New medical winess? RFK aide John Nolan interviewed by Lamar Waldron

[Micah Mileto]

Saw this recent thread on the reopenkennedycase forum, never heard of this: https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2491-lamar-waldron-interview-with-new-info-from-rfk-aide-on-jfks-autopsy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4GEHn3HeI8

 

Quote

Sorry I can’t post a link because I’m new, but please see interview with Lamar Waldron dated 22 November 2021 on Thom Hartmann’s Youtube channel.

Waldron describes an interview he did with John Nolan (former RFK aide) who died 2 years ago.

Key points:
- JFK and RFK had put in place a contingency plan for any assassinations of US Government Officials and Diplomats, because of the toxic relationship with Cuba, and the JCS hawks were desperate for an excuse to invade Cuba and nuke Russia. The contingency plan was - whoever was assassinated, fly the body back to D.C. for a phoney autopsy, and put out a cover story to prevent the JCS and the public from demanding WW3.
- this is why JFK’s autopsy couldn’t happen in Texas.
- at Bethesda they did a quicky pre-autopsy for National Security. This is where the caskets were switched, they found another bullet in the casket from the back wound, and this is when the throat wound was enlarged (rooting around to find where the bullet went).
- RFK directed the real autopsy by telephone from another room in Bethesda, to make sure they didn’t find any gun shots from the front etc.

This all does give a much simpler Occam’s razor (pardon the pun) explanation for the botched autopsy, the massive cover-up, and why they quickly decided on the lone nut narrative.

Also mentioned is that Dave Powers told Waldron and Hartmann (back in the 90’s) that he saw 2 shots from the grassy knoll. Powers was in the follow-up limo so he had a good view.

 

[Larry Hancock]

Lamar and I discussed this many years ago and I was actually able to find some documentation on the contingency planning and to the state it was in circa 1963.   It was primarily targeted on attacks occurring overseas but there was discussion beyond that anticipated the need to do media control to prevent overreaction - especially knee jerk military reaction which JFK and RFK were very concerned about following the missile crisis.

The planning involved setting up a special set of protocols, and began not long after the missile crisis, underway by early 1963.  Interestingly enough, due to the concerns that a perceived Cuban act would trigger it, the first person assigned to lead the effort was William Harvey.  This is actually documented in newspaper coverage.

If you have SWHT 2010 I cover this to the level I think we can actually document - unfortunately it appears the one group which had not been called in early on was the Secret Service, because of the concerns that the incidents would involve American diplomats or commercial figures overseas.   However I have often thought that some of the planning did drive certain of the very early "damage control / media containment" efforts

 

[Eddy Bainbridge]

Mr Hancock ,I wonder could you comment on the claim that Bobby Kennedy was involved in the Contingency planning, which subsequently included managing his brother's autopsy?

[Larry Hancock]

Eddy,  as I recall RFK was indeed involved in the planning - whether directly or by having his staff participate (as Lamar's interview suggests).   Certainly RFK was very much aware of it - as well as being aware of JFK's desire not to let matters run away during a crisis and provoke a military reaction that would get out of control.  The missile crisis had a huge psychological effect on JFK and to a lesser extent RFK as both had seen how quickly things could go off the rails - for that matter so had the Sec of Defense,  which is why both RFK and Sec Def had gone to visit CINCLANT and directly ordered him not just to go by standard Navy practices but to refer any engagement decisions to the White House.

I'd have to go back and dig up what I wrote in SWHT to see if I found any further details but I suspect the contingency planning might have been discussed in some of the new Cuba Coordinating Committee meeting, just not sure about that.

As far as managing the autopsy itself,  I don't think RFK really did that as we now know he sighed off on a complete autopsy protocol.  My guess is that any involvement with materials from the autopsy may have occurred between Burkley and RFK after the fact.  I'm pretty sure I even speculated that may have been to preserve evidence in the event RFK was ever in the position to order a new inquiry into the assassination.

[Richard Price]

20 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

The planning involved setting up a special set of protocols, and began not long after the missile crisis, underway by early 1963.  Interestingly enough, due to the concerns that a perceived Cuban act would trigger it, the first person assigned to lead the effort was William Harvey.

