JFK's Limo Windshield from National Archives---No Holes Barred

[John Butler]

15 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

John. when the limo is turning onto Elm the trajectory moves across the TSB but I don't think it gets as high as the second floor. When it is still in the intersection the limo is level. It does not start down the Elm slope till after the crosswalk. It is hard to tell just exactly where Elm gets to a full 3.5 degrees slope but from the intersection there is no shot from the Triple overpass. The angle from the windshield hole to JFK's would be about 3 degrees and extending that angle to the overpass puts it  around 30 feet above the tracks.  Very rough estimate.

Chris,

So, you found no fault with the 15 inch projection from the intersection and Z frame 160.  That's very interesting.  When the p. limo starts down hill it is the crosswalk area which would be about Z frame 1 or 2.  Here is Z frame 2 which indicates the 3 degree slope starts at the corner of the SW corner area at the where the support for the cross street signs is located.

Would that lower the angle from this position?  Could you give a best guess at what that 3 degree angle would be at Z 160? 

In order for a shot to be from a train on the railroad bridge the shot would more than likely be made from 7 to 8 feet above the height of the railroad bridge at Main St. or Commerce.  The height of the railroad bridge is a known number but, since I can't find that on google anymore someone else needs to post it.   The distance from Z frame 1 or 2 is for Elm and Commerce are about the same 494 and from Houston to Main St at the bridge 425 feet. 

Why 7 or 8 feet?  The height of the average train is 14 ft. to 16 ft.  

Edited October 26, 2020 by John Butler

[John Butler]

3 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Where McHugh was supposed to be...  and where he was in other motorcades...  used the rear view mirror as guide.
Shot can’t happen from the south if he’s still there...

David,

Thanks for that post.  If I read you correctly you are saying a shot from the South Knoll can be ruled out.  You are using Altgens 6 here which is believed to be at Z 255 or so.  One second down from where Chris is using Z 225.  

 

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

David,

Thanks for that post.  If I read you correctly you are saying a shot from the South Knoll can be ruled out.  You are using Altgens 6 here which is believed to be at Z 255 or so.  One second down from where Chris is using Z 225.  

 

And, things get stranger.

This projection is very different from the first.  The first try points one to the middle of the railroad bridge to the southern end.  (That may be an illusion of magnification in that photo)  The second points one to the north end of the bridge.  These projections point to shooting from the Grassy Knoll or from the railroad bridge further west.  

And, I don't know why.  Might be the magnification of both photos? 

This fits the Accepted Story better than a shot from the South Knoll. 

Any shooting from within the Zapruder Gap would fall between those two lines.

Edited October 26, 2020 by John Butler

[David Josephs]

19 hours ago, John Butler said:

David,

Thanks for that post.  If I read you correctly you are saying a shot from the South Knoll can be ruled out.  You are using Altgens 6 here which is believed to be at Z 255 or so.  One second down from where Chris is using Z 225.  

 

The opposite John.   McHugh was removed from where he usually sits... which would have been in the way of a southern thru windshield shot...

Imagine on right is his usual spot...

[Paul Jolliffe]

38 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

The opposite John.   McHugh was removed from where he usually sits... which would have been in the way of a southern thru windshield shot...

Imagine on right is his usual spot...

David,

I mentioned this in the other thread on this same topic, but:

Why would a professional sniper deliberately plan a shot through a slanted windshield on a moving vehicle (a vehicle whose precise, exact location could not be pinpointed in advance), knowing the real risk of deflection? After all, the president was several feet behind the windshield, and a deflecting round might have gone anywhere. If a bullet did both 1. go through the windshield, and 2. strike the president, then it was a lucky shot. 

Why would a professional sniper have designed such a tricky and unnecessarily difficult shot, one that (from the conspirators point of view) failed? After all, after the throat shot, not only was President Kennedy NOT dead, he was not even unconscious!

To me, this is evidence that the throat shot was not intended to penetrate the windshield first, and may not have passed through the windshield at all.

 

[David Josephs]

1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Why would a professional sniper deliberately plan a shot through a slanted windshield on a moving vehicle (a vehicle whose precise, exact location could not be pinpointed in advance), knowing the real risk of deflection?

You make a great point Paul, yet asking Why? doesn’t change the evidence of a hole...

Trying to ascertain the thinking behind actions that day... idk.

Why then do you think McHugh was moved from his customary front-middle position, and why the impact just happens to be directly in LOS to JFK from the SW?

Seems to me someone knew something would be coming from the front, and the South...

[David Josephs]

1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Why would a professional sniper have designed such a tricky and unnecessarily difficult shot

https://www.bevfitchett.us/sniper-training-2/shooting-through-glass.html
 

[Paul Jolliffe]

David,

We agree that there is evidence of a hole in the windshield, and we agree that the president suffered an entry wound to his throat.

 

And, it is possible that those two events are related:  the president's throat wound may (MAY) have been caused by a round that first penetrated the windshield.

However, even if that's true, I find it incredible that a professional sniper would have deliberately planned the shot that way. That shot would have been very difficult and highly likely to fail - which from the conspirators viewpoint, it did! JFK was still very much alive!

It is possible a sniper somewhere on or near the South Knoll planned a windshield shot to kill JFK, and it is possible that the sniper came close. However, shooting over or around the windshield would seem much easier.

So, while nothing is impossible, a deliberate shot through the windshield from the South Knoll seems mighty unlikely.

[Paul Jolliffe]

13 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

https://www.bevfitchett.us/sniper-training-2/shooting-through-glass.html
 

Fascinating article!

 

Note, however the clear caveat about shooting through glass directly straight on: don't shoot at an angle!

"To minimize this effect, it's best to shoot dead-on, as close to perpendicular to the glass surface as possible."

