EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[Paul Jolliffe]

22 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Fascinating!

Megathanks for the “Emil Gardos” clarification.  This is news to me.  The “Woman’s World” magazine referred to in the FBI report was surely the communist “Worker’s World.”  Gardos was said to be a magazine editor as well. 

The “New Masses” article Paul linked mentioned that Gardos had run for Congress in Wisconsin, and I found this about him in the Milwaukee Journal, Mar 20, 1949, p. 3:

Jim,

Your linked article provides further proof that the "Emile Kardos" of the mysterious woman caller's description and Emil Gardos are one and the same: the mysterious woman caller mentioned "brother-in-law" and "Kardos" and Communist activity (organizing, apparently) repeatedly. 

Near the top of the second column of the article we learn that Gardos's brother-in-law was indeed a prominent Communist organizer (and longtime FBI target!): Fred Bassett Blair.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/life/green-sheet/2017/01/17/milwaukee-bookstore-made-fbi-chief-see-red/96611154/

There can be no doubt: the mysterious woman caller was referring to Gardos and Blair when she made her call to Mrs. Jack Tippit.

Now, whether the mysterious woman caller was correct about some kind of connection between these men and "Oswald", well of that, there is no evidence and considerable doubt.

[Sandy Larsen]

7 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

There can be no doubt: the mysterious woman caller was referring to Gardos and Blair when she made her call to Mrs. Jack Tippit.

Now, whether the mysterious woman caller was correct about some kind of connection between these men and "Oswald", well of that, there is no evidence and considerable doubt.

 

Paul,

Why do you say there is considerable doubt that there is a connection between the two men, Gardos and Blair, and Harvey Oswald?

 

[Jim Hargrove]

Hi, Sandy,

Hopefully Paul will answer also, but here’s my take.

The anonymous phone call to the Tippits has always been intriguing for its specificity and uniqueness, and so let’s make the very reasonable assumption that Emil Gardos was the “father” and Fred Blair was the “uncle” referred to by the unknown woman.

From every indication, Gardos was a real communist whose activities attracted the attention of the U.S. government and eventually got him prosecuted.  If this is as it appeared, is it likely he (Gardos) would have allowed his young son to become entangled in a U.S. Intel operation?  Wouldn’t he have complained publicly?

There is, of course, the other possibility, that things were not as they appeared and Gardos was some sort of USG plant, which opens up all kinds of potential avenues leading to the possible accuracy of the anonymous call. For now, though, based on the known facts, it seems more likely to me that both he and Blair were legitimate communists.

If so, the approach outlined by John Kowalski on the previous page may hold more hope to unravel this puzzle.  Just my two cents worth.

[John Butler]

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 12:28 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Fascinating!

Megathanks for the “Emil Gardos” clarification.  This is news to me.  The “Woman’s World” magazine referred to in the FBI report was surely the communist “Worker’s World.”  Gardos was said to be a magazine editor as well. 

The “New Masses” article Paul linked mentioned that Gardos had run for Congress in Wisconsin, and I found this about him in the Milwaukee Journal, Mar 20, 1949, p. 3:

Some of the information in this article about Emil Gardos may not be exactly correct.  Ancesry.com list two Emil Gardos that are similar.  The second Emil Gardos is listed as Emil Bardos which is simply a census reader mistake that was corrected.  He was from Poland and had a 5 year old son in 1940.  This is not the Emil Gardos, the communist.  So, there is only one Emil Gardos in the 1940 Census that fits the bill for the newspaper article above.

Emil Gardos, the communist, never was a citizen.  He was not denaturalized, but his petition for citizenship was denied.  That amounts to about the same thing.  There was a trial over his petition, which was cancelled in 1934, by the US District Court for the Eastern District.  I would presume this was New York.

