Early study of Acoustics Evidence?

[Matthew Koch]

Just now, Gerry Down said:

Thanks. I hadn't heard the bell before. But if this was a bell shouldn't it be ringing several times on the audio? Gary Mack makes it sound like it only rang once the way he presents it on that video.

It's the single ring to signify that it is half past the hour. I assume.. 

[Gerry Down]

1 hour ago, Matthew Koch said:

It's the single ring to signify that it is half past the hour. I assume.. 

I hadn't thought of that. But Mack would have had to demonstrate that any Dealey Plaza bell was ringing once on the half hour. HB McLain said the sound was actually a motorcycle riding over a loose manhole cover over near the Trade Mart.

[Matthew Koch]

55 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

I hadn't thought of that. But Mack would have had to demonstrate that any Dealey Plaza bell was ringing once on the half hour. HB McLain said the sound was actually a motorcycle riding over a loose manhole cover over near the Trade Mart.

We would have to do that since Mack died.

I'll check my Hear No Evil book to see what it says about that. I know they did do a one year later program that the Newsman who interrupted the woman's fashion show to report live that the President had been shot. He was in the plaza with co host during the shooting and they were in Dealey for the broadcast special. That might be what Mack is referencing about the Bell. I'll take a look at that too. 

[Matthew Koch]

P.643/644 Hear No Evil by Donald B Thomas, Mary Ferrell Foundation press 

 

Clear as a Bell 

At 153 seconds into the motorcycle transmission the distinct sound of a bell can be heard on CH-1. Such ambient noises could hold clues to the location of the motorcycle  with the open mike. In attempting to identify this bell the BBN team studied the sound spectrum of the bell tone. A spectrographic analysis of the tone revealed a harmonic series with a fundamental frequency (the hum note) around 220Hz (Fig. 17.5). The strike tone of the bell, the second harmonic, was at 440Hz, which is A below middle C. Overtones were clearly evident in the frequency spectrum of the tone including a minor third a fifth above the octave(called the tierce, 2.4 times the hum note) as is characteristic of a carillon bell.77 Carillon bells are rare, musically tuned bells, designed for bell towers, the most famous of which is Big Ben. Nowadays one more frequently hears recordings of such bells rather than the real deal. The HSCA staff was unable to locate a bell tower near Dealey Plaza. The bell's toll was captured on the sound track of a video tape made by KXAS Tv News in Dealey Plaza in 1964 on the first anniversary of the assassination at one o'clock in the afternoon. One citizen interview by researcher Gary Mack recalled that the bell was operated by a downtown bank and that the carillon had been programmed to play "Hail to the Chief" on the day of Kennedy's visit. 78 Mack was unable to confirm the latter details, but the news tape proves that a carillon bell was audible in Dealey Plaza, at least in November 1964. However, there were carillon bells in other parts of Dallas as well. Police advocate Anthony Pellicano found that the Lucas Baptist Church on the corner of Lucas and Rosewood also had a bell tower.79 Because the police radio system acted like a party line, allowing different sources to broadcast at the same time, this tolling of the bell could have been captured over a different microphone. Thus, the existence of a bell tower with a carillon bell audible in downtown Dallas does not prove that the motorcycle was in Dealey Plaza, though the sound of the bell is consistent with that scenario. But the picture may not be so clear. 

In a subsequent analysis of the recordings IBM scientists, including NRC panel member Richar Garwin, discovered that the bell sound is actually on both channels. 80 this anomaly led them to hypothesize that the sound might not even be a bell but perhaps only an interference pattern who's frequency mimicked a bell sound. An electrical disturbance somewhere in the circuitry common to the recording equipment of the separate channels could have generated a noise simultaneously imposed on both recordings. But while the interference hypothesis could explain the presence of the same noise on both channels, the harmonics of a simple interfere pattern would not have picked the complex harmonic intervals of a carillon bell and included the characteristic disharmony tierce note. The anomaly is a particular interest it occurs within seconds of the Decker Broadcast. Thus the existence of the bell sound on both recordings is an enigma whose greater importance may be that it holds clues to whatever phenomenon was imposing the time offsets between channels, an issue that has become central to the criticisms of the acoustical evidence. 

 

[Bill Fite]

On 11/13/2022 at 2:31 AM, Benjamin Cole said:

The problem is the acoustics evidence is that to the layman it is indecipherable. You get the classic "battling experts" problem. 

It doesn't help when even the experts I want to believe say things like "There were four shots...but maybe five." 

 

In one of the videos Vince Palamara posted on Youtube there was a simple explanation of the results of 1 of the experiments.

