DiEugenio, Cranor, and the mole (my mole) - 3/31/20

[Eddy Bainbridge]

The theories regarding an abort team and two different groups attempting the assassination don't seem well substantiated to me. I think equally plausible is that some shots (possibly from the TBSD) were merely to create a distraction, whereas silenced shots were fired by the assassins. How did Hargis get hit?

[Jim Hargrove]

On 8/28/2020 at 3:52 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

The problem with far-fetched tin-foil-hat theories like the 'Harvey and Lee' nonsense and Lifton's body-alteration nonsense is that the explanations they provide are implausible.

Gene Kelly, posted 7/28/20:

The work of Armstrong - and Jim Hargrove's representation - must somehow threaten someone (or something) for it to become so personal.  Such staunch opposition ironically has the opposite effect on me ... it sends a message that there's substance to the H&L anomalies. 
 

James DiEugenio, posted 8/14/20:

I don't have a dog in this fight, but its striking when, in their mania to discredit Armstrong, WC critics team up with WC apologists like Parnell. To the point of using a phony application to a phony college which was part of a phony discharge.

I have presented much evidence on this forum for Harvey and Lee, and I resent being insulted like this nearly every day by Jeremy Bojczuk.  Don’t let people like Mr. Bojczuk mischaracterize this research without at least checking it out directly!  To see for yourself the H&L evidence, please visit the website John A. and I run:

HarveyandLee.net

[Jim Hargrove]

On 8/28/2020 at 3:52 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

On that note, does Sandy know why Jim Hargrove is taking a break from spamming threads with 'Harvey and Lee' talking points? Has he finally accepted that 'Harvey and Lee' is a lost cause?

The insults never end.

When there isn’t an active H&L thread, Mr. Bojczuk posts his attacks against me and H&L in any thread available. Why is he so interested in me?  Is he keeping a dossier?  Why?

H&L research is hardly a “lost cause,” and Mr. Bojczuk knows it.  In recent years three books have been published based on Harvey and Lee.   Just two feature-film length video talks by John Armstrong posted on YouTube by “MrChrillemannen” have a total of nearly 619,000 views.  The videos are:

Captain Westbrook, officer Tippit and Oswald's double

and

Who impersonated Lee Harvey Oswald?

 

[Dennis Berube]

On 8/28/2020 at 4:52 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

The proposed scheme was extravagantly unnecessary. Armstrong's theory is internally incoherent. Unless the authorities set up a long-term doppelganger scheme for no purpose, it too cannot have happened.

That's not fireproof logic there to say the least. John's work on Oswald is very complex and difficult to fully grasp but he has uncovered solid documented information to back a good amount of his work. It certainly cannot be satisfactorily explained away with such a straw man statement.

Lifton on the other hand...

[Pamela Brown]

I have uncovered evidence of Bob Dylan's wrestling with the JFK assassination in its aftermath, as well as having concerns related to Jack Ruby and Lee Oswald (as presented in an art exhibit) and have updated Deconstructing MMF to add definition:  

https://dylagence.wordpress.com/2020/04/09/deconstructing-murder-most-foul-were-a-j-weberman-and-david-icke-among-the-sources-bob-dylan-used/

 

[Jim Hargrove]

9 hours ago, Dennis Berube said:

That's not fireproof logic there to say the least. John's work on Oswald is very complex and difficult to fully grasp but he has uncovered solid documented information to back a good amount of his work. It certainly cannot be satisfactorily explained away with such a straw man statement.

Lifton on the other hand...

Thanks, Dennis.  I’ve been running this website for more than 20 years now, but John has written most of the material currently on HarveyandLee.net, and I’m proud to present his research to the world. 

Please feel free to check it out at:

HarveyandLee.net

[Jim Hargrove]

6 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

I have uncovered evidence of Bob Dylan's wrestling with the JFK assassination in its aftermath, as well as having concerns related to Jack Ruby and Lee Oswald (as presented in an art exhibit) and have updated Deconstructing MMF to add definition:  

https://dylagence.wordpress.com/2020/04/09/deconstructing-murder-most-foul-were-a-j-weberman-and-david-icke-among-the-sources-bob-dylan-used/

Hi, Pam,

My favorite granddaughter is in her final year of a physical therapy doctorate at Saint Catherine University in St. Paul, MN. Just a few weeks ago we enjoyed a picnic lunch with her right by a big waterfall near downtown Minneapolis.  What a beautiful place!