 

 

There are two numbers that are important here and underlined in red.  These numbers are used in describing Emil Gardos as a communist.  This was why he was denied citizenship.

and,

The 1940 census list Emil Gardos as an alien.  Also his job description is "Pressman" and "Newspaper"

This is from:

Emil Gardos

 in the 1940 United States Federal Census

Name:	Emil Gardos
Age:	34
Estimated birth year:	abt 1906
Gender:	Male
Race:	White
Birthplace:	Hungary
Marital status:	Married
Relation to Head of House:	Head
Home in 1940:	Ironwood, Gogebic, Michigan
Map of Home in 1940:	View Map Ironwood, Gogebic, Michigan
Street:	Norris Street
House Number:	418
Farm:	No
Inferred Residence in 1935:	New York, Manhattan, New York
Residence in 1935:	New York, Manhattan, New York
Resident on farm in 1935:	No
Citizenship:	Alien
Sheet Number:	1A
Number of Household in Order of Visitation:	8
Occupation:	Pressman
House Owned or Rented:	Rented
Value of Home or Monthly Rental if Rented:	20
Attended School or College:	No
Highest Grade Completed:	College, 4th year
Hours Worked Week Prior to Census:	56
Class of Worker:	Wage or salary worker in private work
Weeks Worked in 1939:	52
Income:	780
Income Other Sources:	No
Neighbors:	View others on page View others on page
Household Members:	Name Age Emil Gardos 34 Grace Gardos 29

There are some discrepancies.  John, the 1 year old son is not listed and should be.  Ages differ from other records. "newspaper" is not mentioned here.

Here is the actual Census entry:

All these records show that there was only one Emil Gardos.  He was from Hungary and Romania.  Born in Hungary and he was also (he claims) a citizen of Romania (that part that was not in the Austro-Hungarian Empire) in the city of Constantzia (Constanta) in Romania.  He was an alien not a citizen in 1940.  He was always an alien.  But, he did apply for citizenship.

There is a more than likely chance the Emil Gardos mentioned in these records is the Emil Kardos (Gardos) mentioned in the phone call to the Tippit lady. 

I don't know how you would prove that the 1 year old son of Emil Gardos, John, could be Harvey Oswald.  It is interesting, but a bit of a stretch lacking more info. 

Edited November 24, 2019 by John Butler

[John Butler]

14 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Hi, Sandy,

Hopefully Paul will answer also, but here’s my take.

The anonymous phone call to the Tippits has always been intriguing for its specificity and uniqueness, and so let’s make the very reasonable assumption that Emil Gardos was the “father” and Fred Blair was the “uncle” referred to by the unknown woman.

From every indication, Gardos was a real communist whose activities attracted the attention of the U.S. government and eventually got him prosecuted.  If this is as it appeared, is it likely he (Gardos) would have allowed his young son to become entangled in a U.S. Intel operation?  Wouldn’t he have complained publicly?

There is, of course, the other possibility, that things were not as they appeared and Gardos was some sort of USG plant, which opens up all kinds of potential avenues leading to the possible accuracy of the anonymous call. For now, though, based on the known facts, it seems more likely to me that both he and Blair were legitimate communists.

If so, the approach outlined by John Kowalski on the previous page may hold more hope to unravel this puzzle.  Just my two cents worth.

Jim,

The problem here is Sandy, my wife, can't find a sister of Fred B. Blair, for Emil Gardos to marry.  Fred appears to be an only child.  Sandy has about 3 decades experience working with ancestry.com and it predecessor Family TreeMaker.  We will continue looking, but at this point I doubt a Grace (wife of Emil and a sister of Fred Blair) can be found.

Info just in.  Fred B. Blair is not the brother of Grace Blair.  She is the daughter of Nealey and Mary Grace Barrett Blair.  Grace married Emil Gardos in Manhattan, New York on Aug. 26, 1936.  Nealey has no brother named Fred.  Fred might be some relative of Nealey known to Emil Gardos through family and communism.  Just speculation.

Note:  The above statement is wrong.  Read later posts for corrections.

Grace Gardos according to her Social Security death index of 1981 lists her last residence as the US Consulate in Budapest, Hungary. 