If I remember correctly:

• Around 30 microphones were placed along the parade route leading into and through Dealey plaza.   They were sequentially numbered  in their order along the route.
• shots were then fired from several locations and recorded at the above locations.
• the patterns from the 5 shots on the dicta belt were matched to the shot location / microphone pattern they most closely matched.  I don't remember if this was done visually or mathematically.
• each of the 5 shots were matched to different location microphones
• the patterns on the dictabelt are then labelled A,B,C,D,E in their order of occurance
• There are 5*4*3*2*1 = 120 possible ways to shuffle A->E
• The matching patterns from the microphone recordings of the experimental shots occurred in the A -> B -> C -> D -> E sequence.  There is only 1 way to get a sequence in this order .  
• So the odds of this happening are 1 in 120. 

It could happen by chance, but couple that with some of the other experimental evidence and probabilities and it makes a lone gunman hypothesis very unlikely.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Bill Fite said:

In one of the videos Vince Palamara posted on Youtube there was a simple explanation of the results of 1 of the experiments.

If I remember correctly:

• Around 30 microphones were placed along the parade route leading into and through Dealey plaza.   They were sequentially numbered  in their order along the route.
• shots were then fired from several locations and recorded at the above locations.
• the patterns from the 5 shots on the dicta belt were matched to the shot location / microphone pattern they most closely matched.  I don't remember if this was done visually or mathematically.
• each of the 5 shots were matched to different location microphones
• the patterns on the dictabelt are then labelled A,B,C,D,E in their order of occurance
• There are 5*4*3*2*1 = 120 possible ways to shuffle A->E
• The matching patterns from the microphone recordings of the experimental shots occurred in the A -> B -> C -> D -> E sequence.  There is only 1 way to get a sequence in this order .  
• So the odds of this happening are 1 in 120. 

It could happen by chance, but couple that with some of the other experimental evidence and probabilities and it makes a lone gunman hypothesis very unlikely.

 

Bill-

Yes...but a decades-old dictabelt? And if another group of experts sets up mikes do they get a different result? 

I will soon post about the Z film, and how it proves beyond reasonable doubt there were at least two gunman, or possibly one gunman with an automatic rifle, on Nov. 22. The timing, not the direction, of shots is the key feature. 

Much simpler and you can see it with your own eyes. 

Just IMHO...I do not dispute the acoustic evidence...it just seems indecipherable....

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Benjamin Cole

[Michael Griffith]

One of the things I find impressive about the acoustical evidence is the powerful locational correlations between the dictabelt gunshot impulses and the Dealey Plaza test-firing gunshots. Fig. 22 in the BBN report shows that the microphone locations that correspond to the locations of dictabelt impulses at the three times after the first impulse tend to progress uniformly forward along the motorcade route. The odds that these correlations are the result of chance are remote.

The NRC panel dealt with this impressive evidence by arguing that the BBN scientists had erred, that the BBN value of P<0.01 (i.e., less than 1
percent) was actually P=0.07 (i.e., 7 percent), and that therefore the “significance of the layout” indicated by Figure 22 was “considerably reduced” (NRC report, p. 37). In other words, the panel said that the probability that chance caused the locational correlations was 7 percent instead of less than 1 percent. In saying this, of course, the panel was admitting that their own calculations showed that the probability that chance did not cause the correlations was 93 percent.

The NRC panel made no effort to explain the significance of the fact that their own calculation found a 93-percent probability that the locational correlations occurred because the impulse patterns on the police tape were recorded by a motorcycle in Dealey Plaza during the assassination. In fact, they did not even specifically mention this. They simply noted that they determined the probability of chance was 7 percent and acted as though they had dealt a strong blow to the BBN report. Granted, 7 percent is more than "less than 1%," but it is still an extremely low probability of chance.

[Matthew Koch]

8 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Bill-

Yes...but a decades-old dictabelt? And if another group of experts sets up mikes do they get a different result? 

I will soon post about the Z film, and how it proves beyond reasonable doubt there were at least two gunman, or possibly one gunman with an automatic rifle, on Nov. 22. The timing, not the direction, of shots is the key feature. 

Much simpler and you can see it with your own eyes. 

Just IMHO...I do not dispute the acoustic evidence...it just seems indecipherable....

 

The acoustics is simple enough to understand that it was made into a tv segment for the public on Lenard Nemoy's in Search of back in the 80's 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1ejGsOzx9I

Edited November 22, 2022 by Matthew Koch

[Bill Fite]

9 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Bill-

Yes...but a decades-old dictabelt? And if another group of experts sets up mikes do they get a different result? 

 

Agreed about the dictabelt.   -- I was just going for the easiest to understand explanation of what it might show.

It's probable that if the matching of the dictabelt plots with a the set of of mics along the route was done mathematically (and done well) the order of the best matches would still be the same for the 5 sound waves.  

