Cliff Varnell Posted April 29, 2021 Share Posted April 29, 2021 35 minutes ago, Matt Allison said: Chris- when was the last time the House of Commons was raided? April 20, 1653. Oliver Cromwell kicked out the "Rump Parliament." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 29, 2021 Share Posted April 29, 2021 38 minutes ago, Richard Price said: Chris, this is off topic other than for the highlighted quote. While it is only my opinion, I disagree with your perception that the January 6th attack was sensationalized to the extent you do. I think the country was far closer to a coup than some do. Trump was still fully in control of all the levers of government. Only his failing to find the next weakest link in the chain kept him from succeeding in his quest. Had the election not been certified when it was scheduled, there is absolutely no way to know what he might have tried next. Even now, while out of power, he still has so called Republicans (Trumpians), who still would assert his title to the Presidency. These people are Senators, Congressional representatives, state, local office holders and a 30% grassroots following who believe ANYTHING he says. It might not be up there with Pearl Harbor, but you have to remember, the greatest power on earth was defeated by a small group of "rabble rousers" some 245 years ago. Our system is so out of kilter right now with the gerrymandered election districts, we are still not out of the woods for rule by the minority who have the "elected" power to overcome the majority. No problem, if Benjamin objects or it’s derailing the thread we can debate this elsewhere. Disagreements and discourse are what makes this place int resting. My position is that I do not have any blue or red sweat and tears invested in US politics. I completely understand why patriots would feel very passionately about this. My contention is that whilst Trump is a Republican and that is the party with the hawkish, war mongering reputation (he was a Dem before) and actually spoke out against conflicts the US was embroiling itself in, I don’t buy into the case that he has the military industrial complex onside. It appears from the outside that he stifled the US war in perpetuity mandate. And he’d have won no friends in the military publicly saying things like: those guys at the military industrial complex are crazy, they want us to stay in Syria for the next 100 years. That may not be verbatim but, I listened to roughly those words come out of his mouth and I actually thought; that won’t be welcome at the Pentagon. I do note that political party donations are basically equal to each party from your Haliburton’s, Northrup Gruman’s, Boeing, Raetheon and other war profiteers. I think that case can be made the other way. I agree with you that the system is off kilter, but, IMHO both parties are responsible. I think it’s theatre largely, they are all picking up their cheques and for one class it’s continuity and a distraction for the masses. The psychological effect of the media and recent events has the public running about like headless chickens. Who wouldn’t be under the same circumstances? You steady the ship in crisis, not fan the flames like US media networks are. I think the election fraud / legitimacy is another complex topic. To me, it wasn’t a case as to whether there was fraud, the question is to what extent. The reason I say that, Richard, is because to some extent it goes on every election, right back to 1960. I have seen both sides of the argument. People can call me a cynic or a conspiracy theorist but, SCAD’s do happen in America. I see your political establishment very differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 29, 2021 Share Posted April 29, 2021 11 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said: April 20, 1653. Oliver Cromwell kicked out the "Rump Parliament." There is a good little history of that here, Cliff: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Oliver-Cromwell/Administration-as-lord-protector Was he fighting tyranny and for liberty? Or was he a treasonous scoundrel? It gets me thinking of Hamilton and the inception of the USA. He was a proper American. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Allison Posted April 29, 2021 Share Posted April 29, 2021 So the answer is 1653? Then let's stop pretending 1/6 was a nothingburger, eh? Doing so is a farcical notion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted April 29, 2021 Share Posted April 29, 2021 4 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said: No problem, if Benjamin objects or it’s derailing the thread we can debate this elsewhere. Disagreements and discourse are what makes this place int resting. My position is that I do not have any blue or red sweat and tears invested in US politics. I completely understand why patriots would feel very passionately about this. My contention is that whilst Trump is a Republican and that is the party with the hawkish, war mongering reputation (he was a Dem before) and actually spoke out against conflicts the US was embroiling itself in, I don’t buy into the case that he has the military industrial complex onside. Chris, Trump supported the 2nd Iraq War and spoke in favor of NATO intervention in Libya. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/andrewkaczynski/in-2002-donald-trump-said-he-supported-invading-iraq-on-the https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/andrewkaczynski/trump-claims-he-didnt-support-libya-intervention-but-he-did Trump significantly increased military spending. https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/military-spending-defense-budget 4 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said: It appears from the outside that he stifled the US war in perpetuity mandate. Trump tried to goad Iran into war by dropping out of the Iran nuke accord, slapping them with crippling sanctions, and assassinating their #2 leader. Trump gave advanced weaponry to Saudi Arabia for it's genocidal campaign in Yemen. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49106989 He quadrupled civilian deaths by drone strikes in Somalia. https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-ramped-up-drone-strikes-in-americas-shadow-wars 4 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said: And he’d have won no friends in the military publicly saying things like: those guys at the military industrial complex are crazy, they want us to stay in Syria for the next 100 years. That may not be verbatim but, I listened to roughly those words come out of his mouth and I actually thought; that won’t be welcome at the Pentagon. I do note that political party donations are basically equal to each party from your Haliburton’s, Northrup Gruman’s, Boeing, Raetheon and other war profiteers. I think that case can be made the other way. I agree with you that the system is off kilter, but, IMHO both parties are responsible. Republican politicians pass laws that make it harder for Democrats to vote. https://www.salon.com/2021/02/12/in-2021-alone-gop-introduces-100-voter-suppression-bills-in-28-states_partner/ Voter fraud is virtually non-existent. Electoral fraud is the only way Republicans can win nationally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 29, 2021 Share Posted April 29, 2021 10 minutes ago, Matt Allison said: So the answer is 1653? Then let's stop pretending 1/6 was a nothingburger, eh? Doing so is a farcical notion. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nude-protest-parliament-commons-naked-latest-a8849866.html%3famp 2019, then I think 2015, then 2004 I think. All breaches of the premises. I just think perception Is everything, Matt. The public have been put on a knife edge by politicians and media networks. I’ll reiterate, I can’t say the media coverage or reaction was proportionate. I don’t claim to represent all international people, it just looks very different from the outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said: Chris, Trump supported the 2nd Iraq War and spoke in favor of NATO intervention in Libya. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/andrewkaczynski/in-2002-donald-trump-said-he-supported-invading-iraq-on-the https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/andrewkaczynski/trump-claims-he-didnt-support-libya-intervention-but-he-did Trump significantly increased military spending. https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/military-spending-defense-budget Trump tried to goad Iran into war by dropping out of the Iran nuke accord, slapping them with crippling sanctions, and assassinating their #2 leader. Trump gave advanced weaponry to Saudi Arabia for it's genocidal campaign in Yemen. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49106989 He quadrupled civilian deaths by drone strikes in Somalia. https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-ramped-up-drone-strikes-in-americas-shadow-wars Republican politicians pass laws that make it harder for Democrats to vote. https://www.salon.com/2021/02/12/in-2021-alone-gop-introduces-100-voter-suppression-bills-in-28-states_partner/ Voter fraud is virtually non-existent. Electoral fraud is the only way Republicans can win nationally. I know you are hypersensitive to this, Cliff, and it isn’t my intention to irk you in this, I know its your country and a topic close to your hearts, my intention isn’t to agitate. I think you’ve made some fantastic contributions to threads lately regarding lone nut theories which I wholly agree with and support. We both have looked at the way the JFK presidency was handled and conflicts JFK was involved in and we’ve seen the way he was framed up for certain things (BOP, Missile Crisis, Vietnam etc) and portrayed in right wing circles. Policy often precedes administrations as it comes from strategists in the Pentagon as opposed to the president. If we were to look at the death toll abroad in US conflicts under the Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton, Bush 1 administration's, how does it look? We can cut those stats in half with those having two terms (8 years). US defence spending in general is a good topic, when do you guys ever seriously cut back? Is it all to keep us safe or to keep global dominance, or is that the same thing? Or was Major General Smedley Butler, right? And was Eisenhower right in his fairwell address? Was Truman right in his December 22 63 column? I can start busting out links too, you’ll say they aren't credible and i’ll say yours aren’t and we’ll rattle on for 3 days chasing tails. I am certain there will be more supporting links of your case as that’s the way the media portrayed it, there has been a massive journalistic push. Volume doesn’t equal truth. Please understand, I view Republicans as responsible for a lot, I can’t hold the party up as a paragon of virtue. I can’t do that with Democrats either. History should tell you neither party are saints. Both have committed SCAD’s. Politics is a very dirty business and we get out hopes up every 4 years that some