Edited November 25, 2019 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

Interesting that the wife of this commie ingrate listed as her final residence the the US Consulate in Budapest.  I’m assuming she was American born. 

At any rate, the following Milwaukee Sentinel article (November 19, 1976, p. 22) suggests that Fred Blair WAS the brother of Grace Blair Gardos and therefore the brother-in-law of Emil Gardos. Note the indication from Fred that the couple "lived in Budapest the past 28 years."  Could Emil nevertheless have spent time in New York City in the 1950s?

What would be far more interesting is any indication that Mr. and Mrs. Emil Gardos preferred to speak Russian rather than Hungarian.

[John Butler]

Jim,

Sandy has went back and checked on Fred.  There are no other Census records for him.  Being a communist he must not have cooperated with the Census takers.

The problem with relying solely on Census records is that they rarely tell you anything important about a person's life history other than the kind of data for ancestry.

Here's the marriage record.

Grace A Blair

 in the New York, New York, Extracted Marriage Index, 1866-1937

 

Name:	Grace A Blair
Gender:	Female
Marriage Date:	29 Aug 1936
Marriage Place:	Manhattan, New York, USA
Spouse:	Emil Gardos
Certificate Number: 23803   Notice this is Grace A. Blair.  For Grace E. and Grace A. Blairs, Sandy doesn't consider as a mistake simply because you run into this all the time in ancestry tracking.  The confusion of names. first or middle, kind of standard in this kind of research.  Particularly, if you can't find any records on a Grace A. Blair.  I'm arguing with Sandy that the Grace E Blair she has found is not Grace A Blair.   There will be more to come as this argument gets settled.

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by John Butler

[Sandy Larsen]

14 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

From every indication, Gardos was a real communist whose activities attracted the attention of the U.S. government and eventually got him prosecuted.  If this is as it appeared, is it likely he (Gardos) would have allowed his young son to become entangled in a U.S. Intel operation?  Wouldn’t he have complained publicly?

There is, of course, the other possibility, that things were not as they appeared....

 

Thanks Jim. Yeah, given your explanation, I can see where Paul was coming from.

I guess the reason that Paul's point didn't occur to me is because I've always been of the opinion that the woman who called  Mrs. Tippit was mistaken about Gardos and Blair being Harvey's father and uncle. It made little sense to me that the USG would take their young son/nephew for a future secret mission. It made a lot more sense that the boy was not related to the men at all and was merely in their custody at some point in time. And that the woman merely assumed he was the men's son/nephew.

I'm willing to speculate that far to make the story fit my CT because the story rings true to me. However, an alternate possibility is that it's merely a case of mistaken identity. Maybe Harvey's photos looked just like Gardos's son to the woman, and she -- knowing that these men were "evil" communists -- figured that the son had been sent to kill Kennedy.

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Sandy Larsen

[John Butler]

I think the mystery is solved.  Here is a record of a family history of the Grace and Emil Gardos family.

Grace's parents are John Blair and Mary Bassett.  She was born in Michigan and died in Budapest, Hungary.  So, at this point we have the right Grace Blair.  She is Grace A. Blair married to Emil Gardos.

Next Record is the 1920 Census record for John and Mary Blair.  In this Census record the child Carroll Blair is very important.  This is the sibling of Grace Blair.

Grace Blair in the 1920 United States Federal Census

Name:	Grace Blair
Age:	9
Birth Year:	abt 1911
Birthplace:	Wisconsin
Home in 1920:	Fond du Lac Ward 8, Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
Street:	Street 52
Residence Date:	1920
Race:	White
Gender:	Female
Relation to Head of House:	Daughter
Marital status:	Single
Father's name:	John A Blair
Father's Birthplace:	Minnesota
Mother's name:	Mary A Blair
Mother's Birthplace:	Wisconsin
Able to Speak English:	Yes
Attended School:	yes
Able to Read:	Yes
Able to Write:	Yes
Neighbors:	View others on page View others on page
Household Member	Name Age John A Blair 53 Mary A Blair 46 Clemence A Blair 23 Isabelle Blair 21 Clarence Blair 21 Hazel Blair 19 Naomi Blair 17 Caroll Blair 13 Edward Blair 12 Amy Blair 10 Grace Blair 9 Madeline Blair     6

When we check the 1920 Census for Caroll Blair we have this.  Caroll is a male not a female and actually goes by Fred Blair.

