Sheriff's Deputies and the adddress book

[Steve Thomas]

I had been under the impression that the police got the Beckley street address when Officers Stovall, Rose, and Adamcik went to the Irving address and either got the address from Ruth Paine, or she gave them a telephone number that the police crossed referenced.

However, none of the three Dallas City Police officers mentions in their reports getting the Beckley St. address from Ruth Paine.

 

On Friday afternoon November 22nd, 3 Dallas Police Officers and 3 Dallas Co. Sheriff's Deputies were dispatched to 2515 W. Fifth St. in Irving Texas. Oswald had been arrested at about 1:50PM, arrived at City Hall after 2:00 PM and was taken into Captain Fritz's office at 2:20PM.

Police Officers Adamcik (7H202), Rose (7H227) and Stovall (7H186) are unanimous in saying that Captain Fritz dispatched them to Irving at 2:30 PM. They are also unanimous in saying that when they arrived at this address, they had to wait for 35-40 minutes for the Deputy Sheriffs to arrive since Irving was outside their jurisdiction.

In his after-action report filed with Chief Curry (City of Dallas archives - JFK Collection) Box 3, Folder# 1, Item# 3 http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm
Guy Rose wrote that after the Deputies showed up, they arrived at the front door at 3:30PM.

Harry Weatherford, Buddy Walthers, and J. L. Oxford were the deputies dispatched to Irving. You can find their accounts in the Supplementary Reports they filed with Sheriff Decker in volume 19 of the WC Hearings. Walthers, Weatherford and Sheriff Decker all said that Ruth Paine gave them a telephone number where Oswald could be reached and that they criss-crossed that number and came up with the Beckley St. address.

Harry Weatherford, Buddy Walthers, and J.L. Oxford were the Sheriff’s Deputies dispatched to Irving.

Walthers, Weatherford and Sheriff Decker all said that Ruth Paine gave them a telephone number where Oswald could be reached and that they criss-crossed that number and came up with the Beckley St. address.

However, their accounts differ.

Harry Weatherford 19H503 Supplementary Investigation Report filed 11/23/63

I stayed with Mrs. Oswald and Mrs. Payne while the rest of the men searched the house….While standing near the phone bar, I saw a BLACK telephone address book which I picked up and thumbed through, finding in the “O’s” the name of Lee Oswald, Texas School Book Depository and the telephone number. Then another phone number, which I believe was written in PENCIL. I asked what this number was, pointing to this pencil number, and Mrs. Payne said that is the phone where Lee was living.

 

From Richard S. Stovall's Warren Commission testimony 7H190

Concerning a list of items taken out of 2515 W. Fifth St.
“I’ve got listed One BLUE Check telephone index book (addresses) – I’m not sure which bedroom that came from.

 

In her testimony, (3H79-81) describing the search at 2515 W. Fifth St., Ruth Paine makes no mention whatsoever of giving the police Oswald’s telephone number.

Ruth Paine 9H365

Mr. Jenner. Directing your attention to Commission Exhibit No. 402 which is your address book,...Is there anything on any of the entries which appear on those pages which relate to the Oswalds?
Mrs. Paine. The one on the left is the police officer who picked up the address book.
Mr. Jenner. Those are his initials and date that he picked it up?
Mrs. Paine. I don't know who picked it up. And I didn't see it was gone.

 

Mrs. Paine. Yes. He said of the room where he was staying, renting a room, and I could reach him here if she went into labor.
Mr. Jenner. Just stick to this particular occasion. What telephone number – did you record it?

Lee WANTED to be reached (His wife was about to give birth to Rachel)

Mrs. Paine. Yes. In INK in my telephone book.
Mrs. Paine. The number was WH2-1985
Mr. Jenner. He did not give you an address?
Mrs. Paine. No.