But it's still based on the assumption that the dictabelt is accurate.

[Benjamin Cole]

6 hours ago, Matthew Koch said:

The acoustics is simple enough to understand that it was made into a tv segment for the public on Lenard Nemoy's in Search of back in the 80's 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1ejGsOzx9I

Thanks for the link. Nemoy has a great voice for narration. 

[Michael Griffith]

This is from the summary in my article on the acoustical evidence:

* At least four sets of gunshot impulse patterns with echo patterns unique to Dealey Plaza occur on the dictabelt recording.

* Those echo patterns occur in the correct topographic order, which is an amazing correlation all by itself.

* The dictabelt contains N-waves from supersonic rifle fire, and those N-waves occur only among the identified gunshot impulse patterns, and only in the two impulse patterns that were recorded when the motorcycle’s microphone was in position to record them.

* The dictabelt not only contains N-waves but it also contains muzzle blasts and muzzle-blast echoes, and those N-waves, muzzle blasts, and muzzle-blast echoes occur in the correct order and interval.

* Windshield distortions occur in the dictabelt's gunshot impulse patterns when they should and do not occur when they should not.

[Matthew Koch]

2 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

This is from the summary in my article on the acoustical evidence:

* At least four sets of gunshot impulse patterns with echo patterns unique to Dealey Plaza occur on the dictabelt recording.

* Those echo patterns occur in the correct topographic order, which is an amazing correlation all by itself.

* The dictabelt contains N-waves from supersonic rifle fire, and those N-waves occur only among the identified gunshot impulse patterns, and only in the two impulse patterns that were recorded when the motorcycle’s microphone was in position to record them.

* The dictabelt not only contains N-waves but it also contains muzzle blasts and muzzle-blast echoes, and those N-waves, muzzle blasts, and muzzle-blast echoes occur in the correct order and interval.

* Windshield distortions occur in the dictabelt's gunshot impulse patterns when they should and do not occur when they should not.

Michael you said earlier that the lapel flap is irreverent or something to that regards. Can you explain to me how you get around that flap in the lapel happening when a blast impulse on the tape shows they line up. 
 

To me, both men seem to react about 10 frames from when they are shot. I think this is one of the major misconceptions researchers have when watching the Z film. They don't react like in Oliver Stones JFK (see that sequence) which is instantly. Both JFK and Connally don't have delayed reactions and if you carefully pay attention they have similar reaction times. This is just me but based on the Secret service agent seeing JFK hit in the shoulder, I think JFK is struck in both the back and neck (from shot from front) at around the same time which would line up with the discarded shot from the Blakey tests. JFK is hit somewhere around 195ish(don't have the exact figures in from of me) and we don't see his reaction until around 220 when he comes out from the sign and starts to react when the second strike hits Connally and flaps his lapel at 224ish and it takes him until around 135ish to start to react to that shot. 

[Steven Kossor]

I've had some experience with audio recordings (I understand what "compression" and other sound adjustment technology is), obtained the best available copies of the Dallas PD dictabelt audio recordings (through the generosity of a person from this forum who shared them with me) and studied them carefully using high quality audio recording and mixing equipment, and consulted with Doug Horne and others over the years about what the recordings contained.  There is no doubt that there are sounds on the DPD dictabelt recordings I analyzed that meet the standards for gunshot sounds (rapid attainment of atypically high amplitude with a very short duration), and that there are at least four of them that are plainly apparent (and up to four others that are probably not echoes), but here's the problem:  There is no three-wheeler motorcycle on any film of Dealey Plaza during the shooting time sequence; the "stuck mic" wasn't in the limo, Queen Mary, or on any of the two-wheel motorcycles that appear in the Nix, Moorman, Zapruder or other film & photo evidence taken during the shooting.  The three-wheel motorcycle with the stuck mic appears to have been up on Stemmons, quite a distance from DP at the time of the shooting.  It's possible that another microphone captured the sounds of gunshots in DP and that those sounds were mechanically mixed with the "stuck mic" sound recording (possibly during the creation of the existing copy of the DPD dictabelt recording).  The short version is that, although there are sounds that meet the criteria for gunshots on the existing DPD dictabelt recording, it is not possible to determine with a high level of confidence how those sounds came to be on that recording.  I've listened to the DPD dictabelt recordings in their entirety (from about 12:00 noon through about 5:00 pm) and found some really, really interesting things in them (discussions about ambulance activity being the most significant, I believe), and would be happy to talk with others about those recordings.

