The wallet at the Tippit scene: a simpler solution?

[Michael Kalin]

18 hours ago, Donald Willis said:

Michael -- There are, yes, reasons to question the testimony of both Scoggins and Callaway.  The latter seemed only too eager to get along with the police, and to badmouth both Scoggins & Benavides.  While Scoggins was compromised by the apparent fact that he had seen the killer and knew that it wasn't Oswald.  Hence the story--which I believe he was spoon-fed--that he didn't stay at the scene and talk to police.  That was supposed to be the explanation as to why he didn't attend any of the Friday lineups--the cops couldn't get in touch with him.  But, as I noted, there was a follow-up by Scoggins in his testimony, in which he went with one or two cops in a 2nd (or 3rd) search for the killer.  And that is supported by the FBI guy Barrett's seeing that Scoggins' cab was still there some 15 minutes after it would have been had he left for the taxi office immediately after returning to the scene with Callaway.  

Donald -- this is persuasive, but I don't see why it was necessary to spoon feed Scoggins anything at such an early time. Being "compromised by the apparent fact that he had seen the killer and knew that it wasn't Oswald" hardly amounts to more than grounds for penciling in for future attention. What did he know (or do) that required immediate suppression?

I think leaving the scene a second time also precludes Scoggins from the role of Summers' "eye witness to the shooting" whom he kept at the scene, and either of his two witnesses, "one that talked with the officer and one that observed the man." He is otherwise a solid candidate.

The reason for on-the-spot remediation must have been compelling, much more so, for example, than something like a refusal to back off from a claim that the murder weapon was an automatic, which got out anyway.

Hill might have had Scoggins in the car at 12th & Beckley, but what use was he if he would not identify Oswald as the killer? By 1:44 Hill was back at the scene making noise about shaking down the Abundant Life Temple, broadcast on channel 2. Do they relate?

Patience, this is a complicated scenario.

[Donald Willis]

17 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Good points on your second paragraph Donald. Maybe you're right.

On the criterion that the wallet is associated with the Tippit revolver (because it is so in the WFAA footage), Scoggins fits that as well as Callaway and Holmes, there at the handover of the Tippit revolver to Croy. So Scoggins is at the right time and place such that it could be his.

And if there was initial police suspicion of Scoggins as a possible suspect--as the quote from Croy says, if Croy has that right--could that cause police to, what, maybe even frisk him and/or take his wallet from his person to look through? To see what was there, on a possible suspect?

I have no idea whether that would even be technically legal or was usual police procedure, but this was 1963 and Dallas and police arriving to a fallen officer with no idea what happened ... could be. Officers took Oswald's wallet out of his pocket in the patrol car driving from the Texas Theatre, so there's a parallel to officers holding someone's wallet in their hands, going through it looking for ID or whatever else was there.

Maybe I've been looking at the wrong guy, Callaway, when it was the other one, the driver, Scoggins, whose wallet that was when they returned with Tippit's revolver?

It hangs together, makes sense. I'm not sure Callaway is excluded but I can see it now with Scoggins as easily as Callaway at this point, thanks to you. Excellent bringing that out! Thanks!!!

~ ~ ~

Separately, I think the part about Scoggins taking off in a police car after returning from the excursion with Callaway and the Tippit revolver--I think that is a mistaken interpretation of the sense of Scoggins' meaning in his WC testimony in the quotation you give. 

I rechecked Gerald Hill's WC testimony and he doesn't say anything about giving Scoggins a ride (Hill did not have a patrol car of his own there as I read it). And there is Scoggins' denial. Below is the quotation you cite, with attention to the second of three bolded lines below. As I read it, I don't think Scoggins is saying he went off with a police officer after he returned with Callaway. He is trying to explain when he saw Mrs. Markham talking to a police officer. That was after he returned with Callaway to the scene. 

I agree its a little confusing in the second bolded line but I am reading that as a restatement of the first and the third bolded lines, three ways of saying the same thing, all followed by (his point he is trying to say) he saw Helen Markham talking to an officer after that one thing told three ways. 

