Jim Hargrove Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said: If one buys the WC, then this is a serious problem. How on earth can anyone explain Oswald leaving the scene by a public bus, getting off and walking back to the scene of the crime, hailing a cab, offering it to a little old lady, then getting in and then taking the cab five blocks away from your rooming house? Because “Oswald” was instructed to get on the bus, as the Stuart Reed photos virtually prove. The rest he improvised when the bus got stuck in traffic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 7 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said: Because “Oswald” was instructed to get on the bus, as the Stuart Reed photos virtually prove. The rest he improvised when the bus got stuck in traffic. Sorry Jim... That photo proves nothing directly.... a photo of a bus which we do not even know is McWatter's... If Oswald MUST BE ON THAT BUS.... why let McWatters recant in the name of MILTON JONES.... No Jim, BLEDSOE screws it up by her "After the changing of clothes" description of the shirt when he had not yet changed them.... Speculation is good and all... but nothing concrete puts Oswald on that bus... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 David, Fritz's notes are concrete, and they say "Oswald" himself said he took the bus, and later said he also took the taxi. Transfer #004459 is concrete, and it came from McWatters' transfer book. Do you think the DPD invented it in just a couple of hours? Do you really believe that the U.S. Army employee who photographed the TSBD, the infamous shoe store, "Oswald's" arrest in front of the theater, just happened to take two photos of a random bus? Really? This is just the tip of the iceberg. Shall we go over more concrete evidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said: Fritz's notes are concrete, and they say "Oswald" himself said he took the bus, and later said he also took the taxi. Ok, FRITZ's NOTES are CONCRETE... Since everyone says OSWALD said he went home and changed his pants and shirt... how does BLEDSOE ID the arrest shirt instead? Mr. BALL - Now, what color shirt did he have on? Mrs. BLEDSOE - He had a brown shirt. Mr. BALL - And unraveled? Mrs. BLEDSOE - Hole in his sleeve right here [indicating]. Mr. BALL - Which is the elbow of the sleeve? That is, you pointed to the elbow? Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, it is. Mr. BALL - And that would be which elbow, right or left elbow? Mrs. BLEDSOE - Right. Mr. BALL - Did he have anything on. Was the shirt open or was it buttoned? Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes; all the buttons torn off. Mr. BALL - What did he have on underneath that? Mrs. BLEDSOE - I don't know. Mr. BALL - Do you know the color of any undershirt he had on? Mrs. BLEDSOE - No. and the BUS DRIVER says it was not him.... it also says here that he IDENTIFIED the #2 man in the lineup. Mr. BALL - You didn't--as I understand it, when you were at the police lineup, you told us that you didn't--weren't able to identify this man in the lineup as the man who got off, that you gave the transfer to. Mr. McWATTERS - I told them to the best of my knowledge, I said the man that I picked out was the same height, about the same height, weight and description. But as far as actually saying that is the man I couldn't-- Mr. BALL - You couldn't do it? Mr. McWATTERS - I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't do it now. You going to believe the 2nd hand after the fact notes of those incriminating OSWALD, or the driver himself? You don't suppose he was slightly intimidated the first time around when asked about OSWALD? So much so he contacts the Commission himself to recant... A guilty conscience has Amazing power, no? Mr. BALL - Anyway, you were not able to identify any man in the lineup as the passenger? Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir. Mr. BALL - As the passenger who had gotten on? Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir. Mr. BALL - You said there was one man who closely resembled in height, weight and color? Mr. McWATTERS - That is right. Mr. BALL - Do you know who that was? Mr. McWATTERS - Just like I told them, I didn't know who was who or anything. Mr. BALL - Did you ever learn who that person was? Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I don't know whether that was really the man or not, I don't know. Mr. BALL - I see. Hosty, Bookout, Kelley all wrote reports related to those interviews Jim... not just Fritz. Each of them recalls him saying he took the bus - but with different details... "OSWALD stated he then went home by bus and changed his clothes and went to a movie" - Hosty & Bookout "OSWALD stated it was not true that he took a bus....." - Bookout alone "OSWALD said...., he went by bus to the theater where he was arrested" "Fritz asked him if he had ridden in a taxi that day and Oswald changed his story.... the first time he had EVER ridden in a cab" - Insp KELLEY USSS 1st time ever - pretty amazing right Jim... So many FIRST TIME things incriminate our man Ozzie, no? And sure... you wanna play with the transfer evidence and how they got it from McWatters... we can, but first deal with the above... thanks DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said: Do you think the DPD invented it in just a couple of hours? If Roy Jones is truthful, why couldn't the DPD cops take "a" transfer at that point? And why don't you address any of my questions? HOW IS A TRANSFER IN A SHIRT WHICH HE CHANGED? HOW CAN HE STILL HAVE THE TRANSFER, IF IT WAS USED AT SOME POINT....? HOW MANY SEARCHES - ALONE IN FRITZ'S OFFICE - DOES IT TAKE TO FIND EVEN MORE INCRIMINATING EVIDENCE? In the entire evidence from Cecil McWatters, he NEVER MENTIONS 2 POLICEMAN coming onto the bus and holding it up for an hour.... CE2641 is the FBI report stating McWatters recants and names ROY MILTON JONES as who he was speaking of... CE2641 - JONES makes the claim that 2 policemen board and search everyone on the bus.... then they cross the Marsalis Bridge... This bridge is at the southern end of Dealey Plaza after the bus travels all the way south on HOUSTON.... 1 - WHERE was the bus when the police supposedly came aboard? 2 - Why doesn't McWatters mention such a time consuming and once-in-a-lifetime event? https://www.google.com/maps/place/Marsalis+Jefferson,+Dallas,+TX+75203/@32.7735209,-96.815391,14.75z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x864e990b478be349:0x1dd15fe134c00261!8m2!3d32.7628907!4d-96.8128116?hl=en Mr. BALL - Well, now, at that time, when you saw the lineup-- Mr. McWATTERS - Yes. Mr. BALL - Were you under the impression that this man that you saw in the lineup and whom you pointed out to the police, was the teenage boy who had been grinning? Mr. McWATTERS - I was, yes, sir; I was under the impression-- Mr. BALL - That was the fellow? Mr. McWATTERS - That was the fellow. Mr. BALL - You were not under the impression then that night when you saw the lineup that the No. 2 man in the lineup was the man who got off the bus, to whom you had given a transfer? Mr. McWATTERS - That is what I say. In other words, when I told them, I said, the only way is the man, that he is smaller, in other words, he kind of had a thin like face and he weighs less than any one of them. The only one I could identify at all would be the smaller man on account he was the only one who could come near fitting the description. If FRITZ's notes are the CONCRETE you claim... the shirt he wore riding on the bus was TAKEN OFF... if the transfer was in that shirt pocket when he left the bus... How does it get into the ARREST shirt? ----- Moving on to the numerous searches performed by the DPD which all miss the 5 live rounds and the bus transfer.... after his arrest we are told BENTLEY takes his wallet... yet misses every other thing on him... 5 live rounds and a bus transfer - excellent police work! He is at the DPD from 2pm, and in Fritz's office until just after 4pm.... Mr. BALL. He hadn't been searched up to that time, had he?Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he had been searched.Mr. BALL. Wasn't he searched later in the jail office?Mr. FRITZ. He was searched, the officers who arrested him made the first search, I am sure. “I am sure”, says the Captain; yet if Hill didn’t search him, and Bentley pulls a wallet from his pants, and Walker is in the car as well, who performed the search which left 5 live shells in an accused murderer’s pocket? Mr. BALL. Did anybody keep notes? Mr. BOYD. I saw the FBI man writing--they had a little book--across the table over there. Mr. BALL. Did you have any microphones in there to record the conversation? Mr. BOYD. No, sir. Mr. BALL. Do you as a practice record the interrogations of your prisoners? Mr. BOYD. No, sir; we don't. Mr. BALL. How long did this take how long was he questioned at this time? Mr. BOYD. Let me see---we took him down to the first showup right after 4 o'clock, I think I have the exact time here 4:05 is when we left. Mr. BALL. Was he in Captain Fritz' office from the time you took him in there what time was that? Mr. BOYD. At 2:15---2:20. Mr. BALL. From 2:20 until 4 o'clock? Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. Before you went into the showup, did you search Oswald? Mr. BOYD. Yes; I did. Mr. BALL. And what did you find? Mr. BOYD. I found five .38 shells, I believe it was five. Mr. BALL. Live? Live shells? Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. But no BUS TRANSFER? BOYD does not say a word about that... cause SIMS was searching him at the same time ALSO IN FRITZ's office with no record or witnesses to contradict anything. Mr. BALL. Who was present besides you? Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say--I know Boyd was and I was present, but I don't know if he was in there all the time or not. Mr. BALL. Now, during this time, or sometime during this period--sometime between these three showups, you searched Oswald, didn't you? Mr. SIMS. The first one; yes, sir. Mr. BALL. And that was what time? Mr. SIMS. It was 4:05, I believe, but I will have to check my record here and see [checking his record referred to]. Mr. BALL. That was after the second showup? Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the first one. Mr. BALL. After the first showup? Mr. SIMS. It was before the first showup. Mr. BALL. It was before the first showup--the 4:05? Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. And that was after the first interrogation? Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. And where were you when you first searched him? Mr. SIMS. We was in the holdover, in other words, the showup room. Mr. BALL. When you took Oswald down for the first showup and waited in the room outside, the showup room, you searched him? Mr. SIMS. Yes; Boyd and I. Mr. BALL What did you find? Mr. SIMS. I found a bus transfer slip in his shirt pocket. Mr. BALL. And what else? Mr. SIMS. Well, Boyd found some .38 cartridges in his pocket. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 If we are to believe SIMS - the 5 bullets and transfer were missed at the theater, in the car to the DPD, and before he goes into Fritz's office around 2pm. When LEAVING Fritz's office for a line-up SIMS finally searches the prisoner (again according to Fritz) with BOYD and FRITZ in the room... this is when they claim to find the bullets and transfer.... And that TRANSFER which was so important... along with the 5 bullets - that these crack detectives with a safe-like memory offers us this.... pu-leeeze Mr. BALL. What did you do with the transfer? Mr. SIMS. I went back up to the office and I believe initialed it and placed it in an envelope for identification. Mr. BALL. Who did you turn it over to? Mr. SIMS. I don't remember. Mr. BALL. You don't remember? Mr. SIMS. No, sir; it was either in the lieutenant's desk or Captain Fritz' desk. Mr. BALL. Lieutenant who? Mr. SIMS. We have two in there---Lieutenant Wells and Lieutenant Bohart. Mr. BALL. And what about the five rounds of live ammunition, what did you do with those? Mr. SIMS. It was also placed in the envelope. Mr. BALL. And turned over to whom--Fritz? Mr. SIMS. I don't know who that was turned over to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 David, I think "Oswald" probably held onto the transfer because he was told to, just as he was instructed to board the bus. Do you know how many people had to conspire to come up with a false bus and taxi ride? As John A. wrote on our website: To these naysayers, I would ask them to simply identify the person or persons who came up with the idea to fabricate a story in which the bus and taxi rider never happened. I would ask them to name the person or persons who had the knowledge, presence, and ability to fabricate such a hoax within hours of Oswald's arrest. I would remind naysayers that Oswald himself said during his first and second interrogations that he rode a bus, long before the police knew about Cecil McWatters. And Oswald made these statements in the presence of Capt. Fritz, James Hosty, Thomas Kelley, James Bookhout, and numerous officers. These people took notes, made reports, and/or gave WC testimony about statements made by Oswald. These naysayers would have us believe that a person or persons unknown convinced all of these people (SS agents Kelley, Nully and Forrest: FBI agents Hosty, Grant, Odum and Bookout; US Marshall Nash; Capt Fritz, DPD officers Sims, Boyd, Turner, Hall, Dhority, Owens, Leavelle, and Senkel, taxi driver Whaley, bus driver McWatters, bus passengers Bledsoe and Jones, bus and taxi officials) to lie and go along with a fabricated story that the bus and taxi ride never happened. But no matter how much evidence researchers produce to prove that Oswald rode on a bus and in a taxi on 11/22/63, we can be sure that irresponsible naysayers can and will find the most trivial, superficial, and inconsequential reasons to continue their criticism. Rather than nit-pick the statements and memories of witnesses who saw “Lee Harvey Oswald” riding in either the station wagon, bus, or taxi, naysayers should study the overwhelming amount of evidence that shows there were two “Lee Harvey Oswalds” who looked very similar. At 12:40 PM LEE Oswald got into a Nash Rambler station wagon in front of the TSBD, while HARVEY Oswald was getting into McWatters' city bus at Elm and Griffin. An hour and a half later HARVEY Oswald was arrested, handcuffed, and sitting in a room at Dallas Police headquarters. When Capt Fritz pointed to Roger Craig and said to Oswald, “This man saw you leave....what about the car?” Oswald replied, “that station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine.....” HARVEY Oswald dared not say any more, but his statement about Mrs. Paine and a station wagon shows that he knew a lot more than what he told his interrogators . George Lardner, of the Washington Post, reported that “[CIA Director] Richard Helms told reporters that no one would ever know who or what Lee Harvey Oswald...represented.” In 1977 Helms became the only CIA director to be convicted of misleading Congress. From Harvey and Lee Depart the