good actor is the one and we get the same. Chris PS Let me agree with you on something, when the Iranian general was drone striked just outside of Iraq’s I was in south Oman watching news in Arabic and thinking: Trump WTF are you thinking, it seemed bar the Saudi’s the whole middle east was baying for US blood. It’s a war crime plain and simple, assassination is forbidden in war or peacetime. A bit like it was in WWII when my country trained guys to assassinate Heydrich in the Czech territory. I don’t think Trump woke up one day and picked the name at random from a phone book, who ever supplied the intelligence and made the case should be on the stand too. A bit like WMD’s, there should be a Bush & a Blair on the stand and so on. Edited April 30, 2021 by Chris Barnard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said: I know you are hypersensitive to this, Cliff, and it isn’t my intention to irk you in this, I know its your country and a topic close to your hearts, my intention isn’t to agitate. I love bashing Trump. I love pushing back on the Big Lies he's conned people into repeating. Quote I think you’ve made some fantastic contributions to threads lately regarding lone nut theories which I wholly agree with and support. We both have looked at the way the JFK presidency was handled and conflicts JFK was involved in and we’ve seen the way he was framed up for certain things (BOP, Missile Crisis, Vietnam etc) and portrayed in right wing circles. Policy often precedes administrations as it comes from strategists in the Pentagon as opposed to the president. If we were to look at the death toll abroad in US conflicts under the Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton, Bush 1 administration's, how does it look? We can cut those stats in half with those having two terms (8 years). US defence spending in general is a good topic, when do you guys ever seriously cut back? Defense spending nearly flat-lined under Obama before Trump accelerated it. U.S. military spending/defense budget for 2019 was $731.75B, a 7.22% increase from 2018. U.S. military spending/defense budget for 2018 was $682.49B, a 5.53% increase from 2017. U.S. military spending/defense budget for 2017 was $646.75B, a 1.08% increase from 2016. U.S. military spending/defense budget for 2016 was $639.86B, a 0.95% increase from 2015. Quote Is it all to keep us safe or to keep global dominance, or is that the same thing? Or was Major General Smedley Butler, right? And was Eisenhower right in his fairwell address? Was Truman right in his December 22 63 column? I can start busting out links too, you’ll say they aren't credible and i’ll say yours aren’t and we’ll rattle on for 3 days chasing tails. What credible links challenge anything I've pointed out about Trump's foreign policy? Trump endorsed military action in Iraq in 2002 on the Howard Stern Show. Trump repeatedly encouraged military response in Libya. He pulled out of the Iran nuke deal, put severe sanctions on Iran, assassinated their #2 leader. He aided the Saudis in their war in Yemen, increased drone strikes in Somalia and elsewhere. What credible challenge to these facts? Quote I am certain there will be more supporting links of your case as that’s the way the media portrayed it, there has been a massive journalistic push. Volume doesn’t equal truth. What massive journalistic push? Behind what? Quote Please understand, I view Republicans as responsible for a lot, I can’t hold the party up as a paragon of virtue. I can’t do that with Democrats either. History should tell you neither party are saints. Both have committed SCAD’s. Politics is a very dirty business and we get out hopes up every 4 years that some good actor is the one and we get the same. Chris I don't hold the Democrats up as paragons of virtue except when it comes to Democratic politicians like Stacey Abrams fighting to give every citizen equal access to the ballot. It's an asymetrical struggle. Edited April 30, 2021 by Cliff Varnell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Cole Posted April 30, 2021 Author Share Posted April 30, 2021 5 hours ago, W. Niederhut said: Benjamin, Here are the newly released WaPo/DOJ videos showing precisely where Sicknick was standing when he got sprayed. https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/interactive/2021/sicknick-attack-video/ Behind a paywall... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 5 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said: I love bashing Trump. I love pushing back on the Big Lies he's conned people into repeating. Defense spending nearly flat-lined under Obama before Trump accelerated it. U.S. military spending/defense budget for 2019 was $731.75B, a 7.22% increase from 2018. U.S. military spending/defense budget for 2018 was $682.49B, a 5.53% increase from 2017. U.S. military spending/defense budget for 2017 was $646.75B, a 1.08% increase from 2016. U.S. military spending/defense budget for 2016 was $639.86B, a 0.95% increase from 2015. What credible links challenge anything I've pointed out about Trump's foreign policy? Trump endorsed military action in Iraq in 2002 on the Howard Stern Show. Trump repeatedly encouraged military response in Libya. He pulled out of the Iran nuke deal, put severe sanctions on Iran, assassinated their #2 leader. He aided the Saudis in their war in Yemen, increased drone strikes in Somalia and elsewhere. What credible challenge to these facts? What massive journalistic push? Behind what? I don't hold the Democrats up as paragons of virtue except when it comes to giving every citizen equal access to the ballot. It's an asymetrical struggle. Thanks for getting back to me. Cliff, I did ask for the death toll abroad caused by US foreign policy under the Trump administration vs Obama, Clinton and the Bushes. It will tell a story I am sure. Regarding his endorsements you can see the full page ads he took out in the NY Times expressing dismay at foreign policy. That’s rare, a politician contradicting himself. 