So I don't think its correct that Scoggins got in a police car for a second trip looking for the fleeing gunman, and that police, such as Hill, covered up that they drove Scoggins around. Its just a misunderstanding.

Mr. BELIN. Before you saw Mrs. Markham the other day, did you ever recognize her as having seen her from the time of the Tippit shooting at all or not? 
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, I saw her down there talking to the policemen after I came back. You see, I saw her talking to them. 
Mr. BELIN. You never actually saw her standing on the street, did you? 
Mr. SCOGGINS. I never actually observed her there. 
Mr. BELIN. All right. 
Mr. DULLES. When you say, "I came back" is that when you got into your car? 
Mr. SCOGGINS. After I had got in the car and toured the neighborhood and then the policemen came along and I left my cab setting down there and got in a car with them and left the scene. 
Mr. DULLES. At what stage did you see Mrs. Markham? 
Mr. SCOGGINS. After I had gotten back up there. After I had drove around in the neighborhood looking for Oswald or looking for this guy. 
Mr. DULLES. It was after that? 
Mr. SCOGGINS. It was after that. 

(Discussion off the record.)  

Scoggins & Callaway often seem interchangeable, mainly thanks to Mr. S&C's Wild Ride.  For instance, the Holmes/Wheless story has someone resembling Mrs Markham shouting, as the cab leaves, something like "He's the killer!"  So is she referring to Scoggins or Callaway?  Either way, if the tale is true, it certainly calls into question her lineup ID of Oswald, who was everywhere that day, it seems, but not in Scoggins' cab!

And I see your point about Scoggins perhaps simply repeating his same statement three times.  They do sound similar.  But the one word which doesn't fit that interpretation is the "them" in "got in a car with them".  Perhaps he misspoke.  At any rate, his Version Two in his testimony, which you quote above (and thank you for the clarifying bold type), is still possible since Version One (Scoggins went right back to HQ at about 1:24) is scotched by Barrett's noticing his cab still at the Tippit scene at 1:42.  He didn't go right back to HQ.  He at least stuck around to let the cops check his wallet and tell them that he knew Tippit.  I know that Dale Myers says that Harold Russell was Sgt. Hill's witness in the car with him at 1:26, but Russell did not attend a lineup, and he was further away from the suspect when he saw him than was Scoggins.  Russell is a possibility, but still less likely than Scoggins.  Or for that matter the interchangeable Callaway!

 

[Michael Kalin]

Harold Russell is a poor choice for the man in Hill's car at 12th & Beckley. He never left the scene with the officers. After leaving them he "went in a nearby drug store," probably Skillern's & Sons on Crawford.

Hill at 12th & Beckley was well outside the general murder area, including all the sundry cab ride routes described by Callaway & Scoggins. It is also the location of the sheriff's substation. This was not a coincidence. My guess is he was waiting on Decker's men to deliver a suspect apprehended at the library. At this time it was swarming with armed law men. We'll never know how close Adrian Hamby came to grief, saved by Secret Service men who were not supposed to be there.

Hill is not to be trusted on any count. Some years ago Gokay Hasan Yusuf convincingly argued in a CTKA article (now Kennedys & King), Gerald Hill and the Framing of Lee Harvey Oswald, that Hill left TSBD in Valentine's car #207. This article is long but worth reading in full.

So is Bill Simpich's shorter article, Jerry Hill’s lies: the heart of the J.D. Tippit shooting.

I see no reason to believe Hill actually had an eyewitness on board. He was desperately seeking the patsy who had briefly slipped through the net put out to trap him, and the promise of a "man in the car with me that can identify the suspect" was a way of calling attention to himself.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Michael Kalin

[Bill Brown]

17 hours ago, Donald Willis said:

Scoggins & Callaway often seem interchangeable, mainly thanks to Mr. S&C's Wild Ride.  For instance, the Holmes/Wheless story has someone resembling Mrs Markham shouting, as the cab leaves, something like "He's the killer!"  So is she referring to Scoggins or Callaway?  Either way, if the tale is true, it certainly calls into question her lineup ID of Oswald, who was everywhere that day, it seems, but not in Scoggins' cab!