I have to say, in my view, this may be one of the missing puzzle pieces.  In the words better spoken by the late great, Norm Crosby (one of my favorites), I think you may have just killed one bird with two stones.  This emergency planning just may be be both the corner stone and the key stone of the JFK assassination.  There were people all around JFK at the highest levels of his government agencies, who, some known & some not, were plotting and planning his demise.  Seeing this information was like one of those "Aha!  That is it, Watson!" moments in a Sherlock Holmes mystery for me.  If the information is out there somewhere, it may be the Rosetta stone as well.  I could see the official contingency plan as having been known by one or more unscrupulous, corrupt individual whose back was to the wall and who was capable of very astute planning, manipulation of persons around him and with access to others also having the levers of power and similar sentiment.  All it would have taken was some back room idle chatter about how the levers could be pulled and all the "problems" that would disappear if implemented.  I wonder if the origin dates of this contingency plan can be determined, if it might not line up with some of the other things you have been slowly pegging down, might come into clearer focus (the cornerstone).  This would fall right in line with other operations run by the CIA which were learned about and co-oped or piggy backed, only this time INSIDE the US.  I think the thought of using one of JFK/RFK's own plans ON them would have been relished and even joked about within this small group.  I am no scholar on the inner workings of the JFK administration nor the assassination planning, but it all fits.  LBJ had great control of many things in Texas, had access to much information within the White House, was extremely corrupt and a master manipulator/strategist.  He stood to gain the most by JFK's death and would have the greatest power afterward if it succeeded.  I will not assume that he is definitely the one, but he has all the necessary equipment to do the job, including longstanding relationships with the necessary conspirators.  The contingency plan is how they were to succeed and cover up the entire thing (the keystone).  Without the contingency plan, it all becomes extremely dangerous, with the contingency plan, all the power is held in the hands of the plotters.  Please let me know if you think this is plausible in your estimation.  If it is, the genesis of the assassination as a viable, survivable plan for the plotters, is somewhere soon after the validation of this contingency planning to keep the US from over reacting and can be blamed on JFK and RFK, putting RFK squarely in the middle and probably figuring it out pretty quickly, but unable to say much, if anything.  The cards were supremely played in my estimation.

[Larry Hancock]

I surely wish we had more details, when I have time I will try to dig up the reference in SWHT - I know its there and I even had a hard copy of one of the newspaper reports talking about the formation of the group and the effort (which of course made the whole idea pretty public).   At this point we can say at least two things,  the contingency planning was initially led by William Harvey given that it the concerns were about a knee jerk reaction against Cuba and the thought that radicals like Che might go off the reservation even from Fidel. Which is especially interesting for me since Harvey is the individual I personally consider may have given the initial push towards a conspiracy against the president,  and the person who had the right connections in Miami to get it started.

But at this point it is a matter of record that there was a concern at the highest level, JFK and even RFK, that it was an issue, that planning was being done at the White House level to maintain control over anything that looked like a high profile action against American officials and that it would have been something on peoples minds. JFK had been working hard at instilling the mantra of not overreacting and crisis control.

Its hard to think that adding that to the risk posed by Oswald's connections to the FBI and CIA would not have led to plotters to consider that the system might well freeze in place if their plan included pointing the attack towards Castro and Cuba.  That may also have been something the hugest level plotters might not have shared with the field guys recruited to put an attack and frame in place. 

 

[Eddy Bainbridge]

Many thanks for your engagement Larry. I want to push you a little on your dealings with Lamar Waldron. He is stating he has discussed with Bobby Kennedy's aid his involvement in the autopsy. Are you refuting Waldron's interpretation of these events? I think you are accepting of RFK's involvement of the contingency planning, but I don't think you are seeing this as quite as significant as Waldron is. I suspect the autopsy is an area you may not wish to specifically engage in, but I think the conflicting evidence allows of two possibilities ; The body was crudely and rapidly altered before the autopsy, or (my preference) the autopsy was conducted with direction from outsiders so that the large hole in the back of JFK's head (and the throat wound) was conflated with exploratory procedure during the autopsy(e.g brain removal).