🙂 The other side of pulling out of the Iran nuke deal was that it was a bad deal IMHO. If they were indeed refusing inspections (media narrative). Thats a web of mystery in itself, as it was used as a pretext for the gulf war II. The same war Biden was in the oval office for the signing of the declaration of war with GW Bush and others, Biden was smiling all over his face. Perhaps he has changed his colours since then or there was another reason he was smiling his derriere off, other than America was about to sacrifice the lives of their young and civilian population of Iraq, just so a select few corporations could hit their profit targets. I think you have blinkers on if you couldn’t see the push to get him out of office in the media (Trump). Just look at the way reporters asked Biden questions in his first press conference vs Trumps more regular press conferences. Biden was reading from pre-written answers and cherry picking reporters. In American lingo, he was getting lay-ups. You seriously can’t see a difference in the media approach? Please understand, I didn’t post the link because I love that channel, or because I dislike Biden or am pining for the embarrassing orange man back, I posted it because it illustrates what a farce it was from both the media and the leader of the supposedly free world. I think giving every citizen eligible to vote equal access is important, we can agree there. I am glad you don’t hold the democrats up as a paragon of virtue. They deserve as much scrutiny as any other party. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 8 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said: Thanks for getting back to me. Cliff, I did ask for the death toll abroad caused by US foreign policy under the Trump administration vs Obama, Clinton and the Bushes. It will tell a story I am sure. I'm looking forward to your research in this area. 8 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said: Regarding his endorsements you can see the full page ads he took out in the NY Times expressing dismay at foreign policy. That’s rare, a politician contradicting himself. 🙂 The other side of pulling out of the Iran nuke deal was that it was a bad deal IMHO. If they were indeed refusing inspections (media narrative). Keeping Iran from getting a nuke for at least 15 years was a bad deal? What about Obama's famous "red line" in Syria in 2013? Assad was accused of gassing his own people and Obama said we couldn't let him cross that red line but before US troops were committed Obama threw it over to Congress where the military option was voted down. Obama then negotiated with Putin to remove 93% of Syria's chem warfare capability. 8 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said: Thats a web of mystery in itself, as it was used as a pretext for the gulf war II. The same war Biden was in the oval office for the signing of the declaration of war with GW Bush and others, Biden was smiling all over his face. Perhaps he has changed his colours since then or there was another reason he was smiling his derriere off, other than America was about to sacrifice the lives of their young and civilian population of Iraq, just so a select few corporations could hit their profit targets. Biden must have learned his lesson if he opposed the Libya intervention. https://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/joe-biden-libya-wrong-224595 8 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said: I think you have blinkers on if you couldn’t see the push to get him out of office in the media (Trump). Okay, Chris, now we are at the heart of our main disagreement. Trump brought all of his troubles on himself by being a transparently fascist hyper-narcissist. Trump's genius was to turn US cable news into a reality TV Show. If one didn't watch copious amounts of the Donald J Trump Show in 2016 they really don't get American politics. On October 28, 2016 the US intel community had embarrassing material on both Clinton and Trump. They found on the laptop of Anthony Weiner the sex pervert hundreds of thousands of Hillary's e-mails because his wife was a top Clinton aide; they had the Steele Dossier with its urinating prostitutes and Russian collusion. The Hillary Clinton E-Mail Show dominated American cable news for 11 straight days, right up to election day. Nothing on TV about the Steele Dossier. That should tell you who was the preferred choice of the Deep State. 8 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said: Just look at the way reporters asked Biden questions in his first press conference vs Trumps more regular press conferences. Biden was reading from pre-written answers and cherry picking reporters. In American lingo, he was getting lay-ups. You seriously can’t see a difference in the media approach? Please understand, I didn’t post the link because I love that channel, or because I dislike Biden or am pining for the embarrassing orange man back, I posted it because it illustrates what a farce it was from both the media and the leader of the supposedly free world. I don't get it. This seems to be an incredible over-reaction to a 78-year old guy using notes. That's the big knock on Biden -- he has to use notes? 