The murder weapon of the Tippit killing?

[Greg Doudna]

The murder weapon of the Tippit killing?

On the night of Nov 22/23, 1963, the night following the killing of officer Tippit in Oak Cliff by a killer using a .38 Special, someone abandoned a snub-nosed Smith & Wesson .38 Special revolver in a paper bag a few blocks away from the Carousel Club in downtown Dallas. Just threw that revolver in a paper bag by the side of a street out of a car window, just got rid of it. It was found by a citizen the next morning who turned it in to the Dallas Police (documentation quoted and linked below).

By that time--Saturday morning Nov 23--the narrative had already developed and was being reported around the world: Lee Harvey Oswald had assassinated JFK from his workplace at the Texas School Book Depository and then had shot and killed officer Tippit in Oak Cliff. Police had the revolver of Oswald. There was no missing murder weapon in the Tippit killing.

But the next morning after the killing of officer Tippit by a .38 Special revolver--the only known murder by handgun in the Dallas area that day--a mystery Smith & Wesson .38 Special revolver turned up abandoned on a downtown Dallas street. 

Think of the oddity of that timing.

Why would someone toss a Smith & Wesson .38 Special revolver in a paper bag out of a car on a street in downtown Dallas, the night of Nov 22/23, 1963? 

Think hard—is there any reason why anyone would do that that particular night?

There are only about two reasons I can think that make any sense: either that revolver had just been used in a crime such as an armed robbery or a murder and the perpetrator was abandoning an untraceable weapon so as not to be incriminated by having it found on their person if arrested, or, somebody who was not supposed to be in possession of a weapon was being pulled over by a police cruiser and threw it out a car window before coming to a stop, to avoid having it found in their possession.

The first question police might ask (one would think) would be whether there had been a homicide or gangland killing involving a handgun which might shed light on that abandoned snub-nosed .38 Smith & Wesson.

But the only handgun homicide in Dallas at that time was the killing of Tippit. And police already had (or thought they had) the murder weapon for that, the Oswald revolver.

Nevertheless it would still be assumed that the Dallas Police Department—the killing of officer Tippit by that exact kind of handgun hours earlier totally aside--would investigate that paper-bag revolver and have records of it. But in this case that is not what happened. The Dallas Police disappeared any record of that paper-bag .38 revolver. The only reason the existence of that revolver is known to have been in DPD custody the weekend of the assassination is from FBI documents first released in 1978 and first noticed in the 1990s. There is no issue that the FBI documents, and hence the underlying Dallas Police Department information from which the FBI documents derived, are inauthentic, nor has that been alleged. Here is the background as told by Bill Adams in the May 1996 issue of Fourth Decade (https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48693#relPageId=8) :

"The FBI unleashed a controversy in 1978 when they released 100,000 pages of documents concerning its investigation into the assassination of President Kennedy. Within those 100,000 pages was a very intriguing document. That same year the Assassination Information Bureau (AIB) reviewed the FBI document release and reported the discovery of various documents in the AIB's newsletter, Clandestine America. One issue of the newsletter mentioned that a .38 caliber revolver was discovered 'in a paper bag in the immediate vicinity of the assassination site.' 

"In the Fall of 1991 I was reading through Paul Hoch's collection of Clandestine America when I came across the AIB article on the revolver. I was intrigued by the potential implications of a second gun being found in Dealey Plaza [sic]. Over the next few months I contacted many assassination researchers and was disappointed to learn that none of them had ever heard of the revolver. (. . .)