I  didn't underline the parents names here of John and Mary Blair.

and now for Fred:

To make this long story short Uncle Fred Blair is Caroll Blair and that is what caused the confusion.  The articles are correct. 

There is a better than average chance that Emil and Fred are the ones under discussion.  John Gardos, the son of Grace and Emile, is a good candidate for Harvey Oswald, but needs a great deal more evidence to link the two.

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by John Butler

[Paul Jolliffe]

11 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Thanks Jim. Yeah, given your explanation, I can see where Paul was coming from.

I guess the reason that Paul's point didn't occur to me is because I've always been of the opinion that the woman who called  Mrs. Tippit was mistaken about Gardos and Blair being Harvey's father and uncle. It made little sense to me that the USG would take their young son/nephew for a future secret mission. It made a lot more sense that the boy was not related to the men at all and was merely in their custody at some point in time. And that the woman merely assumed he was the men's son/nephew.

I'm willing to speculate that far to make the story fit my CT because the story rings true to me. However, an alternate possibility is that it's merely a case of mistaken identity. Maybe Harvey's photos looked just like Gardos's son to the woman, and she -- knowing that these men were "evil" communists -- figured that the son had been sent to kill Kennedy.

 

Sandy and John Butler,

Yes, I agree that it is at least possible that the mysterious woman caller MAY have mistakenly identified a young "Oswald" (instead of Emil Gardos's real son, John) as the son/nephew of Gardos and Blair in Yorkville. 

That's plausible.

However, there are two powerful counterarguments, and they both involve the behavior of the FBI:

1. In 1963, when Mrs. Jack Tippit reported her mysterious conversation with the unknown woman to the FBI, the FBI would have known instantly to whom the woman referred!

By 1963, Emil Gardos and Fred Bassett Blair had "commie" files a mile thick at the FBI! The FBI knew damn well exactly who the woman meant!

Instead, the FBI deliberately garbled the names - Emil Gardos became "Emile Kardos" (with a very suspicious and prominent handwritten asterisk right over the name!), the longtime FBI target Fred Blair was reduced to anonymity, and the longtime editor of the "Worker's World" (Louis Weinstock, another FBI target) became the more nebulous FNU Weinstock of a nonexistent publication, "Woman's World".

(The FBI's outrageous history of purposely obscuring sensitive names and information has a long, fine tradition, so much so that Harold Weisberg insisted 50 years ago that one needed a special dictionary to translate "FBI-ese.")

Therefore, I find it impossible to believe the FBI's seeming incompetence about identifying the two men mentioned the in phone call was genuine. They pretended they did not know to whom the woman referred.

2. The FBI report about Mrs. Jack Tippit's conversation with the mysterious woman caller was suppressed until 1993 - the HSCA in the 1970's had it, but it was not until the ARRB released it that we got to see it.

http://harveyandlee.net/Harvey Who/Tippit-FBI_Graphical.htm

If this was really a simple case of mistaken identity in 1963, WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD BOTH THE WARREN COMMISSION AND THE HSCA HAVE HIDDEN IT FOR DECADES?

No, the fact this report was suppressed tells us there is something sensitive here. It does not tell us that "Oswald" was truly the biological son of either Gardos or Blair, merely that the woman caller apparently thought so. 

But it does tell us that young "Oswald" probably had some kind of Yorkville connection to these men, however brief, a connection that was noted and remembered by this mysterious caller. 

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[John Butler]

Paul,

Your sound reasoning makes John Gardos = Harvey Oswald more plausible. 

