An interesting problem involving Seymour Weitzman

[John Butler]

As some of you might know, I have been working on a particular Dealey Plaza problem for some time.  This problem involves witnesses who saw or heard something different than the official story.

Gil Jesus mentioned Weitzman in his recent post and I did a quick look up on Weitzman and ran across this at Spartacus Educational:

“(1) Seymour Weitzman, interviewed by Joe Ball on behalf of the Warren Commission on 1st April, 1964.

Joe Ball: On November 22, 1963, around noon, where were you?

Seymour Weitzman: I was standing on the corner of Main and Houston.

Joe Ball: Did you see the President's car pass?

Seymour Weitzman: Yes, sir; we did. We watched the President pass and we turned and started back to the courthouse when we heard the shots.

Joe Ball: You say you turned and were starting back to the courthouse - what courthouse and what is the location of that courthouse?

Seymour Weitzman: Sitting on Main, Houston, Record and so forth. We were at the back side and we turned around and were going into the Main Street entrance. We made maybe three or four steps when we heard what we thought at that time was either a rifle shot or a firecracker, I mean at that second.

Joe Ball: How many shots did you hear?

Seymour Weitzman: Three distinct shots.

Joe Ball: How were they spaced?

Seymour Weitzman: First one, then the second two seemed to be simultaneously.

Joe Ball: You mean the first and then there was a pause?

Seymour Weitzman: There was a little period in between the second and third shot.

Joe Ball: What was the longest, between the first and second or the second and third shot; which had the longest time lapse in there?

Seymour Weitzman: Between the first and second shot.

Joe Ball: What did you do then?

Seymour Weitzman: I immediately ran toward the President's car. Of course, it was speeding away and somebody said the shots or the firecrackers, whatever it was at that time, we still didn't know the President was shot, came from the wall. I immediately scaled that wall.

Joe Ball: What is the location of that wall?

Seymour Weitzman: It would be between the railroad overpass and I can't remember the name of that little street that runs off Elm; it's cater-corner - the section there between the - what do you call it - the monument section...”

The question here is did Weitzman hear shooting on Houston Street?  He said he was standing on the corner of Main and Houston Street.  The p. limo passes and he turns and walks 3 or 4 steps toward the entrance and then hears shots or firecrackers as most people say.

First off his location is uncertain.  He said he was at the back side of the Court House.  I think he either misspoke here or didn’t state his position correctly.  He may have meant the backside of the Court House as the Main Street side.  He originally said he was standing on the corner of Main and Houston.   This statement can be verified.  Here is a montage showing photos of Seymour Weitzman and a man in the Altgen photo who looks remarkably like him:

 

That Altgens photo 4 in the lower portion of the montage shows the p.limo turning the corner at Main and Houston.  I believe this photo shows Seymour Weitzman and his location at the corner of the new Court House.  I believe Weitzman is calling the Main Street side of the Court House the back side.

He is standing with several other known witnesses.  Jim Featherstone and the Babushka Lady are visible in the photo.  Only this lady is not the alleged Babushka Lady seen Elm Street.

One other problem, I believe this person identified by the red arrow has been identified as some one else.  To me, this is Seymour Weitzman.

He said the p. limo passed him and he walked 3 or 4 steps towards the Main Street entrance of the Court House and then he heard shots.

3 or 4 steps would indicate the p. limo was still on Main Street.  Shooting on Main Street??  Would someone help with this problem?

[Steve Thomas]

47 minutes ago, John Butler said:

He said the p. limo passed him and he walked 3 or 4 steps towards the Main Street entrance of the Court House and then he heard shots.

3 or 4 steps would indicate the p. limo was still on Main Street.  Shooting on Main Street??  Would someone help with this problem?

John,

We don't know how much time elapsed between the time the limo passed him, and the time he turned to go back to the courthouse. He may have stood around the corner for a while watching other cars in the motorcade, or just sitting around jawing with the other deputy he was with, Bill Hutton.

He told the WC that, "I immediately ran toward the President's car. Of course, it was speeding away...".

The car wasn't speeding anywhere while it was still on Houston.

A question for me is, was Seymour Weitzman the Deputy Sheriff who was with DPD Office Joe Marshal Smith when Smith encountered a Secret Service Agent behind the Grassy Knoll?

DPD Officer, Joe Marshal Smith:

Smith told the Warren Commission that, “Of course, I wasn't alone. There was some deputy sheriff with me, and I believe one Secret Service man when I got there.

Smith told author Anthony Summers that he had. As he said to Summers, “The man, this character produced credentials from his hip pocket which showed him to be Secret Service. I have seen those credentials before, and they satisfied me and the deputy sheriff.”

Deputy Weitzman told Warren Commission Counsel Joseph Ball that at the time of the assassination, he was standing at the corner of Main And Houston Sts. At the sound of the shots, he immediately ran into Dealey Plaza and scaled the wall that runs between the railroad tracks and the Elm St. Extension. Counsel Ball asked him if he noticed anything in the railroad yards. Weitzman answered, “We noticed numerous kinds of footprints that did not make sense because they were going different directions”. Mr. Ball asked if there were other people there. Weitzman replied, “Yes, sir; other officers, Secret Service as well..."