[Larry Hancock]

Well its certainly fair to say Lamar and I don't agree on a  number of things, that would be no surprise to him as we always discussed our separate views in a friendly manner.  

I've not really seen Lamar engage with much of the newer information about the autopsy including the revelation that RFK signed off on a full autopsy protocol nor take a position on Burkley's claim that he himself had personal evidence supporting the view of multiple shooters. I also don't recall Lamars detailed discussion of the autopsy or if he revised his view prior to Doug Horne and all the ARRB revelations about it - I certainly did and offer my view of matters at the autopsy in considerable detail on SWHT 2010.

That view is basically that the official picture of the wounds evolved in an iterative as the forensics evidence was controlled over some 72 hours. I base that primarily on Doug's work and on William Law's work with the two FBI agents and their very early report, which I do trust given that it undermines so much of the official autopsies (not to mention their own views on the Doctors) as well as the issue of multiple autopsy reports.  In any event my view is in SWHT and I really don't recall how that coincides with Lamar.   Certainly I don't think RFK was controlling the autopsy in some fashion, on the other hand he may very  well have obtained some materials after the fact via Burkley and controlled those for a time at least. 

In reference to the contingency plan, as far as I can tell there was no concrete plan in place as of the assassination, not something detailed out with specific authorities in place that would have been exercised quickly in a totally controlled fashion.  In contrast I think the planning and JFKs own prior concerns and admonitions would have set a context, especially among JFKs aides and staff, that would have supported taking positive media control of the situation, and slowing down any immediate reaction against possible foreign actors. 

 

[John Butler]

I believe Bobby Kennedy said he supported the Warren Commission conclusions up the day he died.  Can anyone explain that?

[Joe Bauer]

2 hours ago, John Butler said:

I believe Bobby Kennedy said he supported the Warren Commission conclusions up the day he died.  Can anyone explain that?

To say otherwise would have ruined him as a viable candidate for the presidency.

He "had" to say that.

[Richard Price]

52 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

He "had" to say that.

Joe, as you said, he did have to say that in public.  As I said (probably poorly) in my post of 01/06, the coverup being run was part of his and JFK's contingency plan on making sure that things didn't get out of hand during a scenario just like what had happened.  My guess is that he would have understood why the contingency plan was being invoked and due to his being a part of it's original planning, would have endorsed it.  I don't think it took him long to figure out how the very people it was supposed to "control" were using it against him/JFK and as a complete cover-up for those responsible for carrying out the assassination.  I think he knew pretty quickly that there was no participation from a group that could have caused an international emergency nor merited military action.  He was ensnared by the very plan he had helped originate, just long enough that there was no way out.  His only way to come to terms with this, is to wait, attain enough power (the Presidency), and then expose the people and planning behind the assassination.  This is why he was killed.  He also would have known that he had to be tight lipped and keep this knowledge to himself.

As a secondary thought, the use of the contingency plan tells me why there has been the many years of success in keeping a lid on the truth.  The contingency plan "IS" the "TOP SECRET" in the assassination.  It, and it's usage defines who was behind the assassination.  The contingency plan gave the planners free reign to classify things which otherwise could not have been classified Top Secret (and above).  This allowed for classification of things totally unrelated to the assassination to be included.  I have now, since Larry Hancock mentioned the "contingency plan" for the first time (to my knowledge) a few days ago come to think of it as the Rosetta stone to the whole assassination.

The contingency plan was not used after the fact for it's original purposes, it was used proactively as part of the planning, with the end goal of it's invocation causing the plotters to not only succeed, but to continue on with impunity.  They would hold the levers of power and the power of "National Security" to head off any and all who would question.  It was like having a "Get Out of Jail" card in hand before committing the act.  It is my hope that Larry and others who have the abilities and resources will now explore this contingency plan with the same zeal and success that they have applied to all the other things they have brought to light.  I hope my insights help.  This is not a "pet" idea and I am not stating anything as fact.  I only hope that this idea will be explored by those who know so much more on the subject.  In the end, my only hope has been and is, that the facts around the assassination (and hopefully the perpetrators) will be found in my lifetime.  I have been following and trying to add to the understanding since June 6, 1968 (age 12+) when I knew for sure, things were not right.

