The Motorcade Puzzle

[John Butler]

Chris,

I'm not in disagreement with the placement of the vehicles in the animation frame above.

The bottom quote from Couch refers to the turn from Main onto Houston.  They were on Houston when they heard the shots.  This was Camera Car #1.  Correctly shown.  

The problem with Mark's work is that it doesn't show the Mayor's Car stopping there as indicated in that frame of the animation or Camera Car #1.  He has it stopping well down Elm and not in the intersection.  They breeze through the intersection in contradiction of witness testimony and stop on Elm Street down from the intersection.  Dearie says the motorcade came to a stop.  She was referring to the stop from the position shown in the frame above. 

The stop was not brief or a rolling stop.  It lasted for the length of the shots and perhaps a little more.  They were released and then a short time later the rest of the motorcade was released.  This could have been 25 or 30 seconds later as documented by Weigman at the end of his film and the Couch film.

The people doing the releasing were probably Welcome Barrett and J. M. Smith.  Neither say this in any testimony I can find.  It is interesting that Mark has the Pilot Car, Chief George Lumpkin, stopping in the intersection and briefly reacting with Welcome Barrett.  Was it at this point that Barrett got his instructions to stop the motorcade at the point where the Cameral Cars would be kept stalled on Houston during the shooting?  If so, this enhances the idea that the DPD was heavily involved in the assassination.

Another problem I find with Mark's work is that he takes the Plaza films and witnesses at face value or close enought to be the same.  He ignores witnesses who have something different to say.  If you do that then you are re-telling the official story and not what happened in Dealey Plaza.

He does mention problems in his handbook and I have not analyzed whether they make into the animation.

Edited August 19, 2021 by John Butler

[Chris Davidson]

3 hours ago, John Butler said:

The bottom quote from Couch refers to the turn from Main onto Houston.  They were on Houston when they heard the shots.  This was Camera Car #1.  Correctly shown. 

Couch was in Camera Car#3

The problem with Mark's work is that it doesn't show the Mayor's Car stopping there as indicated in that frame of the animation or Camera Car #1.  He has it stopping well down Elm and not in the intersection.  They breeze through the intersection in contradiction of witness testimony and stop on Elm Street down from the intersection.  Dearie says the motorcade came to a stop.  She was referring to the stop from the position shown in the frame above. 

That's because you have applied the motorcade stop to Dearie's description of the first shot she heard.  According to her testimony, the motorcade didn't stop until after the last shots. See her testimony below. 

The stop was not brief or a rolling stop.  It lasted for the length of the shots and perhaps a little more.  They were released and then a short time later the rest of the motorcade was released.  This could have been 25 or 30 seconds later as documented by Weigman at the end of his film and the Couch film.

The motorcade stop at least in CameraCar#3's case was somewhere between 20-25 seconds. imo

The people doing the releasing were probably Welcome Barrett and J. M. Smith.  Neither say this in any testimony I can find.  It is interesting that Mark has the Pilot Car, Chief George Lumpkin, stopping in the intersection and briefly reacting with Welcome Barrett.  Was it at this point that Barrett got his instructions to stop the motorcade at the point where the Cameral Cars would be kept stalled on Houston during the shooting?  If so, this enhances the idea that the DPD was heavily involved in the assassination.

Another problem I find with Mark's work is that he takes the Plaza films and witnesses at face value or close enought to be the same.  He ignores witnesses who have something different to say.  If you do that then you are re-telling the official story and not what happened in Dealey Plaza.

In terms of his animation, a few slight tweaks are necessary to reveal the truer picture. But overall, he has done a nice job for the volume of work involved.

He does mention problems in his handbook and I have not analyzed whether they make into the animation.

Mrs. CABELL. If I did, I don't recall. I am completely aware of the people running up that hill. I saw the man throw the child on the ground and throw himself. I saw a woman in a bright green dress throw herself on the ground. I saw the policeman running up the grassy slope.
Mr. HUBERT. You also mentioned that you were acutely aware of the smell of gunpowder?
Mrs. CABELL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that relative to the shots? I mean how soon after?
Mrs. CABELL. I cannot say for sure, because as I told you, the motorcade was stopped. And somewhere in there, Congressman Roberts said, "That is a .30-06." I didn't know what a .30-06 was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that after all the shots were fired?
Mrs. CABELL. I believe so. There was much confusion.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was about that time that you observed the odor?
Mrs CABELL. Of gunpowder.
Mr. HUBERT. That was when your car at least had come to a standstill?
Mrs. CABELL. Every car in the motorcade had come to a standstill.

