DiEugenio, Cranor, and the mole (my mole) - 3/31/20

[Richard Price]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I've skimmed Best Evidence but can't find it.

Sandy, I know it is in Best Evidence, but I also can't remember exactly where.  I did a quick search on the web and came up with this description from Richard Lipsey.  I do not think this is the first entrance as described in Best Evidence, though.  An honor guard lifted the heavy bronze casket from the hearse, took it into the morgue, and set it on the floor. “Then the honor guard left,” says Lipsey. “It was just myself and a couple of technicians in the room. We lifted the body out of the coffin and put it on a table. I had never seen a dead man before.”  I just found this entry for the first entry 18:30, almost one and one half hours earlier than the Lipsey entrance.  This is from Dennis David.  At around 6:30 p.m., David received a phone call stating that “your visitor is on the way: you will need some people to offload. ” David rounded up 7 or 8 sailors to carry in the casket and a few minutes later, a black hearse drove up. Several men in blue suits got out of the hearse, along with the driver and passenger, both of whom were wearing white (operating room) smocks. Under David’s supervision, the sailors offloaded the casket and carried it into the morgue.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Richard Price
Add information.

[Micah Mileto]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Hi David, I have a question for you.

I'm trying to recall who carried the Dallas casket into the autopsy room the first time. I know that Sibert and O'Neill helped, but who else?

Not asking for names (though that would be great)... was it other FBI agents, or some of the autopsy technicians? Unknown?

I've skimmed Best Evidence but can't find it.

There is controversy over whether an honor guard carried the casket or if it was somebody else. I'd search for the term "honor guard".

[Michael Crane]

One thing that I find disturbing about Lipsey is his drawing of one shot low to the back of the head and another somewhere around 4 inches lower or in the neck.In the drawing the wounds are vertically parallel with each other.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Michael Crane

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Richard Price said:

Sandy, I know it is in Best Evidence, but I also can't remember exactly where.  I did a quick search on the web and came up with this description from Richard Lipsey.  I do not think this is the first entrance as described in Best Evidence, though.  An honor guard lifted the heavy bronze casket from the hearse, took it into the morgue, and set it on the floor. “Then the honor guard left,” says Lipsey. “It was just myself and a couple of technicians in the room. We lifted the body out of the coffin and put it on a table. I had never seen a dead man before.”  I just found this entry for the first entry 18:30, almost one and one half hours earlier than the Lipsey entrance.  This is from Dennis David.  At around 6:30 p.m., David received a phone call stating that “your visitor is on the way: you will need some people to offload. ” David rounded up 7 or 8 sailors to carry in the casket and a few minutes later, a black hearse drove up. Several men in blue suits got out of the hearse, along with the driver and passenger, both of whom were wearing white (operating room) smocks. Under David’s supervision, the sailors offloaded the casket and carried it into the morgue.

 

Thanks for looking, Richard.

There were three entrances to the morgue(!), as follows:

1. A cheap casket was carried in by sailors. (I thought it was carried in by men in suits, but apparently I remembered wrong. Thanks for your correction.) Kennedy's body was in a body bag.
2. The expensive casket from Dallas was carried in by FBI agents Sibert and O'Neill along with other guys. (These are the guys I'm asking Lifton about.) Of course the casket was empty because the body was already inside. But the guys carrying it in didn't know that.
   
   Some time after that, the body was secretly put in the Dallas casket and the casket was sneaked outside and put in a navy ambulance.
3. The expensive casket from Dallas was carried in a second time, this time with the body inside. It was carried in by the military honor guard.

What this means is that there were two groups of men who believe they carried JFK's casket in (along with the body). Apparently they didn't talk to each other.

Certain forum members say that this is nonsense... but that's only because they are ignorant of the facts. I want to be able to ask them, how is it possible that the casket was carried in by two sets of men. We know who the honor guard was, and hopefully I will find out at least a couple members of the other group. That way I could prove that there were two groups.