And I see your point about Scoggins perhaps simply repeating his same statement three times.  They do sound similar.  But the one word which doesn't fit that interpretation is the "them" in "got in a car with them".  Perhaps he misspoke.  At any rate, his Version Two in his testimony, which you quote above (and thank you for the clarifying bold type), is still possible since Version One (Scoggins went right back to HQ at about 1:24) is scotched by Barrett's noticing his cab still at the Tippit scene at 1:42.  He didn't go right back to HQ.  He at least stuck around to let the cops check his wallet and tell them that he knew Tippit.  I know that Dale Myers says that Harold Russell was Sgt. Hill's witness in the car with him at 1:26, but Russell did not attend a lineup, and he was further away from the suspect when he saw him than was Scoggins.  Russell is a possibility, but still less likely than Scoggins.  Or for that matter the interchangeable Callaway!

 

 

"I know that Dale Myers says that Harold Russell was Sgt. Hill's witness in the car with him at 1:26, but Russell did not attend a lineup, and he was further away from the suspect when he saw him than was Scoggins.  Russell is a possibility, but still less likely than Scoggins.  Or for that matter the interchangeable Callaway!"

 

No.

 

The witness in the patrol car with Hill was indeed Harold Russell.  This comes from Russell himself in a February 1964 interview with the FBI.

 

[Donald Willis]

On 9/25/2023 at 1:41 PM, Michael Kalin said:

Donald -- this is persuasive, but I don't see why it was necessary to spoon feed Scoggins anything at such an early time. Being "compromised by the apparent fact that he had seen the killer and knew that it wasn't Oswald" hardly amounts to more than grounds for penciling in for future attention. What did he know (or do) that required immediate suppression?

I think leaving the scene a second time also precludes Scoggins from the role of Summers' "eye witness to the shooting" whom he kept at the scene, and either of his two witnesses, "one that talked with the officer and one that observed the man." He is otherwise a solid candidate.

The reason for on-the-spot remediation must have been compelling, much more so, for example, than something like a refusal to back off from a claim that the murder weapon was an automatic, which got out anyway.

Hill might have had Scoggins in the car at 12th & Beckley, but what use was he if he would not identify Oswald as the killer? By 1:44 Hill was back at the scene making noise about shaking down the Abundant Life Temple, broadcast on channel 2. Do they relate?

Patience, this is a complicated scenario.

Indeed, it is, what with inconsistent witnesses, contradictory testimony, suppressed evidence, etc.  I did have an alternate scenario for the Temple angle, but can't find it now.  At any rate, the 12th & Beckley scenario seems move viable.  All we know for sure is that Hill radioed from there, and his witness was either Scoggins  or Harold Russell, both of whom I believe said that they took a ride with a cop or two.  Callaway's reference (in one of his versions of the chase) mentions Beckley, so I go along with that one.  

Of course Scoggins is of no use to the police if he won't ID Oswald.  Hence the 24 hours it took for them to get him to a lineup and, finally, ID him, although, as he says, he was with the police early in the afternoon on 11/22.  (Barrett's spotting of his cab still at the scene  some 15 minutes after the Callaway/Scoggins chase is proof of that.)  They didn't have any trouble contacting him between 1:23 and 1:42, or as long as the cab remained at the Tippit scene.  

(In his book, FBI's Hosty speaks of a 2nd witness at the first lineup, which was supposedly conducted only with Mrs M.  Hosty as I recall thought it was Callaway.  But maybe it was Scoggins, & the  latter wouldn't ID Oswald then.  Or yes maybe  Hosty's recollection is faulty.  Yes, complicated...)

[Donald Willis]

7 hours ago, Michael Kalin said:

Harold Russell is a poor choice for the man in Hill's car at 12th & Beckley. He never left the scene with the officers. After leaving them he "went in a nearby drug store," probably Skillern's & Sons on Crawford.