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by Chris Davidson

[Chris Davidson]

Bob Jackson was also in CameraCar#3:

[Mark Tyler]

On 8/18/2021 at 1:38 AM, Chris Davidson said:

Matches quite well with what Mrs.Cabell states below. imo

Mrs. CABELL. If I did, I don't recall. I am completely aware of the people running up that hill. I saw the man throw the child on the ground and throw himself. I saw a woman in a bright green dress throw herself on the ground. I saw the policeman running up the grassy slope.
Mr. HUBERT. You also mentioned that you were acutely aware of the smell of gunpowder?
Mrs. CABELL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that relative to the shots? I mean how soon after?
Mrs. CABELL. I cannot say for sure, because as I told you, the motorcade was stopped. And somewhere in there, Congressman Roberts said, "That is a .30-06." I didn't know what a .30-06 was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that after all the shots were fired?
Mrs. CABELL. I believe so. There was much confusion.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was about that time that you observed the odor?
Mrs. CABELL. Of gunpowder.
Mr. HUBERT. That was when your car at least had come to a standstill?
Mrs. CABELL. Every car in the motorcade had come to a standstill.

 

 

Indeed, Cabell's statement matches the animation rather nicely at roughly the time the car stops (Z420-Z450).  She mentions seeing the child being thrown to the ground which must have been the Newman family (whose turn is briefly in the Nix film after Z313), and the green dress lady is probably Beatrice Hester.  At Z420-Z450 Cabell has a perfect view of both events unfolding:

If she was back at the intersection she would have struggled to see all this as her view would have been distracted by the crowd nearby.  Here are some Wiegman composites showing the scene including Mr Newman pushing his child to the ground, and the dispersing crowd so Cabell could see Hester falling near the pergola when the car had just stopped:

[Mark Tyler]

On 8/18/2021 at 4:28 AM, John Butler said:

I'll repeat Dearie Cabell's testimony again.

Sure, which merely demonstrates that she was at the interesection when the first shot was fired which I agree with.  She never claimed the car stopped at that point though, and the claim of the Mayor's car stopping at that point is your own interpretation.  No witness mentions it, and no film or photo shows it.  In fact, the Wiegman film directly refutes it as the car is cruising through the intersection at 8-10 MPH just a few seconds after the first shot:

 

On 8/18/2021 at 4:28 AM, John Butler said:

The car was stopped by the patrolmen at the scene in the intersection.

Which film, photo, or witness suggests that the car was stopped by the police at the intersection?

[Mark Tyler]

19 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

John,

The Cabell/Couch descriptions of their first shot reaction locations are placed fairly accurately by Mark, if you use the extant z207 splice and Robert West plotting of a shot at approx the same z207 location. imo

Couch's description is 15-20ft after the turn onto Houston St.

 

The timing of the first shot does seem clear thanks to the witnesses, especially those with cameras.  Hugh Betzner said he heard the first shot just after he took his photo at Z186.  The Zapruder film start shaking and blurring around Z190-Z210.  Phil Willis said he heard the shot just before he took his photo at Z202.  The other witnesses standing nearby at the intersection, or in the motorcade seem to agree with the timing with no witness unambiguously claiming an earlier shot.

[Mark Tyler]

4 hours ago, John Butler said:

Another problem I find with Mark's work is that he takes the Plaza films and witnesses at face value or close enought to be the same.  He ignores witnesses who have something different to say.

Yes indeed, I take all evidence at face value until it can be proven wrong, and in the meantime I simply point out any conflicts, discrepancies, or ambiguities I have found.  I have published a complete list of over 400 witnesses with analysis, and referenced every film and photo in the public domain, so it's not fair to say I have ignored anything.

4 hours ago, John Butler said:

If you do that then you are re-telling the official story and not what happened in Dealey Plaza.

I have been saying for over two years that the current "lone nut theory" with a missed shot at Z160 or before belongs in the garbage can, so to suggest I support the official story is wrong.  I don't rule out a three shot scenario involving Lee Harvey Oswald, but the missed shot must have been fired well after the head shot as many witnesses reported this back in 1963.  I'm also happy to consider other evidence based theories about the crime scene, so for example I think it's quite possible that two shots were fired in rapid succession during the shooting (thus requiring a second gunman).

I accept that by disagreeing with 99% of theories on both sides of the debate I will never be popular, but as I've always said, I do my work without fear or favour (including me correcting my own mistakes when people present evidence or analysis, such as in this very thread).