Speaking of Jack Ruby and LEE Oswald....

Let’s continue to look at some more evidence for two Oswalds.

1963: Harvey in New Orleans, Lee in Dallas

In the summer of 1963, when the Russian-speaking Lee HARVEY Oswald was in New Orleans pretending to be a pro-Castro commie, a lot of people saw American-born LEE Harvey Oswald hanging around with Jack Ruby in Dallas.  Among these people were Dorothy Marcum, Francis Irene Hise, Helen Smith (“Pixie Lynn”) , Dixie Lynn, Kathy Kay, and others.

Journalist Dorothy Kilgallen wrote in the New York Journal American (June 6, 1964): “It is known that 10 persons have signed sworn depositions to the Warren Commission that they knew Oswald and Ruby to have been acquainted.”

A few months ago Gary Shaw sent John A. a 10-page FBI report on a 1977 interview with a Ruby employee named Odell “James” Estes.  Estes told the FBI he worked at the Carousel Club from the last week in June until Sept. 2, 1963. 

Estes said he saw “Lee Oswald” at the Carousel Club many times during his employment there, including in Jack Ruby’s office.  He said he once drove Oswald to Love Field and even took two overnight fishing trips with Oswald to a lakeside cabin near Mineral Wells.  He described lengthy talks with this Oswald.  Since he (Estes) stopped working at the club on Sept. 2, he was quite certain that the two fishing trips, just a week apart, were both in August 1963.

Of course, in August 1963, Classic Oswald® was still in New Orleans.  Despite this depiction of “Oswald” being in New Orleans and Dallas simultaneously, an FBI cover memo states that Estes was “willing to submit to a polygraph examination” and “talked very coherently and did not evidence the mannerisms frequently associated with a mentally disturbed individual.”  It should be noted that although the 1977 FBI report indicated Estes was “80 percent blind,” in 1963 he could see well enough to drive a car.

A 10-page report on Odell Estes’ FBI interview can be read on the Mary Ferrell site at the link below:

ODELL ESTES FBI REPORT

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim Hargrove writes:

Quote

When there isn’t an active H&L thread, Mr. Bojczuk posts his attacks against me and H&L in any thread available. Why is he so interested in me?  Is he keeping a dossier?  Why?

There's no need for paranoia! I'm not attacking Jim, just pointing out problems with the ridiculous theory he has been promoting for "more than 20 years" (a brave admission for anyone to make).

I was just curious about Jim's failure to react in his usual way to a couple of related points on a different thread. Firstly, there's an unanswered question from Mark Stevens about the need for Jim to update his website:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26571-oswalds-language-abilities-and-evidence-related-to-his-soviet-soujourn-1959-63/?do=findComment&comment=427419

Secondly, on that thread we established two points of 'Harvey and Lee' doctrine:

(a) the hypothetical defecting doppelganger was a native speaker of Russian; and

(b) the purpose of the hypothetical double-doppelganger scheme was to allow the defector to understand what was being said around him in Russian.

But there's an obvious problem here. You do not need to be a native speaker to understand the language that is being used around you.

This is a central feature of 'Harvey and Lee' doctrine, and it doesn't make sense. Doctrine required the defecting doppelganger to be a native speaker of Russian in order to perform a task that did not require him to be a native speaker of Russian. The masterminds who supposedly set up the hypothetical long-term double-doppelganger scheme could not have done so for the purpose Jim and others have claimed.

Perhaps, instead, the defecting doppelganger was not a native speaker of Russian but merely a "reasonably fluent" speaker, as Jim suggested elsewhere:

Quote

The real purpose was to take a youth, reasonably fluent in the Russian language, give him an American ID, and eventually send him as a U.S. spy in the Soviet Union who secretly understood Russian.

A "reasonably fluent" non-native speaker would be suitable for the task prescribed by 'Harvey and Lee' doctrine, and would overcome the native-speaker problem.

But there's a problem here, too. If a "reasonably fluent" speaker is all that's required, there would have been no need to go to all the trouble and expense of setting up and maintaining the hypothetical long-term double-doppelganger scheme, with its two Oswalds, two Marguerites, and who knows how many assistants and administrators.

