The first "missed shot"

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Mark Tyler said:

It's rather interesting how some witnesses changed their stories to be more conspiracy or lone nut oriented.  I think it's best to ignore all of the late statements and focus on the early comments from 1963/4.

Pierce Allman said something different.  It didn't fit the "known" facts.  For this he becomes a false witness.  I don't think so.  Elsie Dorman captured Pierce Allman and associate.  I always forget this guy's name.  Terry Ford I believe.  They were on the SW corner of the intersection of Houston and Main.  Directly across from the SW corner of the TSBD.

 

As far as I know he told basically the same story through time.

OBTW, where is his photos and the photos of Ford?

[John Butler]

8 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

It was Specter that drew the TSBD building on that rough map. Note that he has drawn the building as an obvious rectangle, not a square. The lower part of the building running down the Elm Street extension ends right behind the pergola as seen on the map below.

Tony,

As you said it was a rough map.  How do we know that Specter drew a rectangle for a square?  He knew what he was doing.  When Jean Hill filled it in he had to act in a manner that was professional and accept what she said.  I think Hill said he was arrogant and insulting or some such.  It was an adversary questioning.  He later filed this "inaccurate" drawing away as Top Secret.  That says a lot about it's authenticity and accuracy.  That definitely is not the official story.  

It doesn't matter what I think.  I have fought this battle before and the argument is still there.  Most people believe what they see in the so-called self authenticating films and photos.  Divergent thought is not allowed.  Let's look at it this way.

Jean Hill said she and Mary were directly across the street from a group of people.  This caused Jean to yell at the President and attract his attention from that crowd to them so they could take a picture.

In the photo I have several ?s representing the crowd that Jean said was across the street.  If you consult the various media you will see there is no crowd in that area.  So, we must be talking about another area.

MJ represents Mary and Jean.  I have them there twice since I may have put the first slightly off where the films show they were.  I hope I got Zapruder right.  I always screw up his location.  After looking at it, it doesn't seem right.

Jean Hill said exactly where she was.  

"Mr. SPECTER - Were you beyond the westernmost point of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mrs. HILL - No.
Mr. SPECTER - You were still in front of that building?
Mrs. HILL - That's right.
Mr. SPECTER - Now, is the letter "B" now in the position where you were when you first saw that man?
Mrs. HILL - Yes."

Edited May 14, 2021 by John Butler

[John Butler]

On 5/13/2021 at 6:10 PM, Tony Krome said:

The earliest witness statements, I've found, are usually more accurate. A later "embellishment" example would be Frazier where we have him seeing a man placing a rifle into the trunk of car parked on the Elm St extension minutes after the shootings.

I would consider Marion Baker's second statement as an embellishment to fit Roy Truly's story.

[John Butler]

On 5/13/2021 at 3:53 PM, Mark Tyler said:

"Mr Skelton noticed that as an open limousine turned on Elm Street, it had moved approximately one hundred feet at which time he noticed dust spray up from the street in front of the car on the driver's side."

100 feet after the turn puts Mary and Jean on the SW corner of Houston and Elm about where Pierce Allman was.  That is if a bullet struck the pavement in front of her.  And, that is under the trees that so many of TSBD witnesses said that was where the p. limo was when they heard shooting.

I don't think people will accept that.  It just messes up all of their thinking and work.

[John Butler]

7 hours ago, Richard Price said:

Further corroboration of Jean Hill's testimony in pictures (without Arlen Specter's obfuscation).  Notice the lady in red at the top of the stairs above/beyond the "Babushka" lady.

That's an image from the Bell film.  The Babushka Lady had not arrived in that area yet.  This is clearly seen in a later photo.  This is the Lady in Blue disguised as the Babushka Lady.  I refer you to the Muchmore film where this transformation is shown.  This is about a minute after the assassination and does not reflect where Jean first went up the Hill.  Or, if it does it contradicts what she said in her testimony about running there directly after the p. limo left.

