Ted Callaway & The 1:15 Shooting

[Gil Jesus]

1 hour ago, Ian Lloyd said:

Also, what was the (original) recorded time for DOA?

1:15 pm

[Sandy Larsen]

An ambulance picked up Tippit and took him to Methodist Hospital, where doctors tried to resuscitate him but failed. He was pronounced DOA at 1:15 PM.

On the following DPD form, the time of death was apparently estimated to be 1:00 PM at first,  and then corrected later.

 

 

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

Just now, Sandy Larsen said:

An ambulance picked up Tippit and took him to Methodist Hospital, where doctors tried to resuscitate him but failed. He was pronounced DOA at 1:15 PM.

 

Almost everything points to a shooting time of about 1:06 PM.

 

[Gil Jesus]

13 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Almost everything points to a shooting time of about 1:06 PM.

 

And keep in mind that when they pronounce someone DOA, the time is based on the time of arrival at the hospital, not the exact time of the shooting. The best coroner in the world can't possibly narrow the time of death down to the exact minute, he can only give a timeframe. And even that's an estimate. So the official time of death is based on the time of arrival at the hospital, thus D.O.A. = dead-on-arrival, not dead on Tenth Street.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[Allen Lowe]

13 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

Callaway said "around 1 pm or so".

 

1:14, 1:15 could be considered "around 1 pm or so" to many people. How do you know exactly what Callaway meant by "around" and "or so"?

 

 

How do you know? That’s the point. And by the way nobody I know would ever say 1 o’clock when they meant 115. Especially when a murder was involved.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Allen Lowe

[Gil Jesus]

14 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

Callaway said "around 1 pm or so".

 

1:14, 1:15 could be considered "around 1 pm or so" to many people. How do you know exactly what Callaway meant by "around" and "or so"?

 

 

Name a witness who said that the shooting occurred at 1 :15.

Just one.

[Gil Jesus]

15 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

For you to believe that Benavides really sat in his truck for a few minutes before getting out means you believe he was still cowering down inside his truck while people like Helen Markham and the Davis sisters and others were over at the patrol car tending to Tippit. That's foolish.

What's foolish is that you don't use citations.

I post evidence. You post opinions. Although you have a right to your opinion, opinions are not evidence.

Neither are your interpretations. The evidence is the evidence.

Benavides testified that he delayed in coming out of his truck. Whether he was cowering, eating his lunch or playing hopscotch is not relevant. The evidence shows that he delayed coming out of his truck and because of that, the time of his broadcast over the police radio cannot be used as a timeclock for the shooting.

No matter how much you deny it, the facts are the facts.

 

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

An ambulance picked up Tippit and took him to Methodist Hospital, where doctors tried to resuscitate him but failed. He was pronounced DOA at 1:15 PM.

On the following DPD form, the time of death was apparently estimated to be 1:00 PM at first,  and then corrected later.

 

 

 

 

Confused about the stated "declared time of death" as 1:15 pm.

Was this the time Tippit arrived at the hospital?

Or was this the actual time a medical doctor declared him dead after resuscitation efforts failed?

My guess is that the entire episode of Tippit being wheeled into an ER room, hooked up to necessary apparatus, prepped for surgery and then worked on for resuscitation efforts must have taken 10 minutes at least. 

Combining the ambulance drive time with the hospital resuscitation effort time frame puts the actual Tippit shooting time in debatable jeopardy does it not?

 

[Tom Gram]

7 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

You're dead wrong. Lee Oswald's Smith & Wesson .38 revolver (Serial No. V510210) has a perfectly fine chain of custody ---- from Bob Carroll to Gerald Hill and then straight to the Dallas Police Headquarters at City Hall. No problem with that at all. CTers, as usual, are creating problems with the chain of possession for a piece of evidence where no problems exist whatsoever.

Do you think Bob Carroll and Sergeant Gerald L. Hill are both lying through their individual and collective teeth in their Warren Commission testimony below?

Emphasis added by DVP:

------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. BELIN. I now want to hand you one of the exhibits which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 143 and ask you to state what that is?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. It is a .38 caliber revolver with a blue steel 2" barrel with wooden handle.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen this before?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes; I have.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you first see it?
Mr. CARROLL. I first saw it in the Texas Theatre on November 22, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Would you just tell us about this weapon, when you first saw it?
Mr. CARROLL. The first time I saw the weapon, it was pointed in my direction and I reached and grabbed it and stuck it into my belt.
Mr. BELIN. What did you happen to be doing at the time?
Mr. CARROLL. At the time I was assisting in the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whose hand was on the gun when you saw it pointed in your direction?
Mr. CARROLL. No; I do not.
Mr. BELIN. You just jumped and grabbed it?
Mr. CARROLL. I jumped and grabbed the gun; yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do with it?
Mr. CARROLL. Stuck it in my belt.
Mr. BELIN. And then?
Mr. CARROLL. After leaving the theatre and getting into the car, I released the pistol to Sgt. Jerry Hill.
Mr. BELIN. Sgt. G. L. Hill?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Who drove the car down to the station?
Mr. CARROLL. I drove the car.
Mr. BELIN. Did you give it to him before you started up the car, or after you started up the car, if you remember?
Mr. CARROLL. After.
Mr. BELIN. How far had you driven when you gave it to him?
Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall exactly how far I had driven.
Mr. BELIN. Did you put any identification mark at all on this weapon?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; I did. The initials B. C., right above the screw on the inside of the butt of the pistol.