 

Buddy Walthers 19H520 Supplementary Investigation Report filed 11/22/63

Mrs. Payne then gave us a telephone number and stated that was the number of Lee Oswald, however, she advised she did not know an address where he was staying. At this time, I called Sheriff Decker and advised him of this and he criss-crossed this telephone number and gave us an address of 1026 N. Beckley. He advised he would dispatch other officers to cover this address.

In his Warren Commission testimony 7H549 taken July 23, 1964, Walthers changes the scenario slightly

"We didn't go to the trouble of looking at any of this stuff much---just more or less confiscated it at the time, and we looked at it there just like that, and then we took all this stuff and put it in the car and then Mrs. Paine got a phone number from Mrs. Oswald where you could call Lee Harvey Oswald in Oak Cliff".
 

According to Walthers, the Deputies got the phone number after they had loaded the car, and they only got it because Ruth Paine got it from Marina.

 

Decker 19H462

Mrs. Payne gave Deputy Walthers a telephone number where she said that Lee Oswald had been staying at, however, she stated that she did not know the address. Officer Walthers then called me by public service giving me this information, whereupon, I had called Allan Sweatt, Chief Criminal Deputy and Deputy Clint Lewis to locate this address both by criss cross and also verifying same through telephone company. Mr. Sweatt reported to me that the telephone number was 1026 N. Beckley. At this time I requested that David Johnston, Justice of the Peace, to issue a search warrant to that location for officers to search the premises. Information was obtained at this address from the landlady to the effect that a man by the name of O.H. Lee had been living at this location for a period of two weeks.

Allan Sweatt 19H533 makes no mention of this in his Supplementary Investigation Report file with Sheriff Decker on 11/23/63

J.L. Oxford, the other deputy present, J.L. Oxford Supplementary Investigation Report filed with Sheriff Decker 11/23/63 makes no mention of Ruth Paine giving the police Oswald’s phone number.

 

Was the address book black, or was it blue?

Was the number written in pencil, or was it written in ink?

 

Did Ruth Paine volunteer the number? Did Harry Weatherford find it? Did Ruth Paine get the number from Marina?

Did Ruth even know that the address book was gone?

 

So many questions.

 

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

On 3/29/2021 at 11:27 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Decker 19H462

 

Mrs. Payne gave Deputy Walthers a telephone number where she said that Lee Oswald had been staying at, however, she stated that she did not know the address. Officer Walthers then called me by public service giving me this information,

Buddy Walthers called Bill Decker on a pay phone?

Doesn't that strike you as just a little bit odd?

Steve Thomas

[Tony Krome]

On 3/30/2021 at 12:27 AM, Steve Thomas said:

 

Was the number written in pencil, or was it written in ink?

 

WH2-1985 was the Bledsoe number written in ink

WH3-8993 was the Johnson number presumably written in pencil

[Richard Booth]

4 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Buddy Walthers called Bill Decker on a pay phone?

Doesn't that strike you as just a little bit odd?

Steve Thomas

What comes to mind first is "why didn't he just call from Ruth Paine's phone?" but there are a few reasons why he might not have.

For example, was Walthers in transit from the Paine residence back to the DPD when he decided the information was important enough that he wanted to call immediately rather than wait until he reached Dallas from Irving?

Another thing that comes to mind is the status of Paine's phone. Was someone else using the phone? Did Paine have her phone "off the hook" due to an overwhelming amount of phone calls from reporters?

It is unusual, but I can see some scenarios by which it would be not so unusual.

[Steve Thomas]

43 minutes ago, Richard Booth said:

It is unusual, but I can see some scenarios by which it would be not so unusual.

Richard,

Not too long ago, I was reading Will Fritz's account of how he planned to spirit Jack Ruby out of jail to take him over to the county jail.

I'm sorry, I don't remember where it was I was reading.

After physically planning the extrication route, Fritz recounted how he phoned in the plans to headquarters using a pay phone to avoid the plans being overheard or leaked.