[John Butler]

3 hours ago, Mark Tyler said:

Indeed, Jean Hill seems awfully unpopular with researchers but I'm not sure what all of the fuss is about.  Her early statements seem fine to me, and her TV interviews are crystal clear about what she saw and heard.  If we had to ignore each witness whose statements contained errors or omissions we wouldn't listen to any of the witnesses at all!  Yes, the lurid rubbish she came out with in the 1980's and later was pretty embarrassing, but why pick on Jean Hill?  Many other witnesses seemed to radically change their stories over time such as Pierce Allman

Mark,

I agree to some extent.  But, we have to be careful we don't fasten unto our own pre-conceived notions.  What I saw of Allmen's testimony he said he was on the corner of Houston and Elm and not about 100 feet down Elm across the street from the SW corner of the TSBD.

People pick on Jean Hill not for what she said later, but for what she said at the time.  I agree this is unfair treatment, but this is what they first used to discredit her.  And, she had to be discredited.  The puppy/flowers and the man on the hill/Jack Ruby and other things were used.  Her location is the biggest turnoff from both sides.  She has to be down from Zapruder and up from the steps on the south side of Elm.  People fight over this now and then.  Don't move Mary into the street or you will be accused of heresy.

[John Butler]

9 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

It was Specter that drew the TSBD building on that rough map. Note that he has drawn the building as an obvious rectangle, not a square. The lower part of the building running down the Elm Street extension ends right behind the pergola as seen on the map below.

 

Anyone know the age of that photo?  If just after the assassination and not later in years it seems Altgens would have had a difficult time taking a shot of the TSBD doorway due to the trees.  I don't think camera angles would apply.  So, this must be at a later time.  But, looking at the vehicles it maybe not much later.

Edited May 14, 2021 by John Butler

[Tony Krome]

41 minutes ago, John Butler said:

MJ represents Mary and Jean.

This may help

[John Butler]

18 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

This may help

Thanks Tony,

That's not a good spot for them.  Camera angles may be messing with your line of sight.  But, the point is there was not a crowd there below the Stemmons sign.

If I got Zapruder right and didn't err they have to be down Elm from Zapruder a bit more.

Where is the crowd?

Edited May 15, 2021 by John Butler

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

But, the point is there was not a crowd there below the Stemmons sign.

If you refer to the picture I supplied, which would be generally where Hill was, then across the road to the north and north/east would be the "Stemmons People" and the "Mannequin People"

Importantly, in the context of how she described those people, is when she was looking up Elm Street watching the limo come towards her: "I was so afraid he was going to look the other way because there were a lot of people across the street"

Jean Hill is looking north/east at the limo, and she is worried that he may look at the people across the street rather than her. So in her north/east field of view, there is both the people across the street and the limo.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Tony Krome

[John Butler]

Tony,

Sorry, we'll just have to differ.  "a lot of people across the street"   Means to me just that.  Not up the street to the northeast, but across the street from where Jean Hill was standing.   And, that leads to the biggest argument of all.  

Which I do not want to get into.  It seems to me I'm just rehashing old stuff.  I am going to sign off on this. 

[Tony Krome]

50 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Sorry, we'll just have to differ.  "a lot of people across the street"   Means to me just that.  Not up the street to the northeast, but across the street from where Jean Hill was standing.   And, that leads to the biggest argument of all. 

Thats ok. For what its worth, I imagine Jean Hill had this scene in mind when she described it to Specter. The scene includes a lot of people, the limo approaching, and the TSBD.

[Ron Bulman]

49 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Thats ok. For what its worth, I imagine Jean Hill had this scene in mind when she described it to Specter. The scene includes a lot of people, the limo approaching, and the TSBD.

I can almost see the hole in the windshield.  But the people and the TSBD seem to be a little out of focus, maybe kind of fuzzy.  Maybe it's the three beers and a pain pill.

 

[Tony Krome]

On 5/15/2021 at 12:51 PM, Ron Bulman said:

But the people and the TSBD seem to be a little out of focus, maybe kind of fuzzy.

The background was Moorman's polaroid. Fuzzy, but at least a good Jean Hill perspective

 

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Tony Krome

[John Butler]

I think we can use Tony's photo for "self authenticating" evidence, or whatever that term was that the Altgens 6 photo is legitimate.  

This is the first piece of proof that I can accept that Altgens 6 is legitimate or maybe not.  I am as confused as the fellows in the video.  Maybe I need to take my morning meds.