[...]

Mr. BELIN. What day did you put your initials on it?
Mr. CARROLL. November 22, 1963.

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/carroll.htm

------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. BELIN. Now I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 143. Would you state if you know what this is?
Mr. HILL. This is a .38 caliber revolver, Smith & Wesson, with a 2" barrel that would contain six shells. It is an older gun that has been blue steeled, and has a worn wooden handle.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen this gun before?
Mr. HILL. I am trying to see my mark on it to make sure, sir. I don't recall specifically where I marked it, but I did mark it, if this is the one. I don't remember where I did mark it, now. Here it is, Hill right here, right in this crack.
Mr. BELIN. Officer, you have just pointed out a place which I will identify as a metal portion running along the butt of the gun. Can you describe it any more fully?
Mr. HILL. It would be to the inside of the pistol grip holding the gun in the air. It would begin under the trigger guard to where the last name H-i-l-l is scratched in the metal.
Mr. BELIN. Who put that name in there?
Mr. HILL. I did.
Mr. BELIN. When did you do that?
Mr. HILL. This was done at approximately 4 p.m., the afternoon of Friday, November 22, 1963, in the personnel office of the police department.
Mr. BELIN. Did you keep that gun in your possession until you scratched your name on it?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BELIN. Was this gun the gun that Officer Carroll handed to you?
Mr. HILL. And identified to me as the suspect's weapon.

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm

 

David, that's not the issue. The issue is that nobody initialed the gun until around 4pm in Westbrook's office, and Carroll, Hill and McDonald initialed it at the same time. I'm not even saying there's anything actually wrong with the chain of custody, just that a defense attorney would rip these guys to shreds in court, and they exposed themselves to that by how they handled the gun. It doesn't matter if Hill is lying or not. 

But that's just the start of it. Paul Bentley also initialed the gun, and he never officially had possession of it. He initialed it in a different spot than the other officers, and the evidence very strongly suggests that he marked it before everyone else. This is the weirdest problem with the chain of custody IMO, and the WC pretended that Bentley didn't exist. 

Also, I didn't even know this until Gil's recent thread, and the chain of custody is bad enough as it is; but all the defense would have had to do to destroy Hill's credibility is call C.T. Walker to the stand, who testified that he had the revolver in his possession at a time it was supposed to be in Hill's belt:

Mr. WALKER. We took him up the Homicide and Robbery Bureau, and we went back there and one of the detectives said, put him in this room. I put him in the room, and he ( the detective ) said, "Let the uniformed officers stay with him ." And I went inside, and Oswald sat down, and he was handcuffed with his hands behind him. I sat down there, and I had his pistol, and he had a card in there with a picture of him and the name A.J.Hidell on it. 

These are real problems. Again, even Capt. Westbrook acknowledged that the officers shouldn't have brought the gun to his office. There are other problems too, such as when exactly Hill turned the gun over to Lt. Baker, since Carroll didn't witness it. The WC didn't call Baker either, which is just as bad as not deposing Bentley. I could go on, but again I don't want to turn this thread into a revolver debate. I'd be happy to do that in Gil's handgun thread though. The point is that these guys either massively screwed up, or something shady was going on. I don't see any way around it. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Tom Gram

[Ian Lloyd]

7 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

1:15 pm

Precisely my point...

[Ian Lloyd]

9 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

An ambulance picked up Tippit and took him to Methodist Hospital, where doctors tried to resuscitate him but failed. He was pronounced DOA at 1:15 PM.

On the following DPD form, the time of death was apparently estimated to be 1:00 PM at first,  and then corrected later.

 

 

 

We seem to have 2 separate documents that state the time of declaration of death as 1:15.

Time of declaration of death is different to time of murder.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Ian Lloyd
1st paragraph removed - incorrect time noted..

[Ian Lloyd]

I suppose the hospital clock and/or doctor's watch could have been wrong by "...5 or 6 minutes..."

😁

[David Von Pein]

18 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

The issue is that nobody initialed the gun until around 4pm in Westbrook's office...

Big deal. That's only 2 hours after Oswald was brought to the City Hall.

And what's the beef again with the gun being marked in Westbrook's office? ~shrug~

Sounds like a bunch of nit-picking to me.

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Gil Jesus]

On 7/14/2022 at 6:57 PM, Bill Brown said:

For you to believe that Benavides really sat in his truck for a few minutes before getting out means you believe he was still cowering down inside his truck while people like Helen Markham and the Davis sisters and others were over at the patrol car tending to Tippit. That's foolish.

 

 

I posted his testimony. That's what he said. If you don't want to believe it, that's your problem.

Show me the evidence that the Davises ( they were sisters-in-law, not sisters ) or Markham were at the patrol car "tending to Tippit."

While you're at it, don't forget to name the witness who said the shooting was at 1:15.

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[David Von Pein]

53 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

I posted his [Domingo Benavides'] testimony. That's what he said. If you don't want to believe it, that's your problem.

Here's what Benavides said in his 1967 CBS-TV interview:

"I give him enough time to get around the house, thinking he might have went in the house. I sat there for maybe a second or two and then jumped out of the truck."

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by David Von Pein