Actually, as it now stands now I believe I can do that. And it's all documented. You see, we know that the honor guard filled every pallbearer position. How do we know that? Because General McHugh wanted to be one of the pallbearers, and made a fuss till one of the guys was kicked off the team to make room for the general. Again, this is all documented. We also have documented the fact that FBI agents Sibert and O'Neill also carried the casket in. Well, that information alone begs the question, how is it possible that there were more pallbearers than there were pallbearer positions. Of course WE know it's possible because we know the casket was carried in twice. But those yahoos who belittle Lifton don't know or believe that.

This should be fun.  😋

 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Michael Crane said:

One thing that I find disturbing about Lipsey is his drawing of one shot low to the back of the head and another somewhere around 4 inches lower or in the neck.In the drawing the wounds are directly parallel in line with each other.

 

Michael,

I don't find that disturbing at all. First off, Lipsey wasn't a medical guy IIRC. I think he was the aid to some admiral. Second, take note of where the two entrance wounds in the back actually were. One was near the occipital protuberance, which is that bump on the back of the skull, just above the hairline. That is the one that Lipsey described as being high on the neck. I haven't seen the drawing, but you describe the wound as being low on the back of the head. Don't you see that these are all referring to the same spot?

Lipsey said that the other wound was at the bottom of the neck. This is the wound that's really on the back. Lipsey was off by a couple of inches. Any lay person could be off by that amount when recalling something they weren't paying much attention to.

 

[Michael Crane]

 

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by Michael Crane

[Michael Crane]

Edited for change of opinion.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Michael Crane

[Sandy Larsen]

20 minutes ago, Michael Crane said:

 

 

 

Reminder to Self

Don't trust Lipsey on any wound information given at the HSCA hearings or later. His integrity has been compromised. (I'm sure he thinks he's being patriotic.)

 

[Micah Mileto]

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Reminder to Self

Don't trust Lipsey on any wound information given at the HSCA hearings or later. His integrity has been compromised. (I'm sure he thinks he's being patriotic.)

 

Why on Lipsey? I do know that in subsequent interviews he claimed to believe in the official version of the shooting.

[David Lifton]

On 4/5/2020 at 2:28 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

This is where what I believe parts with what David believes. He apparently believes that only the body was altered.

I believe that not only was the body altered, but so were some of the photos, x-rays, and FBI reports. There are instances among all these where alteration is clearly detected. Most of these alterations were performed as needed by individuals at the FBI tasked with the government cover-up. The body alteration, on the other hand, occurred so early on and quickly that it seems to have been planned before the assassination

I believe that the CIA planned the assassination and the FBI covered it up in an ad hoc fashion in an attempt to thwart part of the CIA's goal, which was to blame Cuba and Russia.

Hi Sandy:

As a close student of the Parkland record, and someone who interviewed the key Dallas doctors (going back to October 1966, and using a tape recorder), some comments and corrections are called for.

#1: I have always believed that the image(s) of the back of the head are false --either because certain autopsy photographs were altered (e.g., using a photo enlarger);  or (alternatively) because there was actual reconstruction at the rear of the head, before a particular photo was taken. Bottom line: there were two possible ways any false image could have been created. Take you choice.  This is discussed in B.E., Chapter 30.

#2: The Dallas record is clear that (at Parkland Hospital), there was a defect (a hole) at the bottom of the back of the head, in the occipital area..  As I recall, it was Dr. Jenkins (the anesthesiologist) who wrote (in his report dated 11/22 or 11/23/63), that "the cerebellum protruded through" the wound. If you will consult Grant's Atlas of Anatomy (or any comparable anatomy book), it will be obvious that that JFK sustained a head wound that was located at the bottom of the back of his head (in the occipital area), in order for the cerebellum to have "protruded" through the wound. At the time (Jan 1967, approx) Jenkins specified (to me) that the hole at the back of the head was the size of an egg (emphasizing that he was referring to type you'd buy at a supermarket).