Hill at 12th & Beckley was well outside the general murder area, including all the sundry cab ride routes described by Callaway & Scoggins. It is also the location of the sheriff's substation. This was not a coincidence. My guess is he was waiting on Decker's men to deliver a suspect apprehended at the library. At this time it was swarming with armed law men. We'll never know how close Adrian Hamby came to grief, saved by Secret Service men who were not supposed to be there.

Hill is not to be trusted on any count. Some years ago Gokay Hasan Yusuf convincingly argued in a CTKA article (now Kennedys & King), Gerald Hill and the Framing of Lee Harvey Oswald, that Hill left TSBD in Valentine's car #207. This article is long but worth reading in full.

So is Bill Simpich's shorter article, Jerry Hill’s lies: the heart of the J.D. Tippit shooting.

I see no reason to believe Hill actually had an eyewitness on board. He was desperately seeking the patsy who had briefly slipped through the net put out to trap him, and the promise of a "man in the car with me that can identify the suspect" was a way of calling attention to himself.

That CTKA article--does it involve Hill parking outside Mrs. Roberts' house about 1 pm?  That is I believe a contention of SkyThrone (now calling himself No False Flags Here, formerly 19effp or something.  Can't keep up with his monikers).  Of course there is a basis for that--the number of the police car Mrs R invoked.  But I have proposed an alternate Hill fake-out, using his presence on the 6th floor of the TSBD shouting down re discovered shells.  Supposedly just after they were found.  Only problem with that is he's shouting about 10 minutes too late.  Perhaps I should re-post that post here... (I don't suppose "Yusuf" is another alias of SkyThrone??)

[Donald Willis]

9 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

 

"I know that Dale Myers says that Harold Russell was Sgt. Hill's witness in the car with him at 1:26, but Russell did not attend a lineup, and he was further away from the suspect when he saw him than was Scoggins.  Russell is a possibility, but still less likely than Scoggins.  Or for that matter the interchangeable Callaway!"

 

No.

 

The witness in the patrol car with Hill was indeed Harold Russell.  This comes from Russell himself in a February 1964 interview with the FBI.

 

Two problems with Russell's contention, on 2/23/64, that "officers... put him in a patrol car & had him point out the area where he had last seen the man with the pistol."  First, he makes no mention, for the FBI, on 1/21/64, that he left the Tippit scene.  Secondly, it seems that he could have stood right there, on or near Patton, and pointed out "the area where he had last seen" the man, on Jefferson, since, in neither FBI interview, does he indicate that he left the Tippit scene.  He didn't even get near the next street on Jefferson, which at least Warren Reynolds did.

[Donald Willis]

Unholy Matrimony--The Three Shells Are Finally United with the "Nest"; or, Fritz the Matchmaker

Vincent Bugliosi, in "Four Days in November", has DPD Sgt. Gerald Hill hollering out a depository window re the discovery of the hulls, at 1:06pm, moments after Dallas Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney has found them:

"1:06 pm. Deputy Luke Mooney is near the southeastern corner of the floor when he whistles loudly and hollers to his fellow officers.... On the floor, at the baseboard beneath the window, are three spent cartridge casings--"hulls" as they call them in Texas. Dallas police sergeant Gerald L. Hill walks over to an adjacent window, sticks his head out, and yells down to the street for the crime lab...." (pp115-116).

Hill testified that as he first entered the depository, "Captain Fritz... came up.... Fritz and his men would start at the first floor and work up... and they asked several of us to go to the top floor and work down. We went up to the seventh floor... I went down to sixth.... We hadn't been there but a moment until someone yelled, 'Here it is!'.... The boxes were stacked in a sort of three-sided shield....On the floor near the baseboard... were three spent shells" ..... I went over still further west to another window... and yelled down to the street for them to send us the crime lab" (v7pp45-46). As Bugliosi says, at about 1:06.

