Anyone care to disprove this throat shot scientific theory from the South Knoll?

[Ron Bulman]

On 11/30/2020 at 8:44 PM, Matt Allison said:

This is a section enlargement from a photo that included the south knoll near the underpass corner, taken immediately after the shooting.

I think I've seen this here on this site before, no idea what thread.   If I remember right there was speculation that's a man standing to the right of the tree holding a rifle at a 45% angle.  That he had used the thin tree to lean on to stabilize his shot and for "cover".   The tree offered little cover and I couldn't imagine a shooter standing erect with his gun at that angle immediately after a shot.  Like badegeman it's a little too blurry to say anything with confidence though I do not dismiss a South knoll shot out of hand.  jmo.

Edited June 10, 2021 by Ron Bulman

[Guest]

On 6/10/2021 at 3:42 AM, Ron Bulman said:

I think I've seen this here on this site before, no idea what thread.   If I remember right there was speculation that's a man standing to the right of the tree holding a rifle at a 45% angle.  That he had used the thin tree to lean on to stabilize his shot and for "cover".   The tree offered little cover and I couldn't imagine a shooter standing erect with his gun at that angle immediately after a shot.  Like badegeman it's a little too blurry to say anything with confidence though I do not dismiss a South knoll shot out of hand.  jmo.

That image always looks too vague to me. 

[Adam Johnson]

Q: What is the most logical explanation as to how an object could have caused this damage to the back of the limousines rear vision mirror during the Dealey Plaza assassination?

A: The back of the rear vision mirror was struck by an object bouncing back off the windscreen glass with force. 

Therefore the object must have entered the limousine travelling from the rear towards the front of the vehicle.

If only there was evidence an object struck the windscreen.    Whats that?   No!

You mean there are photographs showing a strike on the windscreen with a clear contact point and radiating cracks. Two photos while the car was still on Elm St. No, this cant be.

Follow Up:

If you have damage to the back of the rear vision mirror .... and you except the most logical way it was caused was by a bullet bouncing back off the windscreen. 

You have just eliminated a frontal south knoll shot thru the windscreen into JFK's throat.

 

Have a nice day. 🙂 Your welcome. 

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Adam Johnson
Photo adjustment

[Tony Krome]

3 hours ago, Adam Johnson said:

Q: What is the most logical explanation as to how an object could have caused this damage to the back of the limousines rear vision mirror during the Dealey Plaza assassination?

A: The back of the rear vision mirror was struck by an object bouncing back off the windscreen glass with force. 

Therefore the object must have entered the limousine travelling from the rear towards the front of the vehicle.

If only there was evidence an object struck the windscreen.    Whats that?   No!

You mean there are photographs showing a strike on the windscreen with a clear contact point and radiating cracks. Two photos while the car was still on Elm St. No, this cant be.

Follow Up:

If you have damage to the back of the rear vision mirror .... and you except the most logical way it was caused was by a bullet bouncing back off the windscreen. 

You have just eliminated a frontal south knoll shot thru the windscreen into JFK's throat.

 

Have a nice day. 🙂 Your welcome. 

 

What damage you are referring to in you're circle?

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Tony Krome

[Adam Johnson]

Provenance Tony please.

 

Thanks,

Adam.

[Adam Johnson]

Whilst your rear vision mirror is definitely the same model as the unit in GG300, gunna need an amazing story to varify it was the unit in dallas limo on 22/11/63.

Moving past that, the white house garage image shows that the rear vision mirror has clearly buckled above the selector switches to the first bevelled line.....your photo clearly shows what that finish should be.....in the white house garage photo that section has been dented.

Regards,

Adam

 

[Tony Krome]

28 minutes ago, Adam Johnson said:

Moving past that, the white house garage image shows that the rear vision mirror has clearly buckled above the selector switches to the first bevelled line.....your photo clearly shows what that finish should be.....in the white house garage photo that section has been dented.

Analysing reflective surfaces is very subjective. What seems like a dent could be various reflected shades. For instance, the shadow of the mirror mount stem could account for the dark streak at the arrow. The camera flash can also account for the lighter patch above the selectors, due to that area being at the apex of the rear mirror housing curve, and would then be most likely to reflect directly back to the camera lens.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Tony Krome

[Adam Johnson]

Hi Tony,

The mirror in your post, that picture is it from the 1963 Presidential limo?

Edited June 18, 2021 by Adam Johnson

[Tony Krome]

Its a mirror out of a Lincoln Continental that matches the one installed on the JFK limo.

 

[Ron Bulman]

Regarding the south knoll shot, I know others have offered reasons for what I can't reconciliate, back and to the left from that angle.  I need to re read Sherry Fister but I've been there and looked.   I never had physics in college.  But looking from the south end of the overpass or the Post office parking lot, back and to the left in the Zapruder film seems impossible   

[Adam Johnson]

Hi Ron, I've been there a few times myself. On one trip to Dallas i was really only interested in whether the throat shot at Z223-Z225 came from the south knoll.

Its really the only shot i honestly believe may have been able to be made from that area during the assassination, because of what we see on Zapruder, Nix and Bell films.

I spent 2 or 3 hours up there on two consecutive days watching cars roll down Elm Street from about a dozen possible shooting positions. The second day was sunny and clear and i made sure i was there from 11:30am untill about 2pm.

My conclusion was the shot couldnt have been taken from up on the triple underpass Commerce Street section or the downward sloping exit section of the walkway. 

I decided if a shot came from the South knoll it had to have come from the postal annex building parking area in the north western most corner area. Even then i believe it would have to have been fired from 4 to 8 feet above the ground level. I dont think lying prone on the ground at the wire fence line would have been a good option.

