Was L.B.J. Truly Psychologically Capable/ Predisposed To Sanctioning And Even Ordering Murders?

[Joe Bauer]

Did LBJ's well documented super aggressive ambition drive mental and emotional make up go beyond just lying, cheating, strong arm coercing and corrupt financial dealings? 

Was he ruthless enough to cross the ultimate corruption line?

E. Howard Hunt, Billy Sol Estes and many, many others have claimed or suggested he was.

Richard Nixon quote " You know that Lyndon. He never liked to be number 2."

However, LBJ's most officially crowned highest esteemed academically accepted biographer Robert Caro won't go there.

He and other acceptable LBJ bio writers are willing to only go just below that ominous apex of corruption ruthlessness proposition.

If the chosen ones ever did commit to promoting this ultimate LBJ corruption charge, the powers to be would probably kick in and exercise their power and influence to dissipate their proclamations and even their earning standing rank in the world of literary publishing ...  imo anyway.

Look at what happened to the producers and distributers of the documentary "The Men Who Killed Kennedy."

When they filmed and tried to distribute the episode suggesting LBJ's possible guilt in the JFK assassination, the Johnson family and the powerful people and groups still behind them such as Jack Valenti and so many others hammered them so quickly and powerfully and successfully ...the episode was quashed and serious punitive fines were imposed.

Any LBJ biographical writers must surely keep such threat realities in mind?

I have always accepted that LBJ was psychologically ruthless enough to cross the murder ordering and/or sanctioning line if he felt the target was that much of a threat to his power, wealth and standing. And when the only option to truly eliminating the threat was to -as Ed Tatro once said LBJ said - "get rid of him."

In that particular conversation the "him" was Henry Marshall.

Our officially sanctioned academic history books deal with LBJ in mostly reverent terms and barely or not at all mention the true reality and depth of his great life-long corruption.

This sanitization is cheating their target readers of the real and full truth imo. 

I ask debaters of this "was LBJ capable and ruthless enough to order or okay murders of his threat enemies" question to also keep in mind LBJ's direct and aggressive effort to get his protege Mac Wallace out of a viciously brutal day time gun shooting jury arrived at guilty verdict of murder conviction which incredibly resulted in Wallace walking away...scot free!

An almost unbelievable example of the level of power and influence LBJ actually had and exerted in Texas.

Wallace cold bloodily murdering someone didn't phase LBJ. This was his man...and when it came to protecting those close to him that act didn't matter.

Maybe Wallace had such dirt on LBJ...his murder conviction freedom had to secured?

Was LBJ truly psychologically predisposed to sanctioning and even ordering murders?

If a clear majority consensus of mental health professionals believes so it adds to the weight of considering his possible involvement in the JFK assassination more than not ... imo.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Denny Zartman]

I think so. Remember the "I'm a gambling man" quote. He certainly seemed like the type who wouldn't have hesitated to bend the odds in his favor. Also, if he didn't order the hit, it seems that the conspirators got very, very lucky in having a new president who would be 100% on board with a cover-up from minute one to the very end. I tend to look skeptically at any aspect of the assassination plot that relies on luck.

That said, Allen Dulles apparently participating a plot to assassinate de Gaulle is highly incriminating in my view. If Dulles would be willing to sanction the assassination of the president of an allied country, it's not a giant leap to think he would approve of a hit on his own president. Just my opinion. 

[Pamela Brown]

I think LBJ wanted JFK out of the way and at the least knew about what would happen in Dallas ahead of time.

He also made a statement about a "Murder Inc. in the Caribbean", which is intriguing...

[Joe Bauer]

Until we fully acknowledge and embrace the full depth truth of LBJ's corruption, including his ordering and or sanctioning murders of individuals who were threats to his power, position and wealth, we will continue to live in a misguided false reality world of myth and ignorance.

We need to face and accept this truth about LBJ before we can understand the truth about the JFK assassination. 

I also believe LBJ knew in advance that JFK would be murdered before his first full term was completed.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Phil Nelson]

Joe, think of it this way:  If he was capable of murdering numerous others, evidence of which I have noted in four books and numerous blogs -- BTW, including RFK and MLK -- but also his attempt to sink the USS Liberty and all 294 men aboard, merely to secure reelection in the next year -- in his deluded mind anyway (while risking nuclear war with the USSR) then wouldn't such a man pass this hurdle you've constructed?

Tom Cahill, who was subjected to the most vile and hideous treatment imaginable (an honorably discharged veteran BTW), all for his protesting LBJ's Vietnam policies "in his backyard," had this to say:

“As far as I’m concerned [Phil Nelson’s] exposure of “Operation Cyanide” is the smoking gun in the case against LBJ for his role in the execution of JFK.  If Johnson was criminally insane enough to conspire to send to “the bottom” a US Navy ship with all hands as well as nuke millions of residents of Cairo, why would he not conspire to kill the man in the way of his ambition to be president.  And you have certainly proved Johnson was indeed criminally insane by the strictest definition of the term.
[ . . . ]
And you deserve a Presidential Medal of Honor for your work in closing a fifty plus year cold case. Thank you, thank you, thank you for your hard work.”