We've heard now from Hill and Bugliosi. What about Mooney? "I saw the expended shells.... So I leaned out the window... looked down, and I saw Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz standing right on the ground. Well, so I hollered." (WC testimony/v3p284). What about Fritz? He testified that he "arrived at the scene of the offense at 12:58... and immediately entered the building...." (v4pp204, 205). Mooney, then, puts the finding of the shells at about 12:58, when Fritz arrived. Mooney, in fact, testified that "it was approaching 1 o'clock" when he found them (v3p285). A police-radio transmission from Sgt. D.V. Harkness, at about 12:59, confirms that Mooney's shout-out was heard downstairs: "Give us 508 [the crime lab station wagon] down to the Texas School Book Depository" (CE 1974 p41/DPD radio-log tape).

Three points: 1) Note how Bugliosi manages to maintain the 1:06 fiction by conveniently ignoring Mooney's time estimate and by omitting the names of Mooney's "fellow officers", specifically Fritz. 2) Hill appropriates Mooney's call for the crime lab. ("And I told [Decker] to get the crime lab officers en route" (Mooney/v3p285). (Of course, Hill may not have known that the crime lab had already been called, several minutes earlier, since he was clearly not upstairs when Mooney called out--he, Hill, has himself downstairs, just inside, about to hook up with Fritz, about 12:59.) 3) And Fritz, in his testimony, put himself inside the building running "back and forth from floor to floor... until...someone called me and told me... they had found some empty cartridges." (v4p205)  But Mooney and Harkness nullify Fritz's version of the discovery of the shells. (And if the shells had been found in the "nest", circa 12:58, there would have been no "nest" discovered several minutes later.)

And yet Hill apparently did hear someone call out, "Here it is!", supposedly about 1:06, just before he leaned out *his* window--he was caught by a camera ("Pictures of the Pain" p523). What, then, was "it"? It wasn't the shells--they'd been reported some 6 or 7 minutes earlier. In the photo, Hill is breathlessly pointing to the "sniper's nest" area. Is that "it"? But how could the "nest" of boxes itself have been found *later* than the shells lying half-hidden within it? Unless... unless they were *not* lying within it.

You won't find a reference to Harkness' c12:59 transmission in the text of any book. You won't because its very existence won't allow for the *separate* discoveries of shells and "nest" to be collapsed into a single discovery. In "Case Closed", Gerald Posner puts the discovery of "nest" and hulls at 1:12 (p268). In "Pictures of the Pain", Richard Trask puts it "prior to 1:06" (p523). The Warren Report says "1:12 p.m." (p79). And Fritz's Homicide detectives Sims and Boyd say the "hulls were found about 1:15 PM." (Sims Exhibit A p2) Together, the timings offered by Fritz, Hill, Sims, and Boyd drowned out Mooney's lone voice--lone because Harkness' transmission has been completely ignored. Without Harkness, Mooney is just a dismissable outlier.

*With* Harkness, Mooney wreaks complete havoc with the story of the discovery of the shells, including his own part in it. Mooney identifies the evidence; Harkness verifies the timing. Between them, they undercut not only Fritz's testimony, but Mooney's, too, his testimony, that is, that he found the shells in the "nest" (v3p284). The time--in his testimony--negates the place; a truth exposes a lie. In essence, he cut his own throat. Mooney shouted out one find; Hill shouted out another, several minutes later, calculated with the aid of his own testimony. Without Harkness, the Mooney and Hill scenes can be--as demonstrated by Bugliosi--merged into one. Shells and "nest" can be brought together, in unholy matrimony, as it were.

The missing link....How, then, did the shells get to the "nest"? Fritz has already, here, been shown to be one of the less reliable witnesses re the shells. He would never quite come right out and say whether or not he handled them. But three witnesses did come right out and say that he did. Deputy Jack W. Faulkner: "Fritz of the DPD arrived at the scene and the shells were given to him". (Supplementary report 11/22/63/v19p511) Mooney: "[Fritz] was the first officer that picked them up, as far as I know, because I stood there and watched him go over and pick them up and look at them" (v3p286). Reporter Tom Alyea: "Neither Day nor Studehaker saw the casings until Fritz took them from his pocket and handed them to Studebaker to include them in the crime scene shot of the window" (4/23/98 e-mail to Tony Pitman).

