Message From David Von Pein

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

In Oswald's case, the DPD had the Carcano with Oswald's palm and finger prints by Friday evening...

 

Correction, just so that readers aren't left with the wrong impression:

I don't believe Oswald's fingerprints were found on the rifle.

Lt. Day claimed he found a partial palm print under the wood stock matching Oswald's, but there is plenty of reason to doubt  that. Including the fact that this was not announced to the press until the 24th. (i.e it was a late addition to the official story.)

 

[Paul Brancato]

26 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Correction, just so that readers aren't left with the wrong impression:

I don't believe Oswald's fingerprints were found on the rifle.

Lt. Day claimed he found a partial palm print under the wood stock matching Oswald's, but there is plenty of reason to doubt  that. Including the fact that this was not announced to the press until the 24th. (i.e it was a late addition to the official story.)

 

Thanks - that’s my recollection as well. 

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Correction, just so that readers aren't left with the wrong impression:

I don't believe Oswald's fingerprints were found on the rifle.

Lt. Day claimed he found a partial palm print under the wood stock matching Oswald's, but there is plenty of reason to doubt  that. Including the fact that this was not announced to the press until the 24th. (i.e it was a late addition to the official story.)

 

It's worse than that. The print announced by Wade on the 24th was almost certainly the print on the trigger guard that the FBI said was too smudged for identification. But was, in fact, not smudged.

Thirty years later, a fingerprint examiner claimed this was Oswald's print. This received national attention, and became a cornerstone of Bugliosi's doorstop. But this fingerprint examiner never provided charts to demonstrate his claim, and largely discredited himself by selling his services to a right-wing organization and making TV appearances claiming he'd studied Vince Foster's suicide note and had determined it was a forgery. 

It could very well be that this print is not Oswald's, and that this is yet another example of the DPD (and FBI) withholding exculpatory evidence. This may still come out. One JFK researcher spent years trying to get the FBI to re-examine their own photos of the trigger guard prints, and they claimed that since they were never entered into the record, and that no conviction was achieved, it was still an open case. And that these images were thereby work product and not something they could share with the public. Or something like that. 

It's easy to get distracted by all the other avenues of research, but this is almost certainly the most viable course towards "re-opening the case", at least in they eyes of historians, and the public. Imagine that. A panel of experts re-examines the trigger guard prints and determines that at least one is legible (1), and not Oswald's print (2).

History will be re-written. 

Edited July 7, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Roger Odisio]

Viable, yes, Pat.  But the most viable option for destroying the WC case is clarifying the image in Darnell to identify Oswald.  In conjunction with the work of Sean Murphy and others, as detailed in Stan Dane's Prayer Man book, eliminating all other Depository employees as possibilities.

[David Von Pein]

4 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

...eliminating all other Depository employees as possibilities.

Which would not prove anything, since the "Prayer Man" figure could very easily be a non-TSBD person (i.e., a total stranger).

A stranger, who might have been looking for a good place to watch the motorcade from, might very well have climbed to the top of the Depository stairs in order to view the parade from that vantage point. And no one can possibly prove that such a scenario didn't happen.

[Paul Cummings]

32 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Which would not prove anything, since the "Prayer Man" figure could very easily be a non-TSBD person (i.e., a total stranger).

A stranger, who might have been looking for a good place to watch the motorcade from, might very well have climbed to the top of the Depository stairs in order to view the parade from that vantage point. And no one can possibly prove that such a scenario didn't happen.

Why? When others could have closer view of the parade as the crowd was thinned out as pictures and films have shown.

[David Von Pein]

36 minutes ago, Paul Cummings said:

Why? When others could have closer view of the parade as the crowd was thinned out as pictures and films have shown.

Can you prove that Prayer Man is not merely a stranger?

I kind of doubt you can.

BTW / FWIW....

Buell Wesley Frazier, in his more recent interviews, has said that he had the best seat in the house (when referring to his parade-watching location on the top step of the TSBD). And he was standing practically right next to "Prayer Man".

Edited July 7, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Paul Cummings]

4 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Can you prove that Prayer Man is not merely a stranger?

I kind of doubt you can.

That's not what I was addressing. I was addressing you said it could be anyone standing at the TSBD entry. I'm saying why would a stranger choose to stand in the doorway when they could be closer to the parade on Elm St?

Edited July 7, 2022 by Paul Cummings

[David Von Pein]

6 minutes ago, Paul Cummings said:

I'm saying why would a stranger choose to stand in the doorway when they could be closer to the parade on Elm St?

Well then, by the same token, why would a TSBD employee feel compelled to stay on the steps when they could have easily gone down to Elm for a closer look? That same logic would apply to TSBD workers too, right?

(Also check my edit to my last post, re: Buell Frazier.)

Edited July 7, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Paul Cummings]

Just now, David Von Pein said:

Well then, by the same token, why would a TSBD employee feel compelled to stay on the steps when they could have easily gone down to Elm for a closer look?

(Also check my edit to my last post, re: Buell Frazier.)

A lot of them did.

