Is Oliver Stone Homophobic?

[James DiEugenio]

I think Helms had to pay a fine for the lies about Chile, he did not do any time.

But I like the way Nagell referred to him in his letters, "Dirty Dick".

 

[W. Niederhut]

17 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

I think Helms had to pay a fine for the lies about Chile, he did not do any time.

But I like the way Nagell referred to him in his letters, "Dirty Dick".

 

I'm currently doing some remedial reading on the history of MK-Ultra, and it sounds like "Dirty Dick" Helms was involved with the project(s) from the beginning.

[Ron Bulman]

8 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

I think Helms had to pay a fine for the lies about Chile, he did not do any time.

But I like the way Nagell referred to him in his letters, "Dirty Dick".

 

Thank for making me dig a little.  Helms was convicted for lying to Congress but received a two year suspended sentence.

"Helms lied, repeatedly, under oath".  "I would assume the case will never be closed".

A JFK Assassination Question that Still Requires an Answer | by Mícheál MacGiolla Rua | Medium

 

[James DiEugenio]

Isn't it really something that Helms eventually put Angleton in charge of what the CIA would give the Warren Commission about Oswald?

And the Commission was flying so blind that they allowed this to occur.  The guy who knew the most about LHO, and might have been his ultimate control officer.

 

[W. Niederhut]

5 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Isn't it really something that Helms eventually put Angleton in charge of what the CIA would give the Warren Commission about Oswald?

And the Commission was flying so blind that they allowed this to occur.  The guy who knew the most about LHO, and might have been his ultimate control officer.

 

Jim,

     After reading George Estabrooks' 1943 Hypnosis textbook this week, I strongly suspect that Estabrooks may have worked with Angleton and the CIA to program Oswald for counterespionage work in Angleton's false defector program.  The parallels with Estabrooks' theories on the subject are striking.

     Is that, perhaps, why the CIA had so many pre-assassination Oswald files?

     I need to go back and re-read John Newman's book on Oswald and the CIA.

[Sandy Larsen]

7 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Jim,

     After reading George Estabrooks' 1943 Hypnosis textbook this week, I strongly suspect that Estabrooks may have worked with Angleton and the CIA to program Oswald for counterespionage work in Angleton's false defector program.  The parallels with Estabrooks' theories on the subject are striking.

     Is that, perhaps, why the CIA had so many pre-assassination Oswald files?

     I need to go back and re-read John Newman's book on Oswald and the CIA.

W.,

What counterespionage work did Oswald do?

[James DiEugenio]

Betsy Wolf's notes on the Oswald file are simply amazing.  I talked about this at Gary Aguilar's latest salon in San Francisco a few weeks ago.

She was examining the Oswald file at CIA.  I don't recall the exact number, but I think it was literally in the hundreds of pages by the time of the assassination.

She was really surprised at the volume, since the CIA always claimed they had no relationship with the man.

And she also discovered why the file did not follow a natural path to the SR division, and how a 201 was not opened.

Someone rigged the system in advance. She did not discover this until October of 1978.  One of her last interviews was with Robert Gambino who was the then chief of of the Office of Security. He told her that it does not matter how many copies come in or who they are supposed to be destined for.  If you give instructions to the Office of Mail Logistics, they will deliver the paper to where you requested and bypass anything else. Someone had rigged the system in advance. But it was too late for Betsy to find out who and why. The HSCA would be closed down in two months.

I wanted to include this in the film because I think, combined with the other stuff we had, like the powerful information from Horne, it would have proved a relationship between Oswald and the CIA in advance of his voyage to Russia.

Oswald was a secret project of someone within the Agency. And although Danny and Eddie get a lot of attention since they are so outspoken, I now would put Betsy Wolf on a platform with them.

[James DiEugenio]

On 2/9/2022 at 9:04 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

W.,

What counterespionage work did Oswald do?

I think what William is trying to say is that Oswald, as part of the false defector program, was trying to gain access to Soviet secrets.

But this was thwarted fairly early when the KGB saw through him pretty fast.  I mean Oswald said he was distributing literature about the Rosenbergs in New Orleans  after they were executed. (Destiny Betrayed, second edition, p. 145)

They sent him to MInsk and put a ring of humint around him with a listening device in his apartment. (p. 145)

But   Oswald did do a pretty nice diagram of that radio factory he worked in. (ibid)

Edited February 12, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Bob Ness]

On 2/9/2022 at 9:11 PM, James DiEugenio said:

 

I wanted to include this in the film because I think, combined with the other stuff we had, like the powerful information from Horne, it would have proved a relationship between Oswald and the CIA in advance of his voyage to Russia.

Oswald was a secret project of someone within the Agency. 

Along with the removal of the flash on Oswald by CIA and FBI it firms up looking like a methodology rather than coincidence (with evidence that's incontrovertible). I'm not certain what documented proof is available in re the SS stand down. If that exists, the perpetrator has provided the rope and no further theorizing is really needed.

Is this in the long version?

[James DiEugenio]

In the long version, we do have Horne's secret revelation about Oswald that Oliver had to squeeze out of him.

But as for the SS and the stripping, we for whatever reason could not get Palamara.  But I think he talked about it in Coup in Camelot.