Capt. Fritz, then, was, most likely, the transporter of the shells. The respective testimonies of Fritz and Hill attempted to resituate, in time, the discovery of the shells; Harkness' transmission restores the timing, brings it back to before 12:59. If Harkness heard Mooney's shouting at 12:59, Fritz--just getting to the steps of the depository--most likely, heard it then, too, and he certainly did not hear it several minutes later.

 

 

[Michael Kalin]

15 hours ago, Donald Willis said:

That CTKA article--does it involve Hill parking outside Mrs. Roberts' house about 1 pm?  That is I believe a contention of SkyThrone (now calling himself No False Flags Here, formerly 19effp or something.  Can't keep up with his monikers).  Of course there is a basis for that--the number of the police car Mrs R invoked.  But I have proposed an alternate Hill fake-out, using his presence on the 6th floor of the TSBD shouting down re discovered shells.  Supposedly just after they were found.  Only problem with that is he's shouting about 10 minutes too late.  Perhaps I should re-post that post here... (I don't suppose "Yusuf" is another alias of SkyThrone??)

Yes, it involves Hill parking outside Mrs. Roberts' house about 1 pm . This appears near the top of the article in the section "Hill and the Texas School Book Depository."

Quote

It is also this writer's belief that Hill was one of the two officers inside DPD squad the car seen by Earlene Roberts, the housekeeper of the rooming house located at 1026 North Beckley, where Oswald was allegedly living at the time of the assassination (researcher Lee Farley has made the case that it was actually Larry Crafard who was living at the rooming house at the time of the assassination.

A lengthy analysis of the time factor follows, very complicated and far too long to post in toto, culminating with:

Quote

It is also important to keep in mind that in their report concerning their activities on the day of the assassination, detectives Sims and Boyd wrote that the spent shell casings were found at "about 1:15 pm," and that "Deputy Sheriff Luke E. Mooney said he found them and left them lay as they were" (Dallas Municipal archives, Box 3, Folder 4, Item 5). Similarly, detective B.L. Senkel wrote in his own report that he "...got to the sixth floor [of the TSBD] about 1:10 pm," and that "The empty hulls were found at [the] window about 1:15 pm" (ibid, Folder 12, Item 1). Mooney told the Warren Commission that "...it was approaching 1 o'clock. It could have been 1 o'clock" when he found the spent shell casings, but acknowledged that he didn't look at his watch to determine the time (WC Volume III, page 285).

As pointed out previously, the transcripts of channel two of the DPD radio recordings show that inspector sawyer reported over the radio that the spent shell casings were found at approximately 1:11 pm. Given all of the evidence discussed above, it is apparent to this writer that Mooney's discovery of the spent shell casings was responsible for Sawyer's transmission. If it took the officer who reported the discovery to Sawyer approximately two minutes from the time he left the sixth floor to the time he spoke to Sawyer, then Mooney found the spent shell casings at approximately 1:09 pm. Suffice it to say, aside from one DPD detective who is not a credible witness, there is an utter lack of support for Hill's claim that he was on the sixth floor at the time Mooney found the spent shell casings. On a final note, Steve Pieringer, a Fort Worth News reporter, reported the following from outside the TSBD: "Jerry Hill of the Dallas Police department just yelled out a window... Apparently they've found some shells there in that room in the Texas School book depository building" (see When The News Went Live in Google books).

There can be no doubt that Pieringer reported this, as film footage (which can be viewed here) confirms that he did. As for Pieringer's claim that others were with Hill when he yelled out of the window, this may have been an assumption on Pieringer's part. Alternatively, Hill may have yelled out words to the effect "We have found empty shells on this floor." It is this writer's belief that the purpose of Hill yelling out of the window was to ensure that there would be witnesses to the fact that he was on the sixth floor when the discovery of the spent shell casings was allegedly made, and that he wasn't outside the rooming house at 1026 North Beckley in DPD squad car 207. If Hill framed Oswald for Tippit's murder, then it stands to reason that he was also involved in President Kennedy's assassination, and that by all likelihood, he would have known in advance from which floor of the TSBD the shots would have been fired at the President. As for Hill's claim that he and a deputy Sheriff found the spent shell casings during his interview with Bob Whitten, he could easily have learned from one or more DPD Officers at Police headquarters prior to his interview with Whitten that Mooney had discovered the spent shell casings (WCD 1210, page 3).

