Ted Callaway & The 1:15 Shooting

[James DiEugenio]

How about this from McBride on Nelson.

Quoting an interview with his supervisor, Charles Talbert, listing Nelson as being : Dispatched to Texas School Book Depository where he was stationed in front of the building remainder of afternoon.  (McBride, p. 430)

Nelson did not go to Oak Cliff until after Tippit was reported as DOA.

Joe asks whether the  12:45 message was for real. I think its a good question.

It appears Mentzel was the other officer in Oak Cliff.

[Bill Brown]

3 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

How about this from McBride on Nelson.

Quoting an interview with his supervisor, Charles Talbert, listing Nelson as being : Dispatched to Texas School Book Depository where he was stationed in front of the building remainder of afternoon.  (McBride, p. 430)

Nelson did not go to Oak Cliff until after Tippit was reported as DOA.

Joe asks whether the  12:45 message was for real. I think its a good question.

It appears Mentzel was the other officer in Oak Cliff.

For some reason, you're going completely off-topic. Maybe you should make a new thread.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Bill Brown

[Bill Brown]

4 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

It appears Mentzel was the other officer in Oak Cliff.

Ya think? LOL

How long has it taken you to figure that out?

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

The above just hints at all the new info that has turned up on the Tippit case in the intervening years.

What the WR did in the Tippit case was just about a joke.  Maybe worse  than the JFK case.  

I mean, see how many of these major characters are even mentioned in the Warren Report in the Tippit section.  To me, today, you cannot tell that story without them.

I mean why was Mentzel not called to be "at large  for any emergency that might come in".  (12:54 message) Yet Tippit  supposedly did get that message on the radio. And allegedly acknowledged it.

That message was so odd and so ominous that McBride titled Chapter 12 of his book with it. I mean, first, move into Oak Cliff, then be at large for any emergency that might come in?  Sylvia Meagher said, considering what happened at 12:30, this was rather bizarre. (McBride, p. 425)

Dispatcher Murray Jackson told a whopper when he said he gave the order about Oak Cliff since the officers were drained from there.  This was not true since Mentzel was there.(McBride, p. 423) Aware this was problematic, Jackson changed his story for the HSCA.  So again, both the evidence and the excuse changed.

[James DiEugenio]

And by the way, I have only dealt with Nelson and Mentzel.

When you get to Westbrook, Croy and Hill, it gets probably even worse.

So anyone who begins a thread on the Tippit case with Callaway, who thought he heard shots at one o'clock, is taking us back to 1964 and wants to stay there.

 

[Bill Brown]

6 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

And by the way, I have only dealt with Nelson and Mentzel.

When you get to Westbrook, Croy and Hill, it gets probably even worse.

So anyone who begins a thread on the Tippit case with Callaway, who thought he heard shots at one o'clock, is taking us back to 1964 and wants to stay there.

 

Callaway never said he thought he heard the shots at one o'clock.. When you have to make things up to prove a point, your point becomes invalid.

[James DiEugenio]

Bill, Pat tried to give you some advice.

You did not take it.

Gil tried to give you some advice.

Again, you did not take it.

So I will try.

Its not how many posts you make.  It is the quality and the sourcing and whether or not its new and relevant, in the sense that it changes the database. That is what matters here.  Callaway is the kind of witness who puts people to sleep.  And it says more about you than about the Tippit case.

 

[Bill Brown]

30 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Bill, Pat tried to give you some advice.

You did not take it.

Gil tried to give you some advice.

Again, you did not take it.

So I will try.

Its not how many posts you make.  It is the quality and the sourcing and whether or not its new and relevant, in the sense that it changes the database. That is what matters here.  Callaway is the kind of witness who puts people to sleep.  And it says more about you than about the Tippit case.

 

"So anyone who begins a thread on the Tippit case with Callaway, who thought he heard shots at one o'clock, is taking us back to 1964 and wants to stay there."

 

Okay then.  Will you provide your "sourcing" for Ted Callaway saying that he thought he heard the shots at one o'clock?