I was concentrating on something else at the time, and didn't take too much notice, but I wonder if the same thought process was underway here.

When J.D. Tippit needed to make a call, he tried to use the Top Ten Record store. When Ray Hawkins needed to make a call during the search for Tippit's killer, he used the Mobile Gas Station.

I wonder if the law enforcement milieu in Dallas leaked like a sieve.

Steve Thomas

Edited March 31, 2021 by Steve Thomas

[Richard Booth]

9 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Richard,

Not too long ago, I was reading Will Fritz's account of how he planned to spirit Jack Ruby out of jail to take him over to the county jail.

I'm sorry, I don't remember where it was I was reading.

After physically planning the extrication route, Fritz recounted how he phoned in the plans to headquarters using a pay phone to avoid the plans being overheard or leaked.

I was concentrating on something else at the time, and didn't take too much notice, but I wonder if the same thought process was underway here. I wonder if the law enforcement milieu in Dallas leaked like a sieve.

Steve Thomas

I also thought about that, especially given the fact that the Paines' phone was tapped at the time. But would Walthers have known that?

... a telephone call was intercepted in Dallas in which a "male voice was heard to say that he felt sure Lee Harvey Oswald had killed the President but did not feel Oswald was responsible, and further stated, `We both know who is responsible.' " ... the tapped telephone numbers were those of Michael Paine and his wife, Ruth Paine, the woman who was playing host to Marina Oswald at the time of the assassination." (Summers, Conspiracy, p. 103 (Chapter 7, "A Sphinx for Texas.") Summers cites Warren Commission Document 206, p. 66, which he says was declassified in 1976.)

Edited March 31, 2021 by Richard Booth

[Greg Doudna]

2 hours ago, Richard Booth said:

I also thought about that, especially given the fact that the Paines' phone was tapped at the time. But would Walthers have known that?

... a telephone call was intercepted in Dallas in which a "male voice was heard to say that he felt sure Lee Harvey Oswald had killed the President but did not feel Oswald was responsible, and further stated, `We both know who is responsible.' " ... the tapped telephone numbers were those of Michael Paine and his wife, Ruth Paine, the woman who was playing host to Marina Oswald at the time of the assassination." (Summers, Conspiracy, p. 103 (Chapter 7, "A Sphinx for Texas.") Summers cites Warren Commission Document 206, p. 66, which he says was declassified in 1976.)

Richard, everyone including Ruth Paine has thought her phone was tapped based on the mystery of how that phone conversation became known, but that never was stronger than unconfirmed (however reasonable) supposition. Ruth recounted that she asked an FBI agent directly if they had tapped her phone and was not reassured when she did not receive a straight answer of "no". The agent answered instead, "Now why would we want to tap your phone?", without answering the question. However I have found testimony, seemingly missed by researchers and I imagine unknown to Ruth Paine herself to the present day, that gives an alternative possible mechanism other than phone-tapping as the explanation: information from an eavesdropping telephone operator. I found it in this June 1992 issue of "Dateline: Dallas", pp. 6-7: http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/F Disk/Fensterwald Bernard 1990/Item 004.pdf. The son of the unnamed telephone operator supplied his mother's written information after her death.

Despite the unusual nature of what this telephone operator remembered she heard and it not coming to light until 1992, I believe this is a version of the same Michael-Ruth phone call on Friday, Nov. 22 (not Sat Nov 23) that Michael and Ruth were asked about by the FBI and then during their Warren Commission testimony. The telephone operator's memory that the call occurred at about 2 pm Friday must be mistaken by one hour since the operator overheard the woman during that phone call inform the man, who was not yet aware, that the news had just been announced that moment "on the radio" that Kennedy was dead, which was broadcast nationally at about 1 pm.

She thought she overheard the woman ask, "Will Lee get the bonus loot?" And she thought she heard the man answer: "Kennedy has to be dead for to get the bonus".