[Chris Davidson]

56 minutes ago, Chris Davidson said:

Bob Jackson was also in CameraCar#3:

In addition to the graphic above, using the same fame as the stopping point for CameraCar#3 while referring back to the National Press Pool Car (which appears in the Couch film shot from CameraCar#3)as it hits the underpass shadow, the motorcade stop is approx 20.7 seconds using CameraCar#3 as the marker in the gif below 

I pointed this out to Mark and he duly implemented it, in the animation, some time ago.

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25932-the-motorcade-puzzle/?do=findComment&comment=408758

 

[John Butler]

10 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

The bottom quote from Couch refers to the turn from Main onto Houston.  They were on Houston when they heard the shots.  This was Camera Car #1.  Correctly shown. 

Couch was in Camera Car#3

Thanks Chris,

Right.  I messed that one.  Probably thinking about Weigman in Camera Car #1.  But, the placement of Camera Car #3 is correct as shown in that frame.  

My interpretation differs.  From what she said here you can't tell where and when she topped.  The key and the most important thing to me is she was stopped directly facing the TSBD and not beside it.  She clearly says this.

10 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Mrs. CABELL. If I did, I don't recall. I am completely aware of the people running up that hill. I saw the man throw the child on the ground and throw himself. I saw a woman in a bright green dress throw herself on the ground. I saw the policeman running up the grassy slope.
Mr. HUBERT. You also mentioned that you were acutely aware of the smell of gunpowder?
Mrs. CABELL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that relative to the shots? I mean how soon after?
Mrs. CABELL. I cannot say for sure, because as I told you, the motorcade was stopped. And somewhere in there, Congressman Roberts said, "That is a .30-06." I didn't know what a .30-06 was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that after all the shots were fired?
Mrs. CABELL. I believe so. There was much confusion.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was about that time that you observed the odor?
Mrs CABELL. Of gunpowder.
Mr. HUBERT. That was when your car at least had come to a standstill?
Mrs. CABELL. Every car in the motorcade had come to a standstill.

I differ in interpretation of this part of the testimony.  To me, she is saying that she was stopped and heard the shooting of 3 shots.  And, stopped in the intersection.

 

10 hours ago, Mark Tyler said:

Sure, which merely demonstrates that she was at the interesection when the first shot was fired which I agree with.  She never claimed the car stopped at that point though, and the claim of the Mayor's car stopping at that point is your own interpretation.  No witness mentions it, and no film or photo shows it.  In fact, the Wiegman film directly refutes it as the car is cruising through the intersection at 8-10 MPH just a few seconds after the first shot:

And, she also didn't say the car stopped after the 3rd shot.  I read her testimony as the vehicle had been stopped and the shots occurred.  This is based upon her clear and unambiguous statement of her position.

10 hours ago, Mark Tyler said:

I have been saying for over two years that the current "lone nut theory" with a missed shot at Z160 or before belongs in the garbage can, so to suggest I support the official story is wrong.  I don't rule out a three shot scenario involving Lee Harvey Oswald, but the missed shot must have been fired well after the head shot as many witnesses reported this back in 1963.  I'm also happy to consider other evidence based theories about the crime scene, so for example I think it's quite possible that two shots were fired in rapid succession during the shooting (thus requiring a second gunman).

I accept that by disagreeing with 99% of theories on both sides of the debate I will never be popular, but as I've always said, I do my work without fear or favour (including me correcting my own mistakes when people present evidence or analysis, such as in this very thread).

Who said anything about a missed shot?   Just watched a youtube video on one of the experts proclaiming years later there were 4 shots.  Many witnesses also said there were more than 3 shots.   

Fritz and Curry and all others couldn't place Oswald on the 6th floor Sniper's Nest.  I do rule it out.  There is substantial evidence (beyond a reasonable doubt) to indicate no one fired a weapon from the Sniper's Nest.  Happy to consider other evidence?  Your are not considering what people in the TSBD said.  And, are not including 110+ witness statements in your analysis.  You do rule them out.  You favor that info that gives an interpretation of the official story.  And, you also nudge your statements to include more than what is there.

In saying the shot at Z 160 belongs in the garbage can denies many witnesses who said they heard shooting while the p. limo was obscured by trees.  These witnesses were in the TSBD.