Emil Gardos and Fred (Caroll) Blair were real people.  The woman who made the call to the Tippits knew these people.  And, she knew their background.  If this is correct she probably knew John Gardos at one point in time.  If so this makes the John Gardos=Harvey Oswald more acceptable.

Jim Hargrove's newspaper articles, the Census and other data flesh the two out and establish their reality.  Real people and not someone made up by the woman or the FBI.

More research is need on why Grace Gardos last residence was in the US Embassy in Budapest.  Was she living there as an employee?  What was her connection there?  If she was an employee there why was she, with so many communist associations, there? 

Based on current evidence Emil Gardos never became a citizen.  He was subject to deportation since 1934.  It might be possible that in order to remain in the US with his wife he began to cooperate with the FBI or some other government agency like he CIA or its predecessor the ONI in the 1930s and the OSS during the 1940s.  I am not sure, but I think the only dedicated intelligence agency during 1930s was the ONI.  Once cooperating he would not want to be exposed to his fellow travelers.  There could have been drastic results of such an exposure.

Presumptions, assumptions, and speculations are important in giving one a sense of what to look for, or a direction to take.  At some point circumstantial evidence begins to become meaningful. 

Note:  Emil Gardos was married to an American citizen.  Would that keep him from being deported?  Deportation could be used against him.  In those days (30s) if the government wanted to deport they could find a reason.  Gardos was a poor fellow living off the money he received from the Communist Party.  Would he have had the resources to take his wife and son with him if he was deported?  Would this make him more likely to cooperate with some government agency when they were looking to establish a long-term covert operation.

Edited November 25, 2019 by John Butler

[John Kowalski]

Does anyone want to speculate about why she made the call, was it to reinforce the idea that Oswald was communist by leaking this information to the Tippits?

Could this woman have known about the short fat Marguerite Oswald? If this woman was reading the papers everyday to obtain updates on JFK's assassination, Marguerite must have been mentioned in the 8 days that elapsed from November 22 to November 30, the date of the FBI report. If she had read in the papers about Marguerite and believed that Oswald's relatives were Hungarian communists did she know or suspect something about the Oswald doppelganger project?

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by John Kowalski

[Paul Jolliffe]

2 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Paul,

Your sound reasoning makes John Gardos = Harvey Oswald more plausible. 

Emil Gardos and Fred (Caroll) Blair were real people.  The woman who made the call to the Tippits knew these people.  And, she knew their background.  If this is correct she probably knew John Gardos at one point in time.  If so this makes the John Gardos=Harvey Oswald more acceptable.

Jim Hargrove's newspaper articles, the Census and other data flesh the two out and establish their reality.  Real people and not someone made up by the woman or the FBI.

More research is need on why Grace Gardos last residence was in the US Embassy in Budapest.  Was she living there as an employee?  What was her connection there?  If she was an employee there why was she, with so many communism associations, there? 

Based on current evidence Emil Gardos never became a citizen.  He was subject to deportation since 1934.  It might be possible that in order to remain in the US with his wife he began to cooperate with the FBI or some other government agency like he CIA or its predecessor the ONI in the 1930s and the OSS during the 1940s.  I am not sure, but I think the only dedicated intelligence agency during 1930s was the ONI.  Once cooperating he would not want to be exposed to his fellow travelers.  There could have been drastic results of such an exposure.

Presumptions, assumptions, and speculations are important in giving one a sense of what to look for, or a direction to take.  At some point circumstantial evidence begins to become meaningful.  

Deported he may have been, but Emil Gardos had an address in Yorkville (217 East Eighty-sixth Street, New York, New York) according to page 854 of the 1949 Hearings before the Subcommittee on Immigration and Naturalization of the Senate Judiciary Committee ("Communist Activities Among Aliens and National Groups")

Further down page 854 we find "Louis Weinstock, 24 Metropolitan Oval, New York, New York."

https://books.google.com/books?id=mcL15crl6NIC&pg=PA854&lpg=PA854&dq=emil+gardos+communist&source=bl&ots=o7U_PWYM9Q&sig=ACfU3U3gTuLbCsxp36RCBPuCceoiffm1aA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi-_eyG1YXmAhUNQ60KHZtlC-QQ6AEwBHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=emil gardos communist&f=false

Again, this further emphasizes my earlier point: the FBI knew exactly who these men were when they got the call from Mrs. Jack Tippit in 1963! The United States Government had been keeping tabs on these men for decades!