8 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said: I think giving every citizen eligible to vote equal access is important, we can agree there. I am glad you don’t hold the democrats up as a paragon of virtue. They deserve as much scrutiny as any other party. Chris Let's reject false equivalencies with the same energy we reject false dichotomies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Niederhut Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said: Behind a paywall... The WaPo film clips clearly show Brian Sicknick being sprayed with a chemical, then retreating in distress. Also, I don't want to unfairly impugn Diaz's reputation, but, as a graduate of the top-rated medical school in the U.S., I'm underwhelmed by his C.V. He's a graduate of a foreign medical school in the D.R. who did a residency in Detroit. I remain skeptical of Diaz's conclusion that Sicknick's death was unrelated to the January 6th attack. What potential chemical toxins were screened for at autopsy? Why the 100 day delay in releasing his findings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Allison Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 Friendly advice- don't pretend there is an equivalence between nude protests at Parliament and 1/6 if you want to be taken seriously when discussing history and politics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 17 minutes ago, Matt Allison said: Friendly advice- don't pretend there is an equivalence between nude protests at Parliament and 1/6 if you want to be taken seriously when discussing history and politics... I think really that illustrates the point, perhaps its a little flippant but, from where I am standing the most powerful country on earth wasn’t nearly taken over by a bunch of people dressed like Jamiriqui or Davy Crocket. I do understand being at the epicentre of propaganda that it’s hard to look past it and it’s easier for someone at the periphery to have a clear perspective. It’s interesting that you’re calling it 1/6, like we did 9/11. I read a book recently by Lance De Haven-Smith called “Conspiracy Theory” in America, there is a lot about the CIA Psi-Op around the JFK assassination and linguistics. He also dedicates a section about 9/11, and the linguistics used there and affect in the public psyche. We had 20 years of the war on terror and the public nodded “we’ve gotta do this as we can’t have another 9/11”. If you use that term 1/6 for rioters busting into into the Capitol, I guarantee for the foreseeable future that any citizens expressing dissent against a sitting government, will be censored and marginalised using the excuse that we don’t want another 1/6. Linguistics are already being used about the threat of ‘domestic terrorism’. You’re losing free speech at an alarming rate. Your founding fathers invited criticism and dissent, they saw it as a vital part of a functioning democracy. JFK invited criticism of government, free speech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Cole Posted April 30, 2021 Author Share Posted April 30, 2021 41 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said: The WaPo film clips clearly show Brian Sicknick being sprayed with a chemical, then retreating in distress. Also, I don't want to unfairly impugn Diaz's reputation, but, as a graduate of the top-rated medical school in the U.S., I'm underwhelmed by his C.V. He's a graduate of a foreign medical school in the D.R. who did a residency in Detroit. I remain skeptical of Diaz's conclusion that Sicknick's death was unrelated to the January 6th attack. What potential chemical toxins were screened for at autopsy? Why the 100 day delay in releasing his findings? I looked at some clips on MSNBC and PBS of tussles between police and protestors, and I do not see Sicknick. There is one clip, that looks like him, after an event and behind the front lines, and he walks to a wall and rests briefly, appear to shake it off, and walks away. Are you able to link to a Youtube that shows an identifiable Sicknick being sprayed? The Diaz autopsy or medical examination is not online, that I can find. I cannot answer any questions about the autopsy. Diaz, of course, is from the DR. He was not a US citizen who could not get into a US medical school, and went foreign. Diaz appears to have earned positions of increasing importance through his career. It would interesting to have a Cyril Wecht, or someone of that calibre, review the Diaz autopsy. My guess is Diaz, an administrator in a Democratic Party stronghold, did not want to release the autopsy as Sicknick was lying in state, and so on. If anything, the pressure on Diaz would be to find that Sicknick died heroically battling rioters, preferably by a blow to the head. I am sure the Capitol Police wanted that version. Sure looks to me like Diaz did his job, kept as low as possible, and then released the results when it would cause less ripples. He played along as much as professional obligations would allow him. Probably, Diaz is deserving of admiration. The Democrats are the ruling party nationally, and in DC, and we live in extraordinarily polarized times. Sicknick had been manufactured into a hero by the Democratic Party, laid to rest in the Rotunda. But Diaz did his job. That's my take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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