 

"Around 1 pm or so" is not the same as "I heard the shots at one o'clock".

Edited July 15, 2022 by Bill Brown

[James DiEugenio]

Now we come to Mr. Westbrook:

 

The first tremor occurred in 1995 when Dallas FBI agent James Hosty published his book on the Kennedy case entitled Assignment Oswald. In that book he revealed a stunning piece of information, one that had been concealed for 32 years. Hosty wrote that his FBI colleague Bob Barrett had told him something unusual occurred at the scene of the Tippit murder. Barrett told him that one of the policemen, Captain Westbrook, asked him if he had ever heard of a Lee Harvey Oswald. When Barrett said he had not, he then asked him: How about an Alek Hidell? Again, Barrett replied he had not. As Barrett was answering the questions, Westbrook was leafing through a wallet found at the scene.

This extraordinary development was raised from the realm of memory into that of fact when a film from TV station WFAA was later uncovered. That film shows three policemen handling the wallet at the scene of the Tippit murder.

[David Von Pein]

For good measure, I'll toss in a few things here regarding the Tippit murder that might be useful....

Here's Domingo Benavides' 1967 CBS-TV interview:

 

Helen Markham and her bus:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2017/04/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1242.html

 

And I never want people to forget this basic fact concerning Lee Oswald and the murder of Officer Tippit:

 

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

For good measure, I'll toss in a few things here regarding the Tippit murder that might be useful....

Here's Domingo Benavides' 1967 CBS-TV interview:

 

Helen Markham and her bus:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2017/04/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1242.html

 

And I never want people to forget this basic fact concerning Lee Oswald and the murder of Officer Tippit:

 

On your last point here, the revolver has no verifiable chain of custody whatsoever. Any defense attorney worth their salt could have had a field day with it. The arresting officers simply did not handle the gun the way they should have (even Westbrook said this); and it’s a reasonable question to ask if they were really just that incompetent to jeopardize their entire case against Oswald in the Tippit murder, or if there was something else going on.

I don’t mean to turn this thread into a debate about the revolver, but do you really think the arresting officers were dumb enough to expose the DPD like that? 

Regarding Markham, Bugliosi’s (and your own) argument that she wouldn’t have said 1:15 if she was referring to a 1:12 bus just isn’t very convincing IMO. Maybe her watch was fast. Maybe the bus wasn’t strictly on schedule every day and it generally arrived around 1:15. Maybe she was just rounding up in her testimony, etc. 

 

[David Von Pein]

2 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

The revolver has no verifiable chain of custody whatsoever. Any defense attorney worth their salt could have had a field day with it. The arresting officers simply did not handle the gun the way they should have...

You're dead wrong. Lee Oswald's Smith & Wesson .38 revolver (Serial No. V510210) has a perfectly fine chain of custody ---- from Bob Carroll to Gerald Hill and then straight to the Dallas Police Headquarters at City Hall. No problem with that at all. CTers, as usual, are creating problems with the chain of possession for a piece of evidence where no problems exist whatsoever.

Do you think Bob Carroll and Sergeant Gerald L. Hill are both lying through their individual and collective teeth in their Warren Commission testimony below?

Emphasis added by DVP:

------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. BELIN. I now want to hand you one of the exhibits which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 143 and ask you to state what that is?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. It is a .38 caliber revolver with a blue steel 2" barrel with wooden handle.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen this before?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes; I have.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you first see it?
Mr. CARROLL. I first saw it in the Texas Theatre on November 22, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Would you just tell us about this weapon, when you first saw it?
Mr. CARROLL. The first time I saw the weapon, it was pointed in my direction and I reached and grabbed it and stuck it into my belt.
Mr. BELIN. What did you happen to be doing at the time?
Mr. CARROLL. At the time I was assisting in the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whose hand was on the gun when you saw it pointed in your direction?
Mr. CARROLL. No; I do not.
Mr. BELIN. You just jumped and grabbed it?
Mr. CARROLL. I jumped and grabbed the gun; yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do with it?
Mr. CARROLL. Stuck it in my belt.
Mr. BELIN. And then?
Mr. CARROLL. After leaving the theatre and getting into the car, I released the pistol to Sgt. Jerry Hill.
Mr. BELIN. Sgt. G. L. Hill?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Who drove the car down to the station?
Mr. CARROLL. I drove the car.
Mr. BELIN. Did you give it to him before you started up the car, or after you started up the car, if you remember?
Mr. CARROLL. After.
Mr. BELIN. How far had you driven when you gave it to him?
Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall exactly how far I had driven.
Mr. BELIN. Did you put any identification mark at all on this weapon?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; I did. The initials B. C., right above the screw on the inside of the butt of the pistol.