I think this may have been a mishearing of something like "Will Lee get pro bono legal?" And reply: "Kennedy has to be dead to get pro bono", followed by "they are not suspicious of him, no", implying Michael and Ruth, at this point realized from the news that it sounded like Lee was the shooter, even though nothing had been reported publicly that authorities had yet arrived at that suspicion, and this was before police arrived at Ruth's house. The operator wrote that there was a loud radio or TV in the background on the woman's end, and other indications that the operator missed parts of the conversation and could have misheard or misremembered other parts of what she did hear.

In this operator's memory, it was Ruth who phoned Michael at work whereupon Michael said he would come over to Irving right away, which he did, arriving shortly after the police arrived at the Ruth Paine house. The FBI interviews and Ruth's WC testimony concerning that phone call had MIchael phoning Ruth. There are other discrepancies between what was alleged to have been said in that conversation according to FBI's "Confidential Informant T-4" (whoever that was); this operator's later written account of her memory; and the interviews and testimony of Ruth and Michael at the time. An interview of Ruth Paine ca. Nov 2015 gives still further comment about that phone call: https://www.ciadidnotkilljfk.org/single-post/2020/03/25/A-Word-about-Ruth-Paine.

This telephone operator, by her written account, experienced being stonewalled in telling what she heard of this call to her superiors. She wrote: "He [her former supervisor, in 1965] said that the information was given to the telephone company's attorney's or special agents, but the FBI had never asked for any information concerning President Kennedy's death and was not volunteered. WHY?" She wrote: "The telephone company, the FBI nor the Warren Commission have contacted me. i have kept this information inside of me." 

However, this operator said there was another telephone company employee who may have overheard this same phone call: "I do have a witness to this, who I did not report because I will not involve an innocent person." It could be that the other employee, unknown to this operator, was the source of the information that came to the attention of the FBI concerning that phone call. If, say, the phone company was assuring the public that its operators did not eavesdrop on private telephone conversations, that could be a reason for the phone company to request confidentiality from the FBI concerning how the information was obtained, when it was reported. Because of the significant differences in what the FBI received of the content of that phone call, compared to this operator's account, it does not seem that this operator's account would have been the FBI's original source.

Of course it is very possible the Paine residence phone could have been tapped, depending on an agency's level of interest in surveilling Marina. Ruth's inability to get a straight denial that her phone was tapped heightens the uncertainty. But this operator's report may disclose a different possible source for the information that came to the FBI's attention concerning that phone call. 

[James DiEugenio]

Steve:

From your work above the time line would be a bit after 3 PM for the cops and sheriff to know where Oswald was staying.

So how did the FBI know  Oswald was at Beckley over an hour earlier? (The Lone Star Speaks, "The Voice of Pat Hall", p. 175)

Stella Fay Puckett called her mother Gladys Johnson and said Oswald was being arrested across the street from where she was working.  The reply was, "Well, that explains why the FBI is here searching his room." 

And that is how they found out he was Lee Oswald.

[Ron Bulman]

34 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Steve:

From your work above the time line would be a bit after 3 PM for the cops and sheriff to know where Oswald was staying.

So how did the FBI know  Oswald was at Beckley over an hour earlier? (The Lone Star Speaks, "The Voice of Pat Hall", p. 175)

Stella Fay Puckett called her mother Gladys Johnson and said Oswald was being arrested across the street from where she was working.  The reply was, "Well, that explains why the FBI is here searching his room." 

And that is how they found out he was Lee Oswald.

Sounds like the FBI knew where Oswald lived, before the assassination.

[James DiEugenio]

That is what Joe McBride said previously when I brought this up. 

I am still on the fence about it. Since I had never seen this information before but the authors sent me their book.  And its not them saying it.  Its Stella Fay Puckett saying it.

Edited April 1, 2021 by James DiEugenio

[Richard Booth]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

Sounds like the FBI knew where Oswald lived, before the assassination.