[Michael Griffith]

On 11/23/2022 at 1:39 PM, Steven Kossor said:

I've had some experience with audio recordings (I understand what "compression" and other sound adjustment technology is), obtained the best available copies of the Dallas PD dictabelt audio recordings (through the generosity of a person from this forum who shared them with me) and studied them carefully using high quality audio recording and mixing equipment, and consulted with Doug Horne and others over the years about what the recordings contained.  There is no doubt that there are sounds on the DPD dictabelt recordings I analyzed that meet the standards for gunshot sounds (rapid attainment of atypically high amplitude with a very short duration), and that there are at least four of them that are plainly apparent (and up to four others that are probably not echoes), but here's the problem:  There is no three-wheeler motorcycle on any film of Dealey Plaza during the shooting time sequence; the "stuck mic" wasn't in the limo, Queen Mary, or on any of the two-wheel motorcycles that appear in the Nix, Moorman, Zapruder or other film & photo evidence taken during the shooting.  The three-wheel motorcycle with the stuck mic appears to have been up on Stemmons, quite a distance from DP at the time of the shooting.  It's possible that another microphone captured the sounds of gunshots in DP and that those sounds were mechanically mixed with the "stuck mic" sound recording (possibly during the creation of the existing copy of the DPD dictabelt recording).  The short version is that, although there are sounds that meet the criteria for gunshots on the existing DPD dictabelt recording, it is not possible to determine with a high level of confidence how those sounds came to be on that recording.  I've listened to the DPD dictabelt recordings in their entirety (from about 12:00 noon through about 5:00 pm) and found some really, really interesting things in them (discussions about ambulance activity being the most significant, I believe), and would be happy to talk with others about those recordings.

 

I think Dr. Thomas makes a solid case that McClain's bike was in Dealey Plaza during the time in question. The photographic record does not give us a complete picture of the bikes that were in the plaza at the time, but the record does suggest that McClain's bike very well could have been there at the right time.

Anyone who argues that the gunshot impulse patterns on the dictabelt were not recorded in Dealey Plaza during the assassination must explain why the impulse patterns have echo patterns that are unique to Dealey Plaza; why those echo patterns occur in the correct topographic order; why the dictabelt contains N-waves from supersonic rifle fire; why those N-waves occur only among the identified gunshot impulse patterns and only in the two impulse patterns that were recorded when the motorcycle’s microphone was in position to record them; why the dictabelt contains muzzle blasts and muzzle-blast echoes; why those N-waves, muzzle blasts, and muzzle-blast echoes occur in the correct order and interval; why windshield distortions occur in the impulse patterns when they should and do not occur when they should not; and why the location and movement of the dictabelt's impulse patterns match the location and movement of the impulse patterns from the appropriate shots of the test firings in Dealey Plaza. 

As for someone else's question about the Z224 lapel flip and the dictabelt, since the Zapruder film has been altered, any attempt to correlate the dictabelt gunshot impulses with events in the Z film is problematic from the outset.

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Michael Griffith

[Guest]

On 11/23/2022 at 7:39 PM, Steven Kossor said:

I've had some experience with audio recordings (I understand what "compression" and other sound adjustment technology is), obtained the best available copies of the Dallas PD dictabelt audio recordings (through the generosity of a person from this forum who shared them with me) and studied them carefully using high quality audio recording and mixing equipment, and consulted with Doug Horne and others over the years about what the recordings contained.  There is no doubt that there are sounds on the DPD dictabelt recordings I analyzed that meet the standards for gunshot sounds (rapid attainment of atypically high amplitude with a very short duration), and that there are at least four of them that are plainly apparent (and up to four others that are probably not echoes), but here's the problem:  There is no three-wheeler motorcycle on any film of Dealey Plaza during the shooting time sequence; the "stuck mic" wasn't in the limo, Queen Mary, or on any of the two-wheel motorcycles that appear in the Nix, Moorman, Zapruder or other film & photo evidence taken during the shooting.  The three-wheel motorcycle with the stuck mic appears to have been up on Stemmons, quite a distance from DP at the time of the shooting.  It's possible that another microphone captured the sounds of gunshots in DP and that those sounds were mechanically mixed with the "stuck mic" sound recording (possibly during the creation of the existing copy of the DPD dictabelt recording).  The short version is that, although there are sounds that meet the criteria for gunshots on the existing DPD dictabelt recording, it is not possible to determine with a high level of confidence how those sounds came to be on that recording.  I've listened to the DPD dictabelt recordings in their entirety (from about 12:00 noon through about 5:00 pm) and found some really, really interesting things in them (discussions about ambulance activity being the most significant, I believe), and would be happy to talk with others about those recordings.

Thank you for explaining. 

I think a lot of us would like to know about the other interesting things in the recordings (like the ambulance activity you mention).    Perhaps best to start a new topic on that, I'm really looking forward to read more !