Steve Thomas

[Joe Bauer]

I don't think the man pointed out with an arrow in the Houston Street photo is Weitzman.

For several reasons.

The man in the photo is very tall. Even further back than everyone else, he is still taller than them all.

Weitzman was not a tall man. Maybe even short?

The "Arrow" man also has a very big head and very large lower jaw. Both bigger than Weitzman's for sure.

The Arrow man is standing by himself, with no one close to him. Weitzman stated he was standing with at least one other fellow officer if not more.

To me, the Arrow man looks very much like Gerry Patrick Hemming.

Same head and jaw size and shape. And the Arrow man has a hair cut like Hemming has been photographed with in at least one photo of him in his Marine uniform. Same hair color as well.

The two older men in the photo in the lower left look like twins. Both are wearing similar type glasses. Both wearing the same fedoras. Same height and build. Same suit and tie type. Same expression.

The twin man on the left with his right hand touching his fedora looks just like Rip Robertson to me.

There is also another suspiciously interesting man in the photo ( I believe it is an expanded version ) that looks like Lucien Conein to me as well.

What age was Lucien Conein in 1963?  44?

The Conein look-alike looks to be in his mid-forties to early fifties.

The lady in sunglasses and a scarf looks to me like a man in drag.

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by Joe Bauer

[Benjamin Cole]

Seymour Weitzman (0n timing of shots): "First one, then the second two seemed to be simultaneously."

For me, this is yet another forgotten nugget.

Weitzman was a police officer, who had owned a gun shop. 

Do you think he might be familiar with gunfire?

Weitzman must have known a single-shot bolt action rifle cannot deliver two shots "simultaneously." 

 

 

[John Butler]

20 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

We don't know how much time elapsed between the time the limo passed him, and the time he turned to go back to the courthouse. He may have stood around the corner for a while watching other cars in the motorcade, or just sitting around jawing with the other deputy he was with, Bill Hutton.

Steve,

 

21 hours ago, John Butler said:

Seymour Weitzman: Yes, sir; we did. We watched the President pass and we turned and started back to the courthouse when we heard the shots.

Joe Ball: You say you turned and were starting back to the courthouse - what courthouse and what is the location of that courthouse?

Seymour Weitzman: Sitting on Main, Houston, Record and so forth. We were at the back side and we turned around and were going into the Main Street entrance. We made maybe three or four steps when we heard what we thought at that time was either a rifle shot or a firecracker, I mean at that second.

Seymour Weitz said at that "second".  Meaning, I take it as immediately.  If you look at the Altgens photo there is only 3 or 4 steps to be around the corner and looking down Houston.  

Now, to the question is the man in the Altgens photo Lucien Conein?  I think not based on the following:

  

Another person that was suggested was Gerry Hemming:

Hemming is closer in appearance to the man that I think is Weitzman.  But, except for height I see little resemblance.  

The thing about the witnesses that say something different from what was the official story is that somewhere in their testimony there will be statements that make you doubt what is being said is credible.  The idea of speeding on Houston Street is foreign to most folks studying the assassination.  Either the witness was confused or the WC interrogators confused them and what was later written as their testimony was changed by the WC folk or in the FBI in prior testimony the witnesses had to agree to.   

 

[John Butler]

14 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Seymour Weitzman (0n timing of shots): "First one, then the second two seemed to be simultaneously."

For me, this is yet another forgotten nugget.

Weitzman was a police officer, who had owned a gun shop. 

Do you think he might be familiar with gunfire?

Weitzman must have known a single-shot bolt action rifle cannot deliver two shots "simultaneously." 

 

 

Benjamin,

I believe you are right.  The info on the net about him said nothing about owning a gun store.  But, I believe Roger Craig said he did.  And, that is what I thought all the time.  Most men of that era had some experience with guns either from hunting or serving in the military.

[Joe Bauer]

Weitzman was in the military. No matter his duty in the service, all enlisted men back then had some gun handling, cleaning and firing training. Even if just in boot camp.

Combined with his sporting goods/gun shop ownership, he had to have had much more hands on experience with guns ( especially rifles) than the average person. You don't sell hunting rifles if you don't know these guns.

This fact logically sets Weitzman's "two shots simultaneously" testimony apart in the credibility department imo.

Referring back to the Houston Street sidewalk photo; look at the tall big head and jaw "Arrow" man in the right back again.

Using the horizontal break line between the large wall stones in the background, notice the arrow man's head is a good 5, 6 or even 7 inches above that break line. That is a very tall man.

No one else in the photo comes close to this man's height.

Hemming was what...6 ft. 9 inches in height?

Also, regarding the tall, thin faced, bespectacled lower left man with his right hand upraised and touching his fedora, I have seen photo's of Rip Robertson that are dead ringer ones for this man in this photo. I'll see if I can find them and post some.

