The inevitable end result of our last 56 years

[Matt Allison]

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Wasn't Barr one of your "flying monkey's" as you call them before he turned on Trump?

Yes, he was. That's a fact. Trump's coup plot was a bridge too far for him.

Tell us, what other message boards do you frequent where you opine on things you clearly have no clue about?

[Benjamin Cole]

4 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

This is called straw man argument isn’t it? Why quote me if you aren’t going to literally respond to at least a few points. Yes we agree sometimes, but disagree other times. Why can’t you see that right wing zealots have been far more disruptive of civil discourse, far more divisive? 

¡IMHO!

Paul-

I guess we have to agree to disagree. I do not see right-wing zealots as more, or less, disruptive or divisive to civil discourse than left-wing zealots. 

For every example of a someone carrying a "F...Biden" sign there is a counterpart.  

The 'Phant Party has not been inclusive enough, ever. On the other hand, the Donks play ID politics proactively 24/7. 

The 'Phants used to be the more-censorious party, but now the Donks want to censor social media.

Both parties have succumbed to neo-con, or neo-liberal (the same thing) foreign-trade-military outlooks, destructive to the American middle class.  

The Donks (at least some within) used to be skeptical of state powers, intel agencies and authoritarianism, while the 'Phants worshipped the FBI, CIA, police, etc. Now, the populist wing of the 'Phants are the most skeptical of state police agencies. (Side note: The Donk fawning over the Capitol Police is jaw-dropping to behold.) 

IMHO, I am justified in believing that establishment DC has merged into the purple party, with some social issue window-dressing to divert and divide the public.

¡IMHO!

 

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

44 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said:

One thing that I believe William and others are overlooking is; the psychology of Trump. He is a guy who prides himself on winning and his whole reputation is based on him being a winner. What do we know about these sorts of people? When they lose at sports or in whatever domain, they always claim the result was unjust or stolen from them, they never accept it and its more important to them that their supporters believe that, so they save face and maintain pride/status. So, Trump was always going to be a sore loser and make it seem like the result was unjust. There is a world of difference between that and orchestrating a coup d'etat involving all of the agencies that were against him. I haven't heard one sound argument that addresses this central question around how he was to get these incredibly powerful agencies on board.

Let me make another point; if these agencies were on board (pro Trump, pro coup), then we know the capabilities they have in the media, psychological operations and infrastructure. They had every chance of keeping Trump in power without a coup, by subverting the election process and shaping the minds of the public. It's clear that these agencies were not supporting Trump. The FBI had him up twice in 4 years. The Pentagon were irked by his foreign policy stances. The CIA are experts at swinging elections and subverting democracies all over the globe. 

 

Chris,

Just because Trump didn't have a good plan doesn't mean he didn't have a plan.

I'm rather stunned that you don't know about Trump's coup plot, you being as smart as you are. I believe it is common knowledge among knowledgeable, intelligent Americans. I watched the first January 6 Hearing the other night and wasn't surprised by any of it, except that Bill Barr was so negative toward Trump, and that Ivanka took Barr's side over her father's.

Are you unaware of the fake-elector scheme? Are you unaware that Trump wanted to have the voting machines confiscated in the states he needed to win?

You're apparently unaware of all the unqualified lackeys he appointed his last month in office.

The coup attempt explains everything that happened the last month of Trump's office. The congressional committee/hearings will prove so.

 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Chris,

Trump appointed Barr so that he would write a whitewashed summary of the Mueller Report. Barr was willing to do that. But Barr wasn't willing to go along with Trump's coup plot. That's the reason he quit in the last month of Trump's presidency. He testified in the January 6 Hearings that he told Trump that his voter fraud claims were "bullshit."

 

We can find other reasons for that too. Often when an individual sees the course of history something will take, they will distance themselves from anyone or anything that will impact them negatively (their career). Barr, wouldn't have wanted his legacy to be Trump's loyal servant. He perhaps recognised that throwing Trump under the bus would be a better way to go, these people are ruthless. If he's happy to indulge in the Mueller corruption, then how can we take something latterly as credible? His reputation is tarnished. 