The masterminds could have saved themselves a decade or more of bother simply by recruiting one person with a talent for languages from among the 2.5 million American servicemen active at the time of the real-life, historical Lee Harvey Oswald's defection. As a bonus, almost all of these 2.5 million candidates would have had a genuine, watertight American background, thereby disposing of yet another requirement of the hypothetical 'Harvey and Lee' double-doppelganger scheme.

We're left with a problem. If the defector needed to understand Russian, it doesn't matter whether he was or was not a native speaker of Russian. Either way, the long-term double-doppelganger scheme was unnecessary.

How would Jim resolve this problem? He should feel free to reply to the points raised by Mark Stevens and me on whichever thread he prefers.

[Robert Burrows]

On 8/29/2020 at 1:43 PM, Pamela Brown said:

I have uncovered evidence of Bob Dylan's wrestling with the JFK assassination in its aftermath, as well as having concerns related to Jack Ruby and Lee Oswald (as presented in an art exhibit) and have updated Deconstructing MMF to add definition:  

https://dylagence.wordpress.com/2020/04/09/deconstructing-murder-most-foul-were-a-j-weberman-and-david-icke-among-the-sources-bob-dylan-used/

 

In your article you state that Dylan 

....outraged his conservative audience by expressing sympathy for Lee Harvey Oswald in his acceptance speech of the Tom Paine Award in December, 1963…

The National Emergency Civil Liberties Committee was not a conservative group. In 1953, Irving Kristol, who headed the conservative American Committee for Cultural Freedom, called the NECLC "a communist front with no sincere interest in liberty in the United States or elsewhere".

 

 

[Pete Mellor]

On 8/29/2020 at 6:43 PM, Pamela Brown said:

I have uncovered evidence of Bob Dylan's wrestling with the JFK assassination in its aftermath, as well as having concerns related to Jack Ruby and Lee Oswald (as presented in an art exhibit) and have updated Deconstructing MMF to add definition:  

https://dylagence.wordpress.com/2020/04/09/deconstructing-murder-most-foul-were-a-j-weberman-and-david-icke-among-the-sources-bob-dylan-used/

In your article you state:-

On 8/29/2020 at 6:43 PM, Pamela Brown said:

Papa Joe Kennedy was Ambassador to the Court of St. James for FDR, who ended up having to fire him because, as a fervent Hitler appeaser, he advised that the US could not win a war against Hitler. 

Shouldn't that be U.K.

[Sandy Larsen]

 

[deleted]

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Sandy Larsen

[Pamela Brown]

On 8/31/2020 at 6:33 AM, Pete Mellor said:

In your article you state:-

Shouldn't that be U.K.

It should.  Thanks!

[Pamela Brown]

On 8/31/2020 at 4:43 AM, Robert Burrows said:

In your article you state that Dylan 

....outraged his conservative audience by expressing sympathy for Lee Harvey Oswald in his acceptance speech of the Tom Paine Award in December, 1963…

The National Emergency Civil Liberties Committee was not a conservative group. In 1953, Irving Kristol, who headed the conservative American Committee for Cultural Freedom, called the NECLC "a communist front with no sincere interest in liberty in the United States or elsewhere".

 

 

I can qualify that statement.  Thanks...

[David Lifton]

On 4/14/2020 at 7:39 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Bingo.  I forget which witness with a good close view when told of the shots coming from behind said words to the effect of "of all the deer I've shot I never had one fall Towards me".  I've considered before that if shot from the right rear it should have exited the left front part of the head.  But not really that the blood, dura matter and other should have sprayed Nellie, Greer and the windshield instead of the trunk and Hargis. 

DSL Comment. . .

Re: I forget which witness with a good close view when told of the shots coming from behind said words to the effect of "of all the deer I've shot I never had one fall Towards me".  

That's a great line. Direct and to the point.  And unintentionally comedic.  

[Sandy Larsen]

Hi David, I have a question for you.

I'm trying to recall who carried the Dallas casket into the autopsy room the first time. I know that Sibert and O'Neill helped, but who else?

Not asking for names (though that would be great)... was it other FBI agents, or some of the autopsy technicians? Unknown?

I've skimmed Best Evidence but can't find it.