Seems Houston Street and the sidewalk pedestrians on this while JFK passed by is a potential rogues gallery of suspicious characters. Even if they aren't the nefarious JFK hating people some have suggested, one must admit they really look suspiciously similar to them.

Rip Robertson, Gerry Hemming, Lucien Conein, Joseph Milteer, etc.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Joe Bauer

[John Butler]

19 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Seems Houston Street and the sidewalk pedestrians on this while JFK passed by is a potential rogues gallery of suspicious characters. Even if they aren't the nefarious JFK hating people some have suggested, one must admit they really look suspiciously similar to them.

Joe,

Across the street is the Old Court House.  It has an upper floor or deck which people can come out on and look at parades that go down Main.  I have always thought this would be the best place for "elite" viewers of the assassination.  I would think people working the JFKA would be on the streets or in court rooms of the New Court House.  But, in some of the films (don't remember which) either Muchmore or Hughes you get a look at this area.

The man in the photo is tall, but I don't think he is the same height as Gerry Hemming.

I just noticed in the Altgens photo there is a lovely lady photographing the p. limo.  I wander where her film went and why we haven't heard anything about her and her film or photographs?  This is not a lone incident of ignoring a photographer and not seeing her film.

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by John Butler

[Sean Coleman]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

Joe,

Across the street is the Old Court House.  It has an upper floor or deck which people can come out on and look at parades that go down Main.  I have always thought this would be the best place for "elite" viewers of the assassination.  I would think people working the JFKA would be on the streets or in court rooms of the New Court House.  But, in some of the films (don't remember which) either Muchmore or Hughes you get a look at this area.

The man in the photo is tall, but I don't think he is the same height as Gerry Hemming.

I just noticed in the Altgens photo there is a lovely lady photographing the p. limo.  I wander where her film went and why we haven't heard anything about her and her film or photographs?  This is not a lone incident of ignoring a photographer and not seeing her film.

 

Next to the man wearing a velvet evening glove doing a poopoo salute? She maybe shielding her eyes from the sun, unclear

[David Andrews]

The same man on Main Street suspected of being Hemming or Weitzman appears to be standing below the NE pergola (which faces Houston) in background of the Cancellare photo of bystanders crossing Elm to the Grassy Knoll.  Sorry, but I can't upload the large pic at this link right now.

https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=33&pos=8

There may be clearer versions of the pic available elsewhere.

You can see how tall this man is in relation to the pergola and to the woman nearby.  The man seems to be conversing with a uniformed policeman standing above him in the pergola.

[John Butler]

Here's an interesting thing about Weitzman.  According to an internet video he identified, from a photo, a man who he thought was a Secret Service man.  The SS man was Bernard Barker, former FBI agent and future Watergate burgler.

BERNARND BARKER WAS FAKE SS AGENT BEHIND FENCE JFK MURDER WATERGATE CIA AGENTS - YouTube

Right click and select open in a new window.

[John Butler]

14 hours ago, David Andrews said:

The same man on Main Street suspected of being Hemming or Weitzman appears to be standing below the NE pergola (which faces Houston) in background of the Cancellare photo of bystanders crossing Elm to the Grassy Knoll.  Sorry, but I can't upload the large pic at this link right now.

https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=33&pos=8

There may be clearer versions of the pic available elsewhere.

You can see how tall this man is in relation to the pergola and to the woman nearby.  The man seems to be conversing with a uniformed policeman standing above him in the pergola.

Dana,

That is an interesting notion.  The policeman (I see as very vague) has a black hat on which says he was probably a Dallas Police reserve officer.  The person who you identified could be Weitzman, but I am not sure since the magnification of area is still very blurred.

I can't find any information on how tall Seymour Weitzman was.  Some one suggested he was short.  But, I don't think that person was sure of his height.

It would be good to know.

[John Butler]

Someone suggested that the lady taking a photo was shading her eyes in the Altgens 3 photo.  No one else is doing that in the photo.  I take it she was taking a photo.

The entire photo shows this clearly.  She has a camera rather than her purse shading her eyes.  OBTW, this photo demonstrates that the man thought to be Seymour Weitzman in comparison to others is not that tall and not Hemming's height.  But, there is a giant man with a black hat there directly behind the motorcycle policeman.

This blowup of that portion of Altgens 3 shows the lady with a camera.

[John Butler]

Former Abilenian Gene Boone, who found rifle used to kill JFK, dies

Timothy Chipp

 

This quote is from later in the article.  Would his confiscation of cameras be considered an illegal search and seizure?  I wonder how many Dallas County officers seized cameras?  How many DPD officers?  Were they instructed to do that?  There are at least 14 unknown camera people at a minimum in Dealey Plaza.

“Several bystanders had cameras, and Boone said he confiscated them in case anyone had captured anything relevant on their film. He took the cameras back to the Sheriff's Office and left the film to be developed. Then Boone and other deputies went to the book depository to begin a search.”

Edited June 24, 2021 by John Butler