Or they quickly found out on the day-of from one or more sources. Someone tipped them to it.

On the other hand, I would expect Hosty to know where Oswald lived. Had he been doing his job he would have conducted surveillance on Oswald leaving work at least once to determine where he was going. 

Post-assassination, Hosty and the FBI both had good reason to not be forthcoming about what they did know about Oswald, and when. 

Most especially this would include what FBI agent Warren DeBrueys knew about Oswald in New Orleans. 

What organizations might have had information on Oswald?  The 112th. The Law Enforcement Intelligence Unit. Customs. It's mind boggling how many organizations had a file on this guy.

[Richard Booth]

3 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

I believe this is a version of the same Michael-Ruth phone call on Friday, Nov. 22 (not Sat Nov 23) that Michael and Ruth were asked about by the FBI and then during their Warren Commission testimony. T

This is an interesting find -- and certainly there were a lot of operators listening to calls. An operator could well have been the source of the Michael Paine/Ruth Paine phone call outlined by FBI confidential source T-4 in Warren Commission Document 206, p. 66

However, I disagree that the call described in Dateline: Dallas is was Michael Paine or Ruth Paine. For a few reasons. Firstly, let's look at the discussion overheard:

Female: "Will Lee get the bonus loot?"

Male: "What are you calling me, and don't mention my name on the phone. Kennedy has to be dead for to get the bonus."

Female: "He is dead, they've just announced it on the radio."

Male: "Don't you call here again. You will be contacted. They are not suspicious of him, no."

I believe it is strongly out of character for Ruth Paine to use the word "loot."  I also believe it is strongly out of character for Michael Paine to be so curt and dominant, saying things like "What are you calling me for?" and "don't mention my name on the phone" ... or "don't you call here again!"

That is absolutely not Michael Paine in my opinion. This was some other male and female.

However, I do concede that the possibility exists that FBI confidential source T-4 mentioned in Warren Commission Document 206, p. 66, who reports on a phone conversation between Michael and Ruth, was possibly a telephone operator or someone at the phone company. 

I think it was possible that the Paines' phone was tapped by the FBI because Marina Oswald lived there and she would be of-interest to the FBI.

I believe it was very likely that Ruth and Michael Paine's phones were tapped by the CIA given the nature of the operation that Ruth and Michael were involved in. I'm pretty certain that we do not agree on this, from what I have seen you write I understand you believe that Ruth Paine is Mother Theresa, just trying to help a poor pregnant Russian girl. Ruth's excuse that she was needed to trans-late is laughable, especially when you consider that Marina Oswald spoke English perfectly well and didn't need Ruth Paine for that.

We will have to agree to disagree about Ruth Paine, as I won't debate you about her and I will respect that you have a different opinion, which is fine by me.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Richard Booth

[Tony Krome]

If you believe Oswald was manipulated into a position as an employee of a building overlooking the Kennedy motorcade route for the purpose of setting him up as the assassin, you can rest assured all his movements were closely monitored as well as the people he associated with.

I'm talking at least 6 weeks plus of intensive surveillance. Nothing would have been left to chance.

[Richard Booth]

3 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

If you believe Oswald was manipulated into a position as an employee of a building overlooking the Kennedy motorcade route for the purpose of setting him up as the assassin, you can rest assured all his movements were closely monitored as well as the people he associated with.

I'm talking at least 6 weeks plus of intensive surveillance. Nothing would have been left to chance.

Agree

[Ron Bulman]

31 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

If you believe Oswald was manipulated into a position as an employee of a building overlooking the Kennedy motorcade route for the purpose of setting him up as the assassin, you can rest assured all his movements were closely monitored as well as the people he associated with.

I'm talking at least 6 weeks plus of intensive surveillance. Nothing would have been left to chance.

Oswald landed at the TSBD six weeks before the assassination.  Dulles visited Dallas for his first time ever five weeks before.  And chuckled about it years afterwards.