TSBD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 21 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said: Do you know how many people had to conspire to come up with a false bus and taxi ride? no Jim... how many? How many were involved in creating the "Legend of LHO" as the guilty killer of Tippit and Kennedy? Asking open-ended rhetorical questions based on speculation and supposition is no way to "solve" anything. And you of all people should be fully aware of what the FBI, CIA, ONI, USPS, I&NS, ATF, Mil Intel... and on and on and on.. did to incriminate Oswald and the exclusion of all other possibilities. More importantly Jim... who would know - except those who wouldn't, couldn't or can no longer say anything? Bledsoe lied her buns off about Ozzie on the bus... Whaley tries to convince us that Beckley and Neches intersect while dropping the "fare" only blocks from Tippit's demise. McWatters recants and JONES describes a completely different person... McWatters does not say 1 word about policemen boarding his bus... EVER A DPD officer - Roger Craig - actually sees Oswald leave via a car looking much like Ruth's... Hey Jim, ya think that maybe the bus and taxi BS was created to negate one of Dallas' finest's recollection, brought up in front of Oswald and commented upon? Or do you think Craig was lying.... too? John and I agree on many, many things... we disagree and discuss even more... be nice if you'd try using your own analysis/deductive reasoning supported by some evidence and rely a bit less on the stated conclusions of our friend. He is right on many, many subjects.... I happen to disagree with this one in particular. Hope you're doing well.... DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 (edited) 31 minutes ago, David Josephs said: Hey Jim, ya think that maybe the bus and taxi BS was created to negate one of Dallas' finest's recollection, brought up in front of Oswald and commented upon? Or do you think Craig was lying.... too? No, there’s a much simpler explanation requiring far fewer lies. Two guys who looked similar shared the identity of “Lee Harvey Oswald,” the remnants of a spy game. Both were involved in the events around Dealey Plaza on 11-22-63. One framed the other for the assassination of JFK (including providing an LHO/Hidell wallet to Westbrook). One left Dealey Plaza in a Nash Rambler, the other on a bus and taxi. Simple. Edited July 18, 2019 by Jim Hargrove Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Bacon Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 13 hours ago, David Josephs said: Hey Jim, ya think that maybe the bus and taxi BS was created to negate one of Dallas' finest's recollection, brought up in front of Oswald and commented upon? Or do you think Craig was lying.... too? David, are you speculating that it was Classic Oswald who got into the Nash Rambler that Roger Craig witnessed? What might have happened after that? Do you think he was driven to his rooming house? ...and to the theatre? Speculation: Is it even remotely possible that the bus and taxi ride did happen, but the rider was LEE Oswald... that John A got it right, but the roles were reversed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 3 hours ago, Paul Bacon said: David, are you speculating that it was Classic Oswald who got into the Nash Rambler that Roger Craig witnessed? What might have happened after that? Do you think he was driven to his rooming house? ...and to the theatre? Speculation: Is it even remotely possible that the bus and taxi ride did happen, but the rider was LEE Oswald... that John A got it right, but the roles were reversed? I truly cannot say for sure one way or the other Paul. If it was HARVEY, which I conclude, he was driven to a spot close to his room, possibly even the bus stop on N. Beckley. How would the police car which honks KNOW that Oswald had arrived? Ironic that WESTBROOK would be the source for car #207's location - but only kind of.... there is nothing which precludes WESTBROOK/CROY from taking #207 and being in the Oak Cliff area. IMO, The "Honk-honk" is his ride to the theater.... if we can believe Ms. Roberts the car which honked was a black police car. WESTBROOK writes a report claiming that car #207 (per Roberts) was at Elm/Houston unattended by its operator JM Valentine. I think it very possible that WESTBROOK/CROY are in this car and are the men who drive by Beckley to take Ozzie to the theater and bring themselves closer to the Tippit murder scene. But this is only speculative based on where people were. If you read WESTBROOK's testimony it is filled with mysterious PATROLMEN who drive he and others around - when as the man in charge of DPD Personnel, he SHOULD have contacted Mrs. Tippit and dealt with THAT situation... not run all over G~d's green earth doing detective work. I believe this is CROY at 10th/Patton - please correct if I'm mistaken. The problem for me is our basic assumption derived from the evidence.... McWatters recants, Jones describes a diff person, and Bledsoe is fed clothing details. McWatters never mentions the 2 cops (if