#3: The Bethesda X-ray (one of the lateral X-Rays) shows no defect at the back of the head; and the occipital bone is plainly visible.  Rather, the defect is located towards the front of the head. A clear conflict.  However the image alteration was accomplished, that image bears little relationship to what was observed at Parkland, and has obviously been falsified.

#4: I published these "official" images in the 1988 Carroll & Graff edition of Best Evidence, and in the mass paperback edition that followed, some years later.

#5: Addressing your assertion: "The body alteration, on the other hand, occurred so early on and quickly that it seems to have been planned before the assassination."  You might be more specific and spell out precisely what you mean by asserting it was planned "before the assassination."

Edited April 26, 2022 by David Lifton

[David Lifton]

14 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Hi David, I have a question for you.

I'm trying to recall who carried the Dallas casket into the autopsy room the first time. I know that Sibert and O'Neill helped, but who else?

Not asking for names (though that would be great)... was it other FBI agents, or some of the autopsy technicians? Unknown?

I've skimmed Best Evidence but can't find it.

From memory: It was Sibert and O'Neill. (But perhaps there were others. Not sure.) But remember: they were not permitted entry for a short while; and --I believe -- that was to conceal the fact that the coffin (just arrived from AF-1) was empty.  See B.E. --and Ch 28, "The Clandestine Intermission" for details.  I think (but am not sure) that it was FBI Agent O'Neill who was particularly outraged at the notion that the FBI could be kept out of the autopsy room.  DSL

 

[David Lifton]

On 4/25/2022 at 4:04 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

Hi David, I have a question for you.

I'm trying to recall who carried the Dallas casket into the autopsy room the first time. I know that Sibert and O'Neill helped, but who else?

Not asking for names (though that would be great)... was it other FBI agents, or some of the autopsy technicians? Unknown?

I've skimmed Best Evidence but can't find it.

Sandy: Please send me your email address.  Thanks. DSL  (dlifton@gmail.com)

[David Lifton]

15 hours ago, Micah Mileto said:

Why on Lipsey? I do know that in subsequent interviews he claimed to believe in the official version of the shooting.

Micah:  Please send me your email address.  Thanks.  DSL dlifton@gmail.com

[Joseph McBride]

John Armstrong did exhaustive research and convinced

me that there were two Oswalds. I differ with him on whether

you can always pin down which was which, as his book

mostly tries to do, and on whether one of the Oswalds killed

Tippit. But his research is impressive, and those who

belittle it are struggling to discredit a major work in the

case that undermines the Warren Commission version

that they seem to have allegiance to, despite all of what

Oswald told his brother Robert was the "so-called evidence"

the authorities were trying to bring against him.

[Sandy Larsen]

19 hours ago, Micah Mileto said:

On 4/25/2022 at 11:43 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

Reminder to Self

Don't trust Lipsey on any wound information given at the HSCA hearings or later. His integrity has been compromised. (I'm sure he thinks he's being patriotic.

Expand  

Why on Lipsey? I do know that in subsequent interviews he claimed to believe in the official version of the shooting.

 

Well, just look at the locations of the wounds he made on his drawing for the HSCA.

I had read his HSCA testimony before and could see how a non-medical witness like him could mistake  the locations of the two entrance wounds... the upper one being high on the neck and the other being low on the neck. I could see how he could misremember a wound high on the back being almost on the bottom of the neck.

But when I look at his HSCA drawing, I see that he places the back wound very high and very much on the neck. Well, I suppose he might misremember that. But the thing that really makes me lose confidence in Lipsey regarding the wound location is the fact that he placed the blowout wound on the side of the head. It's like he's trying to agree with a dishonest element of the HSCA.

However...

This being a new day, and my having put more though into it, I'm beginning to think that I reacted too strongly when I fist saw Lipsey's drawing. Mainly because the HSCA medical "experts" weren't trying to put the blowout on the side of the head... rather they were trying to put it on the top of the head. And Lipsey's drawing doesn't support that.

In reality the blowout wound was on the side of the head, just not as far as Lipsey shows it.

So I'm restoring my faith in Lipsey to what it was a couple days ago.