 

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

2 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

Does anyone want to speculate about why she made the call, was it to reinforce the idea that Oswald was communist by leaking this information to the Tippits?

Could this woman have known about the short fat Marguerite Oswald? If this woman was reading the papers everyday to obtain updates on JFK's assassination, Marguerite must have been mentioned in the 8 days that elapsed from November 22 to November 30, the date of the FBI report. If she had read in the papers about Marguerite and believed that Oswald's relatives were Hungarian communists did she know or suspect something about the Oswald doppelganger project?

 

John,

Good questions. Yes, I suspect that the mysterious woman caller may have had some awareness of "Marguerite". The argument that a young "Oswald" - presumably some sort of future intelligence asset - would have needed a mother figure is compelling to me. This is not to say I think "Marguerite" was necessarily "Oswald's" biological mother, or even related to him. I doubt she was. 

This caller may not have known of the doppelganger project, but she clearly believed she had inside information about "Oswald's" background, information which she believed connected "Oswald" to some nefarious communist conspiracy that led to the assassination. We know that wasn't so, but she did not. 

"Oswald" knew at least some Yiddish. He did not learn it in Texas, nor in New Orleans. He learned it in Yorkville, New York City.

From the testimony of Nelson Delgado:

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you know whether Oswald spoke any other language. You mentioned before he spoke Russian.
Mr. DELGADO - Russian.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you think that he was proficient in Russian at that time or highly proficient?
Mr. DELGADO - Yes; I imagine he would be, because he was reading the paper, and basically if he can read it, you know, I imagine he could speak it also.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you hear him speak Russian?
Mr. DELGADO - Well, like I say, he tried to teach me Russian, but then another time I had some thought that what he was speaking to me was German; but according to the agent, he messed me all up, and I couldn't figure whether it was Hebrew or German. I tried to tell him that some of the words he had mentioned to me at the time I didn't recognize them, but when I came back from Germany some of those words I do remember, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER - It seemed to you like it was German?
Mr. DELGADO - Like German; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - But you only came to that conclusion after you had been to Germany?
Mr. DELGADO - Right. At the time it could have been Yiddish or German, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER - Could it have been Russian?
Mr. DELGADO - No; different gutteral sounds altogether.
Mr. LIEBELER - But you did not know whether Oswald spoke this other language to any extent; he just used a few words?
Mr. DELGADO - No; I just remember his particular language, which I am in doubt about, had a "ch" gutteral sound to it [indicating], you know; and I could only assume it was Jewish or German, and later on when I was in Germany, I think, I am pretty sure it was German that he was speaking.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did he speak it well or did he just use a few words?
Mr. DELGADO - He speaks it like I speak it now, you know, like, just phrases, you know. Where he picked them up, I don't know.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[John Butler]

Paul,

"2. The FBI report about Mrs. Jack Tippit's conversation with the mysterious woman caller was suppressed until 1993 - the HSCA in the 1970's had it, but it was not until the ARRB released it that we got to see it. "

And, if the ARRB didn't release it more time would have passed maybe until the Trump release. 

From what you say in that sentence, I find reason to think the Tippit call is credible.  The woman who called knew the background of the two and possibly their family.  If that is so then she knew about John Gardos.   

Emil Gardos was denied citizenship in 1934.  As far as I know he was not deported.  Maybe the denial of citizenship and non-deportation led Emil Gardos into becoming a government informer.  He had been tracked as a communist for years before by the government. 

I don't have any information on Fred Blair, but I would assume he was a fellow traveler as deep into Marx and Communism as Emil Gardos.