one of them took a transfer or two it might have made him a bit scared to mention it... do we know if ANYONE corroborates Roy's Policemen boarding the bus story as there were 15 people on the bus according to ROY... why do we not have a statement or report from the 2 cops who boarded the bus or from any one of the other passengers? As for WHALEY... it's hard to accept there was no fare and ride at all... yet 500 N. Beckley is where the El Chico Restaurant was and where TS White sees an Ozzie-like person at the wheel of a car.... the 1961 Red Ford Falcon with plates belonging to Carl MATHER of COLLINS RADIO - and close friend to one JD TIPPIT. I am of the opinion that Whaley drops off either LEE or one of a few lookalikes including Vaganov... **** NOTE & QUESTION ***** If Stuart Reed was so aware of the goings on to have taken critical photos, including the bus EXTERIOR... why not wait a few minutes and take a photo of Ozzie leaving the bus and catch him red handed ....? ****************************** As for the Speculation of JA... I believe he is close to how confusion was sowed in Dealey and Oak Cliff using LEE and/or other look-alikes. I disagree with the McWatters bus conclusions for reasons stated. We should also remember that citizens in the early 60's did what they were told, believed what they were told by authority especially the FBI... So while others feel it too far-fetched that so many would go along... I see them thinking with 2019 sight rather than with 1963 vision.... DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Bacon Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 2 hours ago, David Josephs said: The problem for me is our basic assumption derived from the evidence.... McWatters recants, Jones describes a diff person, and Bledsoe is fed clothing details. McWatters never mentions the 2 cops (if one of them took a transfer or two it might have made him a bit scared to mention it... do we know if ANYONE corroborates Roy's Policemen boarding the bus story as there were 15 people on the bus according to ROY... why do we not have a statement or report from the 2 cops who boarded the bus or from any one of the other passengers? So your thought is the bus and taxi rides may have been concocted to refute what Roger Craig had seen? Oswald's reaction regarding "Mrs. Paine's car, etc." is what made me think maybe it was Harvey Oswald, after all, that got into that Rambler. And, of course, that threatened the conspiracy because of the implications --Oswald had help, who was driving, looks pre-planned, etc. But I have been wedded to the bus and taxi events for so long, it's hard to imagine that it didn't happen --for the reasons that Jim and John A point out. And Whaley has seemed very credible, but perhaps succumbed to authority to an extent. But I wonder if it was an Oswald look-alike (as you say), that took the bus and taxi. How much of an issue was it that the conspiracy needed to explain how Oswald left the TSBD and, therefore, pre-planned the bus and taxi rides? Then there's Tippet waiting at the Gloco station along that bus' route... so much to consider! But, I'm lost in a sea of evidence. Who's credible, who's not, what was planned to have happened, what was improvised...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 53 minutes ago, Paul Bacon said: But I have been wedded to the bus and taxi events for so long, it's hard to imagine that it didn't happen Kinda like the lunchroom encounter... or Baker even going up the front steps.... it's become part of the LEGEND with little regard for the facts. 55 minutes ago, Paul Bacon said: But, I'm lost in a sea of evidence. Who's credible, who's not, what was planned to have happened, what was improvised...? LOL... aren't we all? I for one don't accept the evidence which places Oswald on that bus, compared to the sight and memory of a Dallas Detective, especially one so harshly treated in the years after. While I do think much of this treatment came from his insistence and mentioning of the RAMBLER, it could also have come as a result of giving away Harry Weatherford's position on the County Records Building with a rifle. If Oswald gets into a Rambler driven by someone else the entire LONE NUT backup story crumbles. And didn't DECKER claim to say he told his men NOT TO LIFT A FINGER TO HELP? What WAS Harry doing up there? Despite all the evidence which attempts to prove CRAIG wrong - and that OZZIE took the bus, when finally questioned on April Fool's Day 1964 he sticks to his convictions. Mr. BELIN - Do you feel, in your own mind, that the man you saw at Captain Fritz's office was the same man that you saw running towards the station wagon?Mr. CRAIG - Yes, I feel like it was.Mr. BELIN - Do you feel that you might have been influenced by the fact that you knew he was the suspect---subconsciously, or do you----Mr. CRAIG - Well, it's---it's possible, but I still feel strongly that it was the same person.Mr. BELIN - Okay. That's it. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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