Perhaps if a different case were made, ie Barr was honest on the Mueller thing and was honest about the Trump coup. then it sits better. There is a pattern of integrity. What I think is; we have a man who is a chameleon and can't be trusted. People are willing to believe him now (democrats) because he now opposes the master villain archetype (Trump). 

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Chris,

Just because Trump didn't have a good plan doesn't mean he didn't have a plan.

I'm rather stunned that you don't know about Trump's coup plot, you being as smart as you are. I believe it is common knowledge among knowledgeable, intelligent Americans. I watched the first January 6 Hearing the other night and wasn't surprised by any of it, except that Bill Barr was so negative toward Trump, and that Ivanka took Barr's side over her father's.

Are you unaware of the fake-elector scheme? Are you unaware that Trump wanted to have the voting machines confiscated in the states he needed to win?

You're apparently unaware of all the unqualified lackeys he appointed his last month in office.

The coup attempt explains everything that happened the last month of Trump's office. The congressional committee/hearings will prove so.

But, Sandy, it's so much to lose isn't it? For all those involved in a coup. Billionaires & millionaires wouldn't certainly rather not be doing jail time. It's very very high stakes, why bother with a slap shod plan? A big concern is that the public buy into buffoonery, or coincidences. Your average person thinks because they left the cooker on and almost burned the house down, or had a silly idea where they got caught out, that people worth fortunes who have been astute in business make the same errors. It's clear to me that intelligence comes into this. We don't all have the same set of cards. Some are unbelievable planners and strategists. The idea that Trump had a half-assed plan on a whim to seize power in perpetuity and took on very long odds for a slim chance of success, isn't plausible. Of course, plenty of you have the right to disagree. 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

Yes, he was. That's a fact. Trump's coup plot was a bridge too far for him.

Tell us, what other message boards do you frequent where you opine on things you clearly have no clue about?

Matt, no offence, dude. I just don't think you're on a level here. It would be a waste of my time to get into anything with you. Sorry. 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

¡IMHO!

Paul-

I guess we have to agree to disagree. I do not see right-wing zealots as more, or less, disruptive or divisive to civil discourse than left-wing zealots. 

For every example of a someone carrying a "F...Biden" sign there is a counterpart.  

The 'Phant Party has not been inclusive enough, ever. On the other hand, the Donks play ID politics proactively 24/7. 

The 'Phants used to be the more-censorious party, but now the Donks want to censor social media.

Both parties have succumbed to neo-con, or neo-liberal (the same thing) foreign-trade-military outlooks, destructive to the American middle class.  

The Donks (at least some within) used to be skeptical of state powers, intel agencies and authoritarianism, while the 'Phants worshipped the FBI, CIA, police, etc. Now, the populist wing of the 'Phants are the most skeptical of state police agencies. (Side note: The Donk fawning over the Capitol Police is jaw-dropping to behold.) 

IMHO, I am justified in believing that establishment DC has merged into the purple party, with some social issue window-dressing to divert and divide the public.

¡IMHO!

 

 

 

I know barely anyone wants to see it but, I think we are looking at two arms of the same beast. 

[Sandy Larsen]

Chris,

Trump was doing everything he could think of to stay in power. Several other officials and other professionals were helping him. Everybody knows this. (Don't you?)

There's a taped (!) phone call of Trump -- after Biden had won the election -- trying to pressure Georgia's secretary of state into "finding" 11,780 votes for Trump so he would win that state. (Which he refused to do.)

Trump tried to talk Vice President Pence into blocking the electoral college count. Which was necessary for Biden to take the presidency. Pence refused to do so.

These are just two of the ways Trump used to remain president of the United States. And they are both illegal. Trump did many other things to remain president.

How can you possibly believe that Trump wasn't attempting a coup?