[Roger Odisio]

Try using a little logic.  You're a stranger.  You pass up all the all of the spots on either side of Elm St. from the corner on down to the underpass where the crowd is thin and the view is easy.  Instead you leave the street and push thru the pack of Depository employees on the steps and go to the back corner of the top step.  Into the shadows as it were.  Where you lose sight of the motorcade quickly as it starts down the hill.

Have you been on those steps?  I have.  The view is lousy; PM could not have seen the shots from there.

Add the fact that all employees on those steps answered no when asked if they saw any strangers among them, and I think you can conclude PM was an employee. 

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

Have you been on those steps?  I have.  The view is lousy.

Ask Buell Frazier if he thinks the view was lousy.

And, again, if the view was so darn lousy, why did that "pack of Depository employees" decide to use those steps as a place to watch? Were they nailed to the steps or something? Or were all those employees just plain idiots?

Edited July 8, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Paul Cummings]

14 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Ask Buell Frazier if he thinks the view was lousy.

And, again, if the view was so darn lousy, why did that "pack of Depository employees" decide to use those steps as a place to watch? Were they nailed to the steps or something? Or were all those employees just plain idiots?

Because like everyone else you probably got about 5 seconds to watch before he went by so they didn't care where as long as they saw him. Hell maybe the employees weren't fans but decided to watch anyway. Who knows.

[Pete Mellor]

10 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Correction, just so that readers aren't left with the wrong impression: I don't believe Oswald's fingerprints were found on the rifle.  Lt. Day claimed he found a partial palm print under the wood stock matching Oswald's, but there is plenty of reason to doubt that. Including the fact that this was not announced to the press until the 24th. (i.e it was a late addition to the official story.)

9 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Thanks - that’s my recollection as well. 

Sandy/Paul, recall my post was questioning if Fritz's non use of a stenographer or tape recording of Oswald's interrogations were unusual and suspicious.  I stated that I thought it was the norm in Fritz's Homicide Dept.  I then wrote that DPD must have considered the case against Oswald for the assassination to be a 'cinch' after they found the Carcano and then lifted prints off the weapon early Friday evening.  The prints info I am taking from Savage's 'JFK First Day Evidence' Chapter IV 'The Prints'.  According to Crime lab detective R.W. Livingston, Day lifted the right middle & ring finger dabs from the trigger housing.  These prints were also checked by detective Pete Barnes on that Friday evening.  Day also states in the book that Curry was told of the prints but Day had not yet had a chance to do a comparison check with Oswald's print card.  Curry then went down to the 3rd floor and told newsmen that they had a print on the rifle.  It was after this that Day found the palm print under the barrel.  All prior to the rifle being taken to D.C.

9 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Imagine that. A panel of experts re-examines the trigger guard prints and determines that at least one is legible (1), and not Oswald's print (2).

History will be re-written. 

Livingston & Savage have copies of the photographs taken in the crime lab of these prints which are of very good quality 5" x 7".  In 1992 they had these prints examined by a qualified fingerprint expert from the West Monroe Police Dept., Crime Lab.  Also the tv prog 'Frontline' examined the prints, done by Vincent J. Scalice a certified latent print examiner who was used by the HSCA in 1978.  Both tests declared that they were the prints of LHO.

Anyway, just reporting what is in 'JFK First Day Evidence'.  If you guys can shoot this down, fine.  I'm just the messenger.

[Paul Cummings]

3 minutes ago, Pete Mellor said:

Sandy/Paul, recall my post was questioning if Fritz's non use of a stenographer or tape recording of Oswald's interrogations were unusual and suspicious.  I stated that I thought it was the norm in Fritz's Homicide Dept.  I then wrote that DPD must have considered the case against Oswald for the assassination to be a 'cinch' after they found the Carcano and then lifted prints off the weapon early Friday evening.  The prints info I am taking from Savage's 'JFK First Day Evidence' Chapter IV 'The Prints'.  According to Crime lab detective R.W. Livingston, Day lifted the right middle & ring finger dabs from the trigger housing.  These prints were also checked by detective Pete Barnes on that Friday evening.  Day also states in the book that Curry was told of the prints but Day had not yet had a chance to do a comparison check with Oswald's print card.  Curry then went down to the 3rd floor and told newsmen that they had a print on the rifle.  It was after this that Day found the palm print under the barrel.  All prior to the rifle being taken to D.C.

Livingston & Savage have copies of the photographs taken in the crime lab of these prints which are of very good quality 5" x 7".  In 1992 they had these prints examined by a qualified fingerprint expert from the West Monroe Police Dept., Crime Lab.  Also the tv prog 'Frontline' examined the prints, done by Vincent J. Scalice a certified latent print examiner who was used by the HSCA in 1978.  Both tests declared that they were the prints of LHO.

Anyway, just reporting what is in 'JFK First Day Evidence'.  If you guys can shoot this down, fine.  I'm just the messenger.

Hi Pete, the question is where did they get the finger prints? From the morgue or jail?

Edited July 8, 2022 by Paul Cummings