10 hours ago, Mark Tyler said:

Sure, which merely demonstrates that she was at the interesection when the first shot was fired which I agree with.  She never claimed the car stopped at that point though, and the claim of the Mayor's car stopping at that point is your own interpretation.  No witness mentions it, and no film or photo shows it.  In fact, the Wiegman film directly refutes it as the car is cruising through the intersection at 8-10 MPH just a few seconds after the first shot:

Can't happen if the motorcade is stopped 8 to 11 seconds with the Mayor's Car in the intersection.  And, then there would be some time to start up.  8-10 miles per hour is not a fast speed to obtain from a start up.  It is easily reached.  8-10 miles is the speed one uses in making that turn.  Have you ever made the turn from Houston to Elm?  It is a strange turn.  No witnesses or films show your version conclusively.  They are open to interpretation.  And, another question is how reliable are they.  Groden's Weigman film shows in one part a slow down of the vehicles making the turn.  It doesn't show whether they start from a stop or are already moving.  That part of the film is not there so it is open to interpretation.  It shows them making the turn.  It's very reminiscent of of the Towner animation as the cars float past the TSBD.      

Your assignment of motorcycle cops going in the Motorcade mixes the Advance and Lead motorbikes.  The first Advance Motorcyles were 3 in number and not 5.  These were Bellah, McBride, and Garrick, 3 in number.  The Lead Motorbikes were 5 in number and not 3.  These were Gray, Brewer, Freeman, Lumpkin, and Ellis.  This is an old argument.

You have the Advance motorbikes as 5 in number.  I think that is a misinterpretation of the Muchmore film.  That film has at least 7-8 gaps showing what and who went through the intersection.  Patsy Paschall shows the motorbikes correctly. 

On the whole, the tremendous work you put into the motorcade is biased by your preferences.    

[John Butler]

From earlier post:

Dave Wiegman with info from Bart Camp site

The Dave Wiegman film is a puzzler.  Some elements of the film do not ring true.  I’m beginning to wonder if Robert Groden put together Dave Wiegman’s film segments in a different order or used another film with the Wiegman film.  Most of the videos you see of Dave Wiegman’s film is the NFV production of Robert Groden. 

In a telephone interview on 3-11-89 in Pictures of Pain pages Richard Trask pages 371-372 Says the following: (This is located at prayerman.com/Bart Kamp)

“We were in that straight-a-way heading down to what I now know as the Book Depository, (Houston Street comment added) and I heard the first report and I thought like everybody that it was a good size firecracker—a cherry bomb .Then when I heard the second one, the adrenaline really started pumping because there was a reaction in the motorcade, I was sitting on the edge of the (car door) frame, which I sometimes did. I keenly remember right after the incident that my feet were on the ground during one of the reports.
I don’t think I was fast enough to react to the second, but I think on the third one I was running. The car had slowed down enough for me to jump out. I swung my leg over and jumped while the car was still moving, but it was very slow. I jumped and I remember running and I remember the third shot.

When I got out I knew I better get around the corner. The car was  stopping. I’d better run around there and see what was happening. I knew the reaction was to run forward. I’d done this before in other motorcades because a lot of times the President will stop and do something. He might just shake a hand. He might look at a sign. So you’re doing no good sitting in your car, and you can always retrieve your car as it goes by….It was a technique I’ve used and I’ve gotten some good pictures that way. That may have been built in to get out and run and get up there and see what the heck’s happening. The motorcade has stopped, plus you heard a report I don’t think I thought on the first or second ( shot ), but when the third one went off, I really thought I felt the compression on my face . I really thought I felt it. Then I thought “Somebody is shooting”.

The idea of turning on the camera, I don’t know where that came from. I’ve turned in some real sloppy work over the years that went into editing because I believed that sometimes you’re not photographing what’s happening as much as the moment. It’s a slice of time. And something told me, “hey look, what have I got to lose. I’ve got a full spring and just turn it on.” I can’t stop and plant my feet, so I put it against my chest because you can’t run with a Filmo up to your eyes. So I just slid it down under my chin and looked forward and ran as fast as I could and took in everything I could.”

Telephone interview Wiegman, 3/11/89. Pictures Of The Pain by Richard Trask pages 371-372.

His statements in bold are the problem.  He says he got out of Camera Car #1 on Houston Street.  And, then noted that the car was stopping.  While running he heard the third shot. Next, he ran around the corner of the intersection and began filming on Elm Street.

Here’s the problem.  At 17 seconds into the film some one is filming the payment.  This gives one the notion that Wiegman is still in the vehicle.  If it wasn’t Wiegman then who was it doing the filming?  I screen captured the entire Power DVD display in order to show the time, 17 seconds.  Thanks to Robin Unger for pointed out the usefulness of Power DVD.