 

 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Chris,

Trump was doing everything he could think of to stay in power. Several other officials and other professionals were helping him. Everybody knows this. (Don't you?)

There's a taped (!) phone call of Trump -- after Biden had won the election -- trying to pressure Georgia's secretary of state into "finding" 11,780 votes for Trump so he would win that state. (Which he refused to do.)

Trump tried to talk Vice President Pence into blocking the electoral college count. Which was necessary for Biden to take the presidency. Pence refused to do so.

These are just two of the ways Trump used to remain president of the United States. And they are both illegal. Trump did many other things to remain president.

How can you possibly believe that Trump wasn't attempting a coup?

 

 

Almost every sitting president does everything they can to stay in power and have a second term, manoeuvring and bending rules. There is no honour amongst thieves, Sandy. We’ve seen tons of corruption in the JFKA research. It indicates a system that is abused and is rotten to its core.
 

What needs to be proven is that a dumb illogical high risk plot by Trump and his acolytes has taken place. Thats all.
For me, it doesn’t fit, for reasons I have already stated. The trouble is, I have no skin in the game, I am able to be dispassionate about it and objective. It’s not possible to be that whilst fuelled by heightened emotions. 
 

I’ve maintained from the start it looks like a psy-op, the way its been presented, propagated and amplified.
 

We’ll see in time. Do you think Trump will be convicted, as well as heads of complicit agencies? 

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Matt, no offence, dude. I just don't think you're on a level here. It would be a waste of my time to get into anything with you. Sorry. 

You don't think Matt is on your level here?  I enjoy his concise responses to your often long diatribes.

[Benjamin Cole]

Put Trump in jail (after a trial, of course). Fine. 

Then what?

After Trump is behind bars, has any aspect of the DC power structure changed? 

Are "insurrection porn" and TDS a substitute for real policies to re-invigorate the American employee and middle classes, and limit US interventionism overseas? 

---30---

Here is a little comic relief: Liz Cheney Likens Jan. 6 'False Flag' Claims to 9/11 'Inside Job' Theory: 'They Are Lies’—Newsweek, 11/7/21

My query: Does Liz Cheney always lie? Does Cheney ever offer anything except narratives? 

https://www.newsweek.com/liz-cheney-groups-jan-6-false-flag-claims-9-11-inside-job-theory-1646760

 

[Sandy Larsen]

14 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said:

Almost every sitting president does everything they can to stay in power and have a second term, manoeuvring and bending rules.

 

That's not the case in the United States. Only Donald Trump has tried to stay in power after losing an election.

 

14 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said:

What needs to be proven is that a dumb illogical high risk plot by Trump and his acolytes has taken place. Thats all.

 

That's right!

The purpose of the plot was for Trump to take power from the duly elected president, Joseph Biden. Had he succeeded, that would constitute a coup. Since he failed, it was an attempted coup.

 

14 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said:

I’ve maintained from the start it looks like a psy-op, the way its been presented, propagated and amplified.

 

A psy-op by whom?

Did that entity trick Trump into pressuring the Georgia secretary of state into finding 11,000 votes for him?

Did that entity trick Trump into trying to talk Vice President Pence into blocking the electoral college count?

Did that entity trick the fake electors into doing what they did? Did it fake Rudy Giuliani into doing his role? Did it fake William Barr and Mike Pence into testifying against Trump?

 

14 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said:

Do you think Trump will be convicted, as well as heads of complicit agencies? 

 

The plot didn't go far enough to involve the heads of the agencies, because VP Pence refused to block the electoral college count.

As for Trump, no I don't think he will ever go to trial. Because those in  power will fear that his conviction would spark riots among Trump supporters. And there are far too many of them who are armed and dangerous.

I personally hope Trump doesn't go to trial for that reason, and also because if he is acquitted a large portion of the population will think he did nothing wrong. Of course, history books will report the truth and Trump will go down in history as the most corrupt politician in American history.