According to Google Maps, if Hill left the TSBD at approximately 12:58 pm, and travelled to the rooming house at 1026 North Beckley via Commerce Street; by this writer's calculation, at an average speed of 50 mph, Hill could have arrived there at approximately 1:01 pm. Hill told the Warren Commission that he travelled to the Tippit murder scene with Sgt. Calvin "Bud" Owens, and assistant Dallas district attorney, William F. Alexander (WC Volume VII, page 47). Although Alexander verified that this was the case, and although the recordings of the DPD radio communications (available on John McAdams' website here) show that Hill was using Owens' radio identification number when speaking over the radio, as I will explain in detail on my blog, this was a fabrication by the DPD to cover-up for Hill's presence outside the rooming house. I will also discuss Hill's activities (and demonstrable lies) from the time he left the TSBD, to the time he arrived at the Texas Theater (click here to read through my discussion of Earlene Roberts' credibility).

You've plumbed these depths, and your thoughts will be welcome. Incidentally, Roberts saw "two uniformed policemen" in 207. The second might be the "man in the car" of the 1:26 announcement. The uniforms are a sticking point.

I've seen nothing by Yusuf for several years, but I seldom visit ROKC, don't know if he now posts using an alias.

[Donald Willis]

3 hours ago, Michael Kalin said:

Yes, it involves Hill parking outside Mrs. Roberts' house about 1 pm . This appears near the top of the article in the section "Hill and the Texas School Book Depository."

A lengthy analysis of the time factor follows, very complicated and far too long to post in toto, culminating with:

You've plumbed these depths, and your thoughts will be welcome. Incidentally, Roberts saw "two uniformed policemen" in 207. The second might be the "man in the car" of the 1:26 announcement. The uniforms are a sticking point.

I've seen nothing by Yusuf for several years, but I seldom visit ROKC, don't know if he now posts using an alias.

I'll just add that no one INSIDE the depository, at the finding of the shells, confirms Hill's presence there. 

[David G. Healy]

12 hours ago, Donald Willis said:

I'll just add that no one INSIDE the depository, at the finding of the shells, confirms Hill's presence there. 

good seeing you here, Don....

[Donald Willis]

On 9/27/2023 at 4:56 AM, Michael Griffith said:

The Z224 lapel flip is probably an optical illusion. Even if it is not, it has nothing to do with the shooting because the bullet exited at least 11 inches from the lapel and 2 inches below the right nipple. There was a strong wind gusting in Dealey Plaza during the shooting. If the lapel flip is real, it was most likely caused by a gust of wind.

However, ask yourself this: Is it physically possible for a lapel to flip up and then down in 1/18th of a second? Really?

 

20 hours ago, David G. Healy said:

good seeing you here, Don....

Thank you.  A friend tipped me off to alt.assassination.jfk way back in about 1998.  I stayed with it and alt.conspiracy.jfk, where recently someone tipped me off to the ed forum.  I had visited it, but hadn't posted, until now.  

[Ron Bulman]

Three wallets.  Maybe an article at K & K?  At least two is a sure thing.  I thought there was a thread on the forum.  One in the car on the way to the DPD HQ, one at the Tippit murder and one in Irving.  The assistance of AI suggests only one.

three wallets oswald education forum - Search (bing.com)  

[Michael Kalin]

On 9/27/2023 at 12:05 PM, Donald Willis said:

I'll just add that no one INSIDE the depository, at the finding of the shells, confirms Hill's presence there. 

OK, thanks, nothing but speculation to carry on with, already too much of that, returning to the curious wild ride.

Callaway & Scoggins did not identify each other despite the former working across the street from the latter's club. Perhaps Scoggins gave up dominoes in the months preceding the WC hearings, when Callaway woke up and finally announced it was Scoggins. Maybe Callaway did not make a lasting impression on people, else why didn't Harold Russell recognize him at the murder scene when he hailed the cab?