Wiegman claims he got out on Houston Street.  Is this from Weigman’s film?  Or, is it part of another film we don’t know about?  Or, is this segment out of sequence in the film made by Groden?  It does not ring true with his statements in Pictures of Pain.

….

Another problem is that people believe there is 15 seconds between the Dave Wiegman and Couch-Darnell scenes of the TSBD steps.  There is something close to 37 seconds difference shown in the frame below which has the Camera Cars making the turn onto Elm Street from Houston Street at 38 seconds.

This montage is of 3 frames at 17,18 and 38 seconds.  The frame at 38 seconds shows that Weigman was not in the vehicle and could not have taken the frame at 17 seconds and the frame at 18 seconds:

This backs up Dave Wiegman’s Pictures of Pain statements on pages 371 and 372 which Trask later ignores.  The frame at 38 seconds was taken 20 seconds after the frames at 17 and 18 seconds.  Weigman is not in the vehicle.  So, who took the film?  Who took the film 20 seconds earlier? 

Trask in Pictures of Pain totally ignores Wiegman’s statements of pages 371 and 372.  He goes on to give a different version of events on page 373 in which Richard Sprague and Gary Mack give a version that is one that can be said to be compatible with the official story of the WC of the shooting to the president down by the Grassy Knoll.

Nowhere in the Wiegman film do you see anything like the assassination occurring on Elm Street.  It is after the presidential party has cleared the Plaza.

The Wiegman frame at 17 seconds into the film on Elm Street is supposed to have happened on Houston Street according to Weigman.  Who is following the National Press Pool Car when the Camera Cars are still on Houston Street as shown by the 38 second frame showing the Camera Cars turning the corner onto Elm Street 20 seconds later?

Who is the best witness on this?  Sprague and Mack or the witness, Dave Wiegman who took the film.  Why does Trask ignore what Wiegman says? 

One question is answered.  There is now 37 seconds approximately between Wiegman scene of the TSBD steps and Couch-Darnell’s scene of the TSBD steps.

OBTW, Marion Baker makes his run approximately 37 seconds after Weigman as seen in the Couch-Darnell film.  It still gives him about 1 minute to get to the 2^nd floor break room.  Unfortunately, he passed Oswald / Prayer Man on the TSBD steps and that is why the didn’t report the 2^nd Floor encounter in his 11-22-63 statement.  Who was the employee met on the 3^rd or 4^th floor steps? 

….

This reassesses the time for all parties involved and their time on Elm Street.   

Sorry, something has come up and I will fill in the pics later.

Edited August 20, 2021 by John Butler

[Chris Davidson]

10 hours ago, John Butler said:

 

 

 

This montage is of 3 frames at 17,18 and 38 seconds.  The frame at 38 seconds shows that Weigman was not in the vehicle and could not have taken the frame at 17 seconds and the frame at 18 seconds:

 

The small center frame above is approx 11 seconds after the Wiegman film begins.

From that point until the 26.75 second mark(Hester sync in the colonnade) is continuous filming.

Wiegman stops filming approx 4/10 sec after that.

Bell picks up Wiegman starting to rise, then Couch picks up Wiegman fully standing and running down the knoll.

Wiegman then films the Newman's on the ground and then onto Cameracar 1.

26.75-11 sec = 15.75 + .4 = 16.15seconds

1.73Bell + 1rise + 3.4Couch(-1Wiegman rise overlap) + 3.58 run down knoll + (6+) Wiegman starts filming Newmans = 15 seconds more

16.15+15 =31.15sec

This assumes when Wiegman arrives at the bottom of the knoll and starts filming the Newman's, it starts immediately after we no longer see him in Couch. Any delay adds more total time.

The Wiegman film was 36.5 seconds total for the Elm St sequence.

It was not a continuous 36.5 second clip.

 

 

[Chris Davidson]

Plotting Wiegman’s starting position using Mark’s CameraCar#1 location at extant z447(11 seconds in) and Wiegman’s filming position of the Hester’s using the Bell film, along with a direct line down to where Wiegman starts filming the Newman’s approx five feet up from the sidewalk.

Wiegman to steps        = 165ft
Wiegman to Newmans =  41ft
                                           206ft

 

Wiegman stops to film Hesters    = 2.56sec
Wiegman Stands 3.4(Couch) -1   = 2.4sec
Wiegman stops to film Newmans = 6seconds
                                                           11seconds                                     

31.15 - 11sec = 20.15seconds

206ft / 20.15sec = 10.22ft per sec = 6.95mph = average Wiegman running speed.

The two possible extended time gaps would be Wiegman standing up between the Bell and Couch films and before he starts filming the Newman’s.