[Sandy Larsen]

13 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

On 2/9/2022 at 10:04 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

W.,

What counterespionage work did Oswald do?

I think what William is trying to say is that Oswald, as part of the false defector program, was trying to gain access to Soviet secrets.

But this was thwarted fairly early when the KGB saw through him pretty fast.  I mean Oswald said he was distributing literature about the Rosenbergs in New Orleans  after they were executed. (Destiny Betrayed, second edition, p. 145)

They sent him to MInsk and put a ring of humint around him with a listening device in his apartment. (p. 145)

But   Oswald did do a pretty nice diagram of that radio factory he worked in. (ibid)

 

I think that those things are primarily intelligence operations, as opposed to counterintelligence. But I guess that Oswald's attempt at feeding the KGB with (presumed) false information on e.g. the U2 program could be considered to be counterintelligence.

BTW I'm all in on the idea that Oswald was CIA and a false detector. And that there was an Oswald Project. (I think that the former has been proven through a preponderance of circumstantial evidence in addition to the sworn testimony of two CIA employees.) I just had never thought of his work as being counterespionage before and so I wondered, when William made that comment, if I had missed something .

 

[W. Niederhut]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I think that those things are primarily intelligence operations, as opposed to counterintelligence. But I guess that Oswald's attempt at feeding the KGB with (presumed) false information on e.g. the U2 program could be considered to be counterintelligence.

BTW I'm all in on the idea that Oswald was CIA and a false detector. And that there was an Oswald Project. (I think that the former has been proven through a preponderance of circumstantial evidence in addition to the sworn testimony of two CIA employees.) I just had never thought of his work as being counterespionage before and so I wondered, when William made that comment, if I had missed something .

 

Sandy,

     I'm currently re-reading John Newman's book, Oswald and the CIA, to see if there is any hint that Oswald may have had a hypnotically-induced, pro-communist alter of the type described by Dr. George Estabrooks in his 1943 textbook, Hypnosis.  According to Estabrooks' case example, a suitable Marine (named "Jones") could, theoretically, be influenced by post-hypnotic sessions/suggestions to establish an alter personality, Jones A, who is an enthusiastic communist-- with total amnesia for the hypnosis sessions and programming.  A co-conscious alter, Jones B, would be an anti-communist American patriot who is fully conscious of what Jones A is observing, but not vice versa-- offering an undetectable window into "communist" cells and/or countries.

    The U.S. embassy officials in Moscow in 1959, and Aline Mosby, did, in fact, describe the defector Oswald as behaving in an oddly wooden manner, while reciting communist slogans and refusing to engage in any sort of meaningful dialogue.  Were they interacting with a "Jones A?"

    As for intelligence vs. counterintelligence, what I was referring to is a Newman hypothesis that Angleton may have been using the false defector Oswald in 1959 to see if the KGB had any genuine interest in learning about the U2 program.  At the time, Angleton had evidence that a KGB mole in the CIA had already informed the Kremlin about the U2 technology.

Edited February 13, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

As for intelligence vs. counterintelligence, what I was referring to is a Newman hypothesis that Angleton may have been using the false defector Oswald in 1959 to see if the KGB had any genuine interest in learning about the U2 program.  At the time, Angleton had evidence that a KGB mole in the CIA had already informed the Kremlin about the U2 technology.

Ah, yes. That the Russians showed no interest in the U2 from Oswald indicated that they already had that information. I thought it was  because Oswald didn't convince them that he was a real defector and so they figured they'd get only disinformation from him.

[W. Niederhut]

44 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Ah, yes. That the Russians showed no interest in the U2 from Oswald indicated that they already had that information. I thought it was  because Oswald didn't convince them that he was a real defector and so they figured they'd get only disinformation from him.

Sandy,

     I probably know less about Oswald than most of the members here on the forum.

     What piqued my interest in Oswald's history recently was reading Dr. George Estabrook's 1943 commentaries about the potential applications of hypnosis to warfare and espionage.  One protocol that he described involved establishing an amnestic pro-communist alter personality in a Marine, which could be used to infiltrate and spy on communist organizations and/or Soviet bloc countries. 

      His WWII era case of Marine Lieutenant "Jones" sounded suspiciously like what we later observed in the case of Oswald, the false defector Marine who later posed as an enthusiastic communist member of the FPCC, Socialist Worker's Party, etc.

    Estabrooks ideas were, apparently, warmly welcomed by the U.S. War Department during WWII.

[Sandy Larsen]

25 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Sandy,

     I probably know less about Oswald than most of the members here on the forum.

     What piqued my interest in Oswald's history recently was reading Dr. George Estabrook's 1943 commentaries about the potential applications of hypnosis to warfare and espionage.  One protocol that he described involved establishing an amnestic pro-communist alter personality in a Marine, which could be used to infiltrate and spy on communist organizations and/or Soviet bloc countries. 

      His WWII era case of Marine Lieutenant "Jones" sounded suspiciously like what we later observed in the case of Oswald, the false defector Marine who later posed as an enthusiastic communist member of the FPCC, Socialist Worker's Party, etc.

    Estabrooks ideas were, apparently, warmly welcomed by the U.S. War Department during WWII.

 

Good luck on that William. I don't know that much about Oswald either. Maybe someone who does will let you know if your hypothesis resonates with what they know about Oswald.