~ Tom Cahill, Oswald Innocent Campaign — Cluny, France

Edited June 4, 2022 by Phil Nelson
Add end bracket after "BTW"

[Douglas Caddy]

 

Billie Sol Estes told me that the only person more ruthless than LBJ was John Connally.

[Joe Bauer]

On 6/4/2022 at 5:57 AM, Phil Nelson said:

Joe, think of it this way:  If he was capable of murdering numerous others, evidence of which I have noted in four books and numerous blogs -- BTW, including RFK and MLK -- but also his attempt to sink the USS Liberty and all 294 men aboard, merely to secure reelection in the next year -- in his deluded mind anyway (while risking nuclear war with the USSR) then wouldn't such a man pass this hurdle you've constructed?

Tom Cahill, who was subjected to the most vile and hideous treatment imaginable (an honorably discharged veteran BTW), all for his protesting LBJ's Vietnam policies "in his backyard," had this to say:

“As far as I’m concerned [Phil Nelson’s] exposure of “Operation Cyanide” is the smoking gun in the case against LBJ for his role in the execution of JFK.  If Johnson was criminally insane enough to conspire to send to “the bottom” a US Navy ship with all hands as well as nuke millions of residents of Cairo, why would he not conspire to kill the man in the way of his ambition to be president.  And you have certainly proved Johnson was indeed criminally insane by the strictest definition of the term.
[ . . . ]
And you deserve a Presidential Medal of Honor for your work in closing a fifty plus year cold case. Thank you, thank you, thank you for your hard work.”

~ Tom Cahill, Oswald Innocent Campaign — Cluny, France

Thank you for responding.

As long as our officially sanctioned scholastic books and government records keep downplaying or ignoring all together the true depths of corruption of so many of our highest institution leaders during the 1950's, 60's and beyond, the longer we all will continue to live in a world of unnecessary misguided faith, understanding and beliefs. 

The cheating and stifling let down and emptiness of myth versus truth.

I know, it's one thing to always look at everything in the worst possible light. The total cynic. What a sad wasted existence for sure. 

Lincoln once said something like "when you continually look for the bad in government, you will surely find it ..." 

And then there's the total pollyannaish mentality which has it's obvious let downs as well.

In the more rational and healthy middle, life is always a daily challenge to see, appreciate and enjoy the good along with the bad, joy and laughter with the sadness, faith and hope with lost hope, discouragement and corruption.

I believe much more often than not, most of us in America do look for, see, appreciate and enjoy and share the good more than the bad.

Personally, I actually do count my blessings almost daily as I've had a relatively good, happy and fulfilling life here in America the last 70 years. Always keeping in mind the often harsh, deprived and repressed liberty lives of billions of other humans on this planet. Even the homelessness, addiction and other stress struggles of millions of Americans as well, especially the 1/4 poorest.

Yet, when a criminal act so vile, so barbaric, so damaging and hurting and long term negatively effecting of most of our society takes place such as the murders of JFK and others, the good and great and beautiful of this country is no excuse to not give these ultimate crimes the fullest truth and justice seeking attention and effort we can until we know who committed them and why.

If it makes most of us sick to our stomachs and extremely depressed to know the full truth extent of the corruption of many of our top leaders over the last 7 decades, it is a price we must pay to purge ourselves of the toxic schemes and lies that have cheated us of so much during this time.

If LBJ, Hoover and others were that corrupt we must face and deal with this truth.

We'll get through it just fine. Like we did with Watergate.

With Watergate, we somehow were finally gifted with the exposure of one of the most egregious criminal enterprises ever existing in the highest levels of our government.

Nixon's entire staff was involved and almost 30 of them and their aides were tried, convicted and served jail time.

But it was all for the good.

And so will acknowledging the truth about LBJ and others and their highest level of sometimes brutal corruptness...imo anyway.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Matt Allison]

The crudest man to become President in the 20th century. Yet he also got the Civil Rights Act passed, a monumental achievement.

As for Wallace, him cold bloodily murdering someone didn't seem to phase most people in Texas...

[Joe Bauer]

1 hour ago, Douglas Caddy said:

 

Billie Sol Estes told me that the only person more ruthless than LBJ was John Connally.

Really? More ruthless than LBJ?

I would loved to have heard Estes elaborate on this charge against Connally.

 

[Joe Bauer]

5 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

The crudest man to become President in the 20th century. Yet he also got the Civil Rights Act passed, a monumental achievement.

As for Wallace, him cold bloodily murdering someone didn't seem to phase most people in Texas...

LBJ did push the act through and it lifted millions of black Americans faster and higher than ever before. 