The involvement of the Secret Service, premature because the roster of players was incomplete, may explain why the cab got rerouted from Patton to Tenth. The 12/1/63 SS synopsis has the fugitive running down the alley: "Oswald was observed by witnesses running into an alley and continue west between Jefferson and 10th Streets."

The SS list of witnesses was also not up to speed. Benavides & Bowley are both absent, probably because the latter had not yet given an affidavit to the DPD. Therefore, there was no need to elevate Leavelle's marginal witness, Benavides, into a full-fledged eyewitness for the sake of displacing Bowley.

So the SS was operating during an interim stage of preparing the frame, and someone decided to sync the flight path with the wild ride route. Callaway played ball immediately but Scoggins was not so pliable. From his 12/2/63 affidavit taken by SA Giuffre:

Quote

We proceeded north on Patton and possibly turned west on 10th. We cruised an area north of 10th street looking for the man I had seen, but we did not see him. When we left the intersection of 10th and Patton we did not go to Patton and Jefferson, but went in a northerly direction which would be opposite from the intersection of Patton and Jefferson streets.

Note the grudging "possibly turned west on 10th," nullified by "went in a northerly direction which would be opposite from the intersection of Patton and Jefferson streets." North, why north?

Edited September 29, 2023 by Michael Kalin

[Donald Willis]

1 hour ago, Michael Kalin said:

OK, thanks, nothing but speculation to carry on with, already too much of that, returning to the curious wild ride.

Callaway & Scoggins did not identify each other despite the former working across the street from the latter's club. Perhaps Scoggins gave up dominoes in the months preceding the WC hearings, when Callaway woke up and finally announced it was Scoggins. Maybe Callaway did not make a lasting impression on people, else why didn't Harold Russell recognize him at the murder scene when he hailed the cab?

The involvement of the Secret Service, premature because the roster of players was incomplete, may explain why the cab got rerouted from Patton to Tenth. The 12/1/63 SS synopsis has the fugitive running down the alley: "Oswald was observed by witnesses running into an alley and continue west between Jefferson and 10th Streets."

The SS list of witnesses was also not up to speed. Benavides & Bowley are both absent

BENAVIDES WAS ABSENT ALL OF 1963, AND NOT JUST FROM THE SS FILES.  I DON'T SEE ANY FBI INTERVIEWS OR NEWSPAPER INTERVIEWS FOR HIM EITHER.  NOR ANY COUNTY/CITY AFFIDAVITS.  NOTHING BUT 2ND-HAND POLICE REPORTS MENTIONING HIM.  HE HAD APPARENTLY NOT YET BEEN INFORMED OF HIS ROLE IN THE STORY.  DET. LEAVELLE, THOUGH, HAS SUGGESTED THAT HE DID AN AFFIDAVIT ON 11/22.  IF SO, IT'S GONE, ALONG WITH JAMES TAGUE'S POLICE AFFIDAVIT (WHICH TAGUE MENTIONS DURING HIS WC TESTIMONY) AND BOB JACKSON'S AFFIDAVIT FOR THE SHERIFF'S, WHICH LUMMIE LEWIS NOTED IN HIS REPORT THAT WEEKEND.  DON'T HOLD YOUR BREATH (AS I HAVE) WAITING FOR THE RELEASE OF THESE DOCUMENTS!

DCW

, probably because the latter had not yet given an affidavit to the DPD. Therefore, there was no need to elevate Leavelle's marginal witness, Benavides, into a full-fledged eyewitness for the sake of displacing Bowley.

So the SS was operating during an interim stage of preparing the frame, and someone decided to sync the flight path with the wild ride route. Callaway played ball immediately but Scoggins was not so pliable. From his 12/2/63 affidavit taken by SA Giuffre:

Note the grudging "possibly turned west on 10th," nullified by "went in a northerly direction which would be opposite from the intersection of Patton and Jefferson streets." North, why north?