 

[Ron Bulman]

18 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

There is massive hole in your logic here. I’ll ask again; How was this rabble going to take over the Pentagon, CIA, NSA, FBI, etc etc? Agencies that aren’t pro Trump. 

I believe the Military and CIA in theory answer to the president as Commander In Chief.  The FBI does so by being a part of the criminal justice system overseen by the attorney general, appointed by the president.  Not sure about the NSA. 

If Pence and others in congress had chosen to submit to trumph and the capitol invaders, certification invalidated, he could well have been the acting president until the issue was settled.  He would have still controlled these agencies.  Thankfully Milley, Barr, Pence and others chose to honor their oath to uphold the constitution over submitting to the will of a insane president.

What if a trumph had a nixon for a veep in this situation?  What would nixon have done?

Without accountability now, it's a realistic possibility in the future.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

I believe the Military and CIA in theory answer to the president as Commander In Chief.  The FBI does so by being a part of the criminal justice system overseen by the attorney general, appointed by the president.  Not sure about the NSA. 

If Pence and others in congress had chosen to submit to trumph and the capitol invaders, certification invalidated, he could well have been the acting president until the issue was settled.  He would have still controlled these agencies.  Thankfully Milley, Barr, Pence and others chose to honor their oath to uphold the constitution over submitting to the will of a insane president.

What if a trumph had a nixon for a veep in this situation?  What would nixon have done?

Without accountability now, it's a realistic possibility in the future.

Hey Ron, I think we are talking about an exceptional circumstance if a coup did take place. Would the allegiance be to the flag and constitution, or to a man who had dishonoured the constitution and democratic values? Ultimately, the media would have the biggest sway, as they control / shape public opinion. Whenever the CIA do a psy-op abroad, controlling the media / propaganda is crucial. 
 

You also have the possibility of civil war / conflict ensuing. Would Mr T want to put himself in the position of being at that level of physical risk? Or spending the rest of his years in a cell? It all seems far too high stakes for a guy who wants to keep his wealth and position in a hierarchy. For him to do this and others, you have to assume a level of mental illness, I don’t see that. I know I am against the tide and wind here on the forum. 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

A psy-op by whom?

Did that entity trick Trump into pressuring the Georgia secretary of state into finding 11,000 votes for him?

Did that entity trick Trump into trying to talk Vice President Pence into blocking the electoral college count?

Did that entity trick the fake electors into doing what they did? Did it fake Rudy Giuliani into doing his role? Did it fake William Barr and Mike Pence into testifying against Trump?

I think its more simple than that. Protests were planned, the whole security apparatus knew this and had ample opportunity to use agent provocateurs. The event happened. Its easy to incite mobs and there was a violent reaction and break in, including fatalities. The media campaign could have said “protests turns bad, Capitol building was entered, politicians evacuated etc”. Instead stories ran making this event seem on a par with Pearl Harbour or 9/11. The propaganda was very similar. It radicalised the population and as a result, government starts ramping up the use of the “domestic terrorist” rhetoric, which now supposedly justifies anyone speaking against the state, as a possible domestic terrorist. This is a really bad thing for your society, a further increase in state control of the citizenry. 9/11 had the same impact internationally, with the state justifying detaining people indefinitely without trial. This 1/6 has meant they can now do similar domestically, as consent has been manufactured by the media. What I am saying is; this has been used for a purpose. These agencies and government have benefitted from this. The citizenry hasn’t. 

 

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

The plot didn't go far enough to involve the heads of the agencies, because VP Pence refused to block the electoral college count

There is no way you’d take such a risk without having assurances that the security apparatus and military would support you. The reality is you spend the rest of your days in prison. Its madness. 
 

We’ll see what is smoke and mirrors and hopefully this won’t be another fait accompli. I cast my mind back to reading about the Mayor Daley and Nixon spin on protests. 
 

I just think for the anti-Republican / Trump, its far too emotionally charged to have an objective conclusion. Perhaps the other side are the same.