[Eddy Bainbridge]

24 minutes ago, Richard Price said:

Joe, as you said, he did have to say that in public.  As I said (probably poorly) in my post of 01/06, the coverup being run was part of his and JFK's contingency plan on making sure that things didn't get out of hand during a scenario just like what had happened.  My guess is that he would have understood why the contingency plan was being invoked and due to his being a part of it's original planning, would have endorsed it.  I don't think it took him long to figure out how the very people it was supposed to "control" were using it against him/JFK and as a complete cover-up for those responsible for carrying out the assassination.  I think he knew pretty quickly that there was no participation from a group that could have caused an international emergency nor merited military action.  He was ensnared by the very plan he had helped originate, just long enough that there was no way out.  His only way to come to terms with this, is to wait, attain enough power (the Presidency), and then expose the people and planning behind the assassination.  This is why he was killed.  He also would have known that he had to be tight lipped and keep this knowledge to himself.

As a secondary thought, the use of the contingency plan tells me why there has been the many years of success in keeping a lid on the truth.  The contingency plan "IS" the "TOP SECRET" in the assassination.  It, and it's usage defines who was behind the assassination.  The contingency plan gave the planners free reign to classify things which otherwise could not have been classified Top Secret (and above).  This allowed for classification of things totally unrelated to the assassination to be included.  I have now, since Larry Hancock mentioned the "contingency plan" for the first time (to my knowledge) a few days ago come to think of it as the Rosetta stone to the whole assassination.

I have a more cautious view of a 'Contingency Plan' . I think it is an extremely good way to explain RFK's conduct and also LBJ's. What I think Larry Hancock is indicating is that there is insufficient documentary evidence to call it a formal plan. At this stage it may not turn out to be no more than a thought process conducted by persons who engaged in actions that steered the narrative away from 'World war III' provocation. 

What was more important, preventing war, or determining who killed the president. I would say preventing war. 

[John Butler]

3 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

To say otherwise would have ruined him as a viable candidate for the presidency.

He "had" to say that.

Thanks Joe,

I agree on that plus other things that he had to be quiet on.

[Kirk Gallaway]

Micah, I posted the Thom Hartmann interview with Waldron a couple of weeks ago. It's actually very well presented because Hartmann had collaborated with Waldron on his earlier JFKA books.

There is no middle ground here. Waldron alleges the autopsy was supervised by RFK through Burkeley. Executing according "to plan" as to control the narrative to avoid complicating international implications. According to Waldron's account from Nolan at 1:04, the  contingency plans made to control the autopsy were first made in anticipation if Castro were to get word of the coup plan that Waldron says was to be actually carried out against him, and decided to take preemptive actions.  The example  given allegedly by Nolan  is the killing of the  Ambassador to Panama. In which case , it's reasoned with the possible fate of the world being held in the balance, it would be necessary to control every aspect   of the autopsy and the information about it going out to the world.

 

 

[Larry Hancock]

I can say that the killing of an American ambassador overseas was one of the reasons cited in the initial discussion of the need for a contingency plan.   However in repeated conversations with Lamar he was never able to find any evidence of a concrete, actionable plan with senior personnel assigned and with authority to put it into place.  We do have a record of some of the groups and staff who were to be involved in the planning and that is about it.  If Lamar ever found anything solid beyond that point he did not share it with me nor have could I find it when I continued to look.

I'd love to see some proof and if it could be corroborated it would indeed explain a lot of things - however extended it to the autopsy certainly needs some corroboration other than the fact of RFK himself being there.  And for that matter, controlling some sort of knee jerk response would need to be done from the Situation Room, from the White House or from Air Force One.  About the closest I could get to that would be the actions of SecDef McNamara that afternoon,  and certain actions by Bundy.   They would be in the position and with the authority to run such a contengency plan,  in his official position RFK could help but he would have needed support.

Without being too critical I'll just say it would be very satisfying to extent the contingency planning to what we see on Nov. 22.....if somebody can find evidence of that I would be the first to get behind it.  In my view that would take more than what either Lamar or myself were able to find when we researched it.