Yet, I think LBJ did this as an act of legacy image improvement dressing.

Excuse my cynicism but many historic evil doers will often do substantial acts of charity during and after their climb to the top of their power and wealth positions.

Most are not aware of the full extent of Al Capone's acts of charity.

Drug and Cartel leaders spend millions if not billions on social programs once they have murdered their way to the top of these criminal empires.

If LBJ had anything to do with JFK's death including held back foreknowledge nothing he did later in his position as President means anything to me.

[Pat Speer]

A lot of our literature is filled with conflicted characters who do bad while thinking they are essentially good. They murder their rivals while single-handedly supporting orphanages, etc. It all goes back to Robin Hood, IMO. I'd bet the house LBJ saw himself in this light: "Yeah, I did some bad stuff, but I needed to so I could do the good stuff!" 

I suspect that's the nature of most politicians. I also suspect that the more bad they do, the more good they feel driven to do to balance the books. 

Edited June 4, 2022 by Pat Speer

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

LBJ did push the act through and it lifted millions of black Americans faster and higher than ever before. 

Yet, I think LBJ did this as an act of legacy image improvement dressing.

Excuse my cynicism but many historic evil doers will often do substantial acts of charity during and after their climb to the top of their power and wealth positions.

Most are not aware of the full extent of Al Capone's acts of charity.

Drug and Cartel leaders spend millions if not billions on social programs once they have murdered their way to the top of these criminal empires.

If LBJ had anything to do with JFK's death including held back foreknowledge nothing he did later in his position as President means anything to me.

My impression is that LBJ's successful Presidential support for the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act-- after sabotaging civil rights legislation in Congress for years-- was part of a cynical, self-serving maneuver to endear himself to northern liberals in the Democratic Party after 11/22/63.

IMO, it was also part of a calculated strategy to reduce suspicion of his involvement in the JFK assassination, by publicly aligning himself with JFK's policies on civil rights.

Similarly, LBJ worked hard to create the public impression that he had not altered JFK's Vietnam policy, as John Newman, James DiEugenio, and other historians have demonstrated so clearly.

I should mention that I was not fully aware of LBJ's serious character pathology until I read Mr. Nelson's LBJ biographies (Mastermind and Colossus) a few years ago.

These threads are personally interesting to me because, several years ago, after reading the Nelson LBJ biographies, I had a rather heated argument with a family member who revered Robert Caro.   (I ended up sending her copies of the two Nelson books.)

[Joe Bauer]

On 6/4/2022 at 10:46 AM, W. Niederhut said:

My impression is that LBJ's successful Presidential support for the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act-- after sabotaging civil rights legislation in Congress for years-- was part of a cynical, self-serving maneuver to endear himself to northern liberals in the Democratic Party after 11/22/63.

IMO, it was also part of a calculated strategy to reduce suspicion of his involvement in the JFK assassination, by publicly aligning himself with JFK's policies on civil rights.

Similarly, LBJ worked hard to create the public impression that he had not altered JFK's Vietnam policy, as John Newman, James DiEugenio, and other historians have demonstrated so clearly.

I should mention that I was not fully aware of LBJ's serious character pathology until I read Mr. Nelson's LBJ biographies (Mastermind and Colossus) a few years ago.

These threads are personally interesting to me because, several years ago, after reading the Nelson LBJ biographies, I had a rather heated argument with a family member who revered Robert Caro.   (I ended up sending her copies of the two Nelson books.)

Yes.

[Phil Nelson]

Mssrs. Niederhut and Bauer are on the right track.  Caro himself described Johnson as a great planner and manipulator in his first book, I think he even used the adjective "meticulous" or something near it. 

For anyone who hasn't read it already, Ed Tatro's great work "Lyndon Johnson the Charlatan Liberal" is must reading.   Proving that LBJ's real attitudes were exactly opposite of what he portrayed them to be;  but above all, he was a master politician who knew that passage of civil rights legislation would effectively erase all the bad stuff and provide him a grand legacy, just like Washington, Lincoln and FDR (his mentor). 

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

10 hours ago, Phil Nelson said:

Mssrs. Niederhut and Bauer are on the right track.  Caro himself described Johnson as a great planner and manipulator in his first book, I think he even used the adjective "meticulous" or something near it. 

For anyone who hasn't read it already, Ed Tatro's great work "Lyndon Johnson the Charlatan Liberal" is must reading.   Proving that LBJ's real attitudes were exactly opposite of what he portrayed them to be;  but above all, he was a master politician who knew that ...

 

" passage of civil rights legislation would effectively erase all the bad stuff and provide him a grand legacy, just like Washington, Lincoln and FDR (his mentor). "

If LBJ believed that... he was desperately wrong.

If LBJ was involved in any way with JFK's murder ( including foreknowledge of ) ...that legacy completely erases his passage of the civil rights legislation one.