[...]

Mr. BELIN. What day did you put your initials on it?
Mr. CARROLL. November 22, 1963.

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/carroll.htm

------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. BELIN. Now I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 143. Would you state if you know what this is?
Mr. HILL. This is a .38 caliber revolver, Smith & Wesson, with a 2" barrel that would contain six shells. It is an older gun that has been blue steeled, and has a worn wooden handle.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen this gun before?
Mr. HILL. I am trying to see my mark on it to make sure, sir. I don't recall specifically where I marked it, but I did mark it, if this is the one. I don't remember where I did mark it, now. Here it is, Hill right here, right in this crack.
Mr. BELIN. Officer, you have just pointed out a place which I will identify as a metal portion running along the butt of the gun. Can you describe it any more fully?
Mr. HILL. It would be to the inside of the pistol grip holding the gun in the air. It would begin under the trigger guard to where the last name H-i-l-l is scratched in the metal.
Mr. BELIN. Who put that name in there?
Mr. HILL. I did.
Mr. BELIN. When did you do that?
Mr. HILL. This was done at approximately 4 p.m., the afternoon of Friday, November 22, 1963, in the personnel office of the police department.
Mr. BELIN. Did you keep that gun in your possession until you scratched your name on it?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BELIN. Was this gun the gun that Officer Carroll handed to you?
Mr. HILL. And identified to me as the suspect's weapon.

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm

Edited July 15, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Ian Lloyd]

9 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

Nonsense. 

 

The Dallas Transit System told the FBI that a bus was scheduled to stop there at 1:12, 1:22 and about every ten minutes thereafter; nothing about Markham catching a 1:12 bus. 

 

Stop making things up to fit your narrative. 

 

 

Makes sense to me that she left her home at "...around 1:00..." to catch the 1:12 bus - I can't imagine she would leave at 1:00 to catch a 1:22 bus when it was only a block or so i.e. a few minutes' walk for her. Also, I can't imagine that the bus would arrive at the stop at precisely 1:12 every time, if anything probably late rather than early (if early, it should wait until the alloted time to leave), so she thinks of it as a 1:15 bus...Even if she gets there a little later, it's only around 10 minutes extra wait for the 1:22, so she gives herself a safety net. Again, if so, this would convince me that she normally caught the 1:12 bus. It seems that she caught this bus regularly and has her timings quite precise in her WC testimony.

[Ian Lloyd]

9 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

Bowley's watch couldn't have been off by 5 or 6 minutes?

 

I guess it comes down to whether or not you allow your bias to cause you to dismiss the detailed actions of Callaway and Benavides and the time stamps on the police tapes in favor of Bowley's 1963 era windup wristwatch. 

 

 

Bowley's watch could have been off by 5 or 6 minutes, then again, it may not have been...He seemed quite relaint on it so I would expect him to ensure it was reading the correct time.

 

Trying to make things fit a narrative?

[Ian Lloyd]

Callaway says he heard shots "around 1pm".

Markham says she thinks the shooting occured around 1:06-1:07 based on a routine of hers to catch a bus.

Bowley says he was at the scene at 1:10 (after the shooting) after checking his watch.

BUT:

Callaway might have heard the shots anytime between 1:00 & 1:30.

Markham's clock may have been out by 5 or 6 minutes.

Bowley's watch may have been out by 5 or 6 minutes.

Hmmm...

Also, what was the (original) recorded time for DOA?