car #3 still turning.  The first 3 seconds of the Couch-D film are filmed at angle showing the vehicle is still turning.

Jim Hargroves is right on a few seconds timing.

The question to ask (even though this is off topic) is why didn't they film when they were on Houston Street waiting to make the turn?  Another might be where is the film from Camera Car 1 & 2?

The opening 3 seconds of Couch-D has a policeman running for the Grassy Knoll.  That might be one of the Smiths but, probably not Barnett.  He supposedly went the other way.  Who is directing traffic at this time?

 

Edited March 13, 2019 by John Butler

[Sandy Larsen]

On 3/12/2019 at 7:39 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

On 3/12/2019 at 6:50 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Jim,

Please explain why it is that Lovelady's and Shelley's testimonies had to have been altered too?

Sandy,

What I said above was, “If it is true that the Shelley/Lovelady sighting was added by the WC to David Belin’s questioning of Ms. Adams, then the questions asked during the testimony of Shelley and Lovelady just a couple of hours later by Joseph Ball also had to be altered.”  For example:

Mr. BALL - Did you see Vickie Adams after you came into the building and did you see her on the first floor?
Mr. SHELLEY - I sure don't remember. 
Mr. BALL - You don't. 
Mr. SHELLEY – No.

If Adams’ sighting of Shelley and Lovelady was added later to her testimony, how is it that Joseph Ball asked about it to other witnesses on the very same day Adams testified?

 

Jim,

It seems to me that lawyers taking testimony would prepare their questions in advance. Not just minutes in advance, but many hours or days in advance. And that they would form their questions based on what they had learned from witness statements and FBI reports.

If I am right about this -- and I'm pretty sure I am -- this means that when Mr. Ball read in advance (from statements and/or reports)  that Vickie Adams had seen Shelley and Lovelady as she exited the stairwell, he naturally would have been prepared to ask Vickie about the incident. In addition, it makes sense that he would likewise ask Shelley and Lovelady if they had seen Vickie.

That's the reason I am not surprised that Mr. Ball would ask that question of Shelley and Lovelady even if Vickie had denied seeing them. It would be due to his having prepared his questions in advance.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 3/12/2019 at 9:31 AM, Tony Krome said:

What is written in the Shelley affidavit you have shown is this;

I ran across the street (which would be the Elm St extension) to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying (Gloria Calvery)

Shelley is running away from the TSBD as Baker is running towards the TSBD

 

Actually, by the time Baker is seen running across Elm Street Extension, Shelley had already crossed it (in the opposite direction, of course), bumped into Gloria Calvery at the concrete island ("corner of the park"), and returned to the TSBD steps. We know this because by that time Gloria Calvery can be seen in Darnell on the steps. Talking to Lovelady.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jim,

It seems to me that lawyers taking testimony would prepare their questions in advance. Not just minutes in advance, but many hours or days in advance. And that they would form their questions based on what they had learned from witness statements and FBI reports.

If I am right about this -- and I'm pretty sure I am -- this means that when Mr. Ball read in advance (from statements and/or reports)  that Vickie Adams had seen Shelley and Lovelady as she exited the stairwell, he naturally would have been prepared to ask Vickie about the incident. In addition, it makes sense that he would likewise ask Shelley and Lovelady if they had seen Vickie.

That's the reason I am not surprised that Mr. Ball would ask that question of Shelley and Lovelady even if Vickie had denied seeing them. It would be due to his having prepared his questions in advance.

Sandy,

I thought you believed that the WC added the Shelley/Lovelady sighting to Vickie Adams’ testimony in an attempt to push the encounter later and give “Oswald” time to descend the back staircase from the 6th floor?  Have I read that incorrectly?

If you DO think Adams talked about Shelley/Lovelady on the first floor before the two men testified, it would certainly make sense to ask those two men about it.  But if you planned to put false words into Ms. Adams’ mouth, why would you ask the two subjects to confirm the falsehood unless you had a secret handshake agreement with them to lie, which apparently the WC didn’t have.  (I do think, though, that EVERYONE was content to see all the additional time both Shelley and Lovelady inserted into their outdoor adventures before re-entering the TSBD.)

What makes this all a bit difficult is we don’t have at hand our usual source for 100 percent disinformation whenever it was needed to cover up anything smacking of conspiracy.  The FBI appears to be only peripherally involved in this issue.  Without them, who can we trust for 100 percent bs?