So if i was gunna fire from there, i would have been in the back seat of a car firing out one of the windows or in the back of a truck or in the back of a tray back truck parked in that north western corner...take my one shot and be gone asap.

My reasoning is I'm never going to fire from over the South Knoll and have my round have to go thru the limo windscreen to hit my target, by moving further to the right into the carpark area and by adding some additional elevation to my firing position i would take the windscreen and passengers out of the equation.  Then it was just a timing, distance and windspeed evaluation and make your shot. This shot, then has difficulties but not impossibilities. 

Even after all these years reading books and forums and watching YouTube videos i trust my eyes and my experiences more then anything else and by physically walking Dealey Plaza the above details are what i believe would have been possible. Whether that is what took place, i dont know. 

Some of David Joseph's posts, some autopsy info and David Liftons video tapped interviews have lead me to question my initial belief's and look at this frontal shot possibility. 

The bruised right lung, the undamaged pluera matter around the right lung, the reported search of a downward bullet track thru JFK's body that was stopped at the autopsy are all things i cannot reconcile that point to a possible front to back trajectory for the throat wound. 

However I'm still 80%/20% that the throat wound was a back to front trajectory and the round continued on past John Connelly's left shoulder and ear and struck the inside of the limousines windscreen. 

Wow, i feel clean again.

Stay safe everyone,  wear a mask, wash your hands often. 

Adam.

[Chris Bristow]

44 minutes ago, Adam Johnson said:

Hi Ron, I've been there a few times myself. On one trip to Dallas i was really only interested in whether the throat shot at Z223-Z225 came from the south knoll.

Its really the only shot i honestly believe may have been able to be made from that area during the assassination, because of what we see on Zapruder, Nix and Bell films.

I spent 2 or 3 hours up there on two consecutive days watching cars roll down Elm Street from about a dozen possible shooting positions. The second day was sunny and clear and i made sure i was there from 11:30am untill about 2pm.

My conclusion was the shot couldnt have been taken from up on the triple underpass Commerce Street section or the downward sloping exit section of the walkway. 

I decided if a shot came from the South knoll it had to have come from the postal annex building parking area in the north western most corner area. Even then i believe it would have to have been fired from 4 to 8 feet above the ground level. I dont think lying prone on the ground at the wire fence line would have been a good option.

So if i was gunna fire from there, i would have been in the back seat of a car firing out one of the windows or in the back of a truck or in the back of a tray back truck parked in that north western corner...take my one shot and be gone asap.

My reasoning is I'm never going to fire from over the South Knoll and have my round have to go thru the limo windscreen to hit my target, by moving further to the right into the carpark area and by adding some additional elevation to my firing position i would take the windscreen and passengers out of the equation.  Then it was just a timing, distance and windspeed evaluation and make your shot. This shot, then has difficulties but not impossibilities. 

Even after all these years reading books and forums and watching YouTube videos i trust my eyes and my experiences more then anything else and by physically walking Dealey Plaza the above details are what i believe would have been possible. Whether that is what took place, i dont know. 

Some of David Joseph's posts, some autopsy info and David Liftons video tapped interviews have lead me to question my initial belief's and look at this frontal shot possibility. 

The bruised right lung, the undamaged pluera matter around the right lung, the reported search of a downward bullet track thru JFK's body that was stopped at the autopsy are all things i cannot reconcile that point to a possible front to back trajectory for the throat wound. 

However I'm still 80%/20% that the throat wound was a back to front trajectory and the round continued on past John Connelly's left shoulder and ear and struck the inside of the limousines windscreen. 

Wow, i feel clean again.

Stay safe everyone,  wear a mask, wash your hands often. 

Adam.

A truck backed into the north most parking spots sure would be a great place to hide and egress from. To shoot over the windshield would require an increase in elevation of 20 ft so I don't see that as an option. If you move east to shoot around the windshield you would have to stand in the center of/behind the colonnade on south Commerce. The only shot from the south knoll is through the windshield and I don't know if snipers shoot through windshields. One big problem is the bullet would deflect down by a couple degrees. That would mean the throat shot would have to come from a place 15 feet lower than the parking lot. I see no real cover down on the Commerce sidewalk and almost none under the commerce underpass walkway. 
 The head shot does line up with JFK very well. His head at 25 degrees right as seen in the Z film would allow for the temple shot and right occipital exit wound. The shooter would have to shoot within 5 feet of the Franzen family when the bullet would be only 4 feet off the ground but there is a shot to be taken.

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, Adam Johnson said:

My reasoning is I'm never going to fire from over the South Knoll and have my round have to go thru the limo windscreen to hit my target

Lets say you are the shooter. You are in you're assigned South Knoll area early and its raining;

They are paying you to shoot the president right through the head, and you have no idea if the bubble-top will be covering your target before you arrive at you're shooting location. You're location was chosen for a shot over the windscreen.

The limo appears, and it has the bubble-top on.

Do you take the shot?

[Adam Johnson]

Tony, no i wouldn't,  back in 63 I'm sure most outsiders would assume that the bubble top was bullet proof. However whoever was running the show would have known the bubble top was on when JFK left love field.  By the time the parade hit Dealey Plaza a go or no go regarding the bubble top would have been already made and passed on to shooting teams. 

Hi Chris, wow 20ft above the limo or ground level in the parking area?  sure didnt look like I'd need to be 20ft higher then ground level when standing in that parking lot.

Adam.

[Tony Krome]

10 hours ago, Adam Johnson said:

Tony, no i wouldn't

From a planning perspective, to ensure the assassination from the South Knoll area, they would not place you at that elevation to begin with. The planners would regard the bubble-top as a variable. The windscreen is non-variable. The shooter is below you.