And:

"My knowledgeable sniper friend Neal Terry believes that in addition to firing perpendicular to the glass surface and aiming for the largest target area on the suspect, it's best to shoot when the suspect is as close to the glass as possible, both to reduce the possibility that deflection could cause a miss and to lessen the danger to hostages from secondary missiles."

Our (presumed South Knoll) sniper, intentionally picked a spot from which the shot would be angled, but JFK would be at least six feet from the glass, compounding the degree of difficulty.

I don't know what to make of the fact that Godfrey McHugh was not seated between Roy Kellerman and William Greer. That may be significant, but more research is needed.

 

[David Josephs]

6 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Our (presumed South Knoll) sniper, intentionally picked a spot from which the shot would be angled, but JFK would be at least six feet from the glass, compounding the degree of difficulty.

Again, great point...  yet depending on exactly where a shooter was... “straight on” was not that much of a stretch.  The truck and back up Elm a bit appears almost straight on from this south knoll vantage...

fwiw
 

[David Josephs]

 

15 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

I don't know what to make of the fact that Godfrey McHugh was not seated between Roy Kellerman and William Greer. That may be significant, but more research is needed

Found this in my files...

Ralph Martin’s Seeds of Destruction: Joe Kennedy and His Sons (1995), p. 453 [see also the Spring 1998 issue of “KAC”-article by author]: In regard to the preparations for the 11/22/63 Dallas trip, General Godfrey McHugh is quoted as saying: “They’d asked me, for the first time, to please not ride in the President’s car, because they want to give him full exposure. These are the exact words they used. Ken O’Donnell and the Secret Service said, 'the politicians here feel it's most important for the President to be given full exposure, to be seen coming and going...[McHugh said he normally rode in the car in which JFK was a passenger] “in the front, next to the driver, and [I] would take notes.” (emphasis added)

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

39 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

You make a great point Paul, yet asking Why? doesn’t change the evidence of a hole...

Trying to ascertain the thinking behind actions that day... idk.

Why then do you think McHugh was moved from his customary front-middle position, and why the impact just happens to be directly in LOS to JFK from the SW?

Seems to me someone knew something would be coming from the front, and the South...

David,

That is an intriguing picture!

So Tosh Plumlee believed in 1981 that three shots had originated from the South Knoll, but that at least three of them had missed!

He referred to Gary Shaw's book (presumably "Cover Up" from 1976). I've never seen a copy. Is this picture modified from some WC exhibit? Who put the three white blobs in just above the kill zone?

 

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

10 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

 

Found this in my files...

Ralph Martin’s Seeds of Destruction: Joe Kennedy and His Sons (1995), p. 453 [see also the Spring 1998 issue of “KAC”-article by author]: In regard to the preparations for the 11/22/63 Dallas trip, General Godfrey McHugh is quoted as saying: “They’d asked me, for the first time, to please not ride in the President’s car, because they want to give him full exposure. These are the exact words they used. Ken O’Donnell and the Secret Service said, 'the politicians here feel it's most important for the President to be given full exposure, to be seen coming and going...[McHugh said he normally rode in the car in which JFK was a passenger] “in the front, next to the driver, and [I] would take notes.” (emphasis added)

 

Hmm.

I realize this was not your point, but I doubt anyone here seriously believes that Ken O'Donnell was a witting participant in a the plot to assassinate JFK.

This is not to dismiss McHugh's recollection, merely to point out that it's likely that the conspirators benefitted from such a seating arrangement, rather than caused it in the first place. 

Was there a conspirator close to JFK who learned of the "politicians" decision to keep McHugh out of the front seat, and who then relayed that intelligence on to snipers?

Maybe. (My personal candidates include McGeorge Bundy and, via his brother Walt, Eugene Rostow.)

Godfrey McHugh had no love for LBJ, and certainly did not want to seem him become president. McHugh was one of the first of the Kennedy Administration officials to be let go by LBJ, just days after the funeral.

"They had two hours and 12 minutes together to mourn their fallen leader and create a new government. Inside the 153-foot-long fuselage, with little privacy and limited communication with the outside world, loyalties evolved and careers began—and ended. Before the plane had even left the ground, that sorting-out began: Godfrey McHugh’s distinguished military career would never recover from his grief-stricken “I have only one President” comment made to Malcolm Kilduff. Within days, McHugh would be among the first staff cut from the Johnson White House."

https://www.washingtonian.com/projects/JFK-AF1/layout2.html#.X5g8L4hKg2w

 

[David Josephs]

7 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

David,

That is an intriguing picture!

So Tosh Plumlee believed in 1981 that three shots had originated from the South Knoll, but that at least three of them had missed!

He referred to Gary Shaw's book (presumably "Cover Up" from 1976). I've never seen a copy. Is this picture modified from some WC exhibit? Who put the three white blobs in just above the kill zone?

 

 

From my understanding Tosh is the source for everything on that image....

Says right on it that those dots would be where bullets were lodged in the grass... if a shooter was exactly where he put him.

"3=white dots....."  and finally I had posted this before, (there were a few at Parkland who described a left side wound to the head... )

While I have all the arrows pointing to the right temple, what this focused on was how far to the south JFK was facing between the z frames 200 and 350.

[Paul Jolliffe]

David,

What's the yellow line? It's not the path of the limo, is it? It doesn't match up with the kill spot (the confluence of the red arrows.)

Just to my eyeballs, the best straight-on shot would seem to be from the south side of the overpass, rather than the South Knoll. (But that does not rule it out.)

If firing from the south side of the overpass, could a sniper shoot over (rather than through) the windshield and hit the president? I honestly don't know - is such a shot possible?

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dealey+Plaza/@32.7781361,-96.809435,25a,35y,33.75h,71.46t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0xcfa47bf25b709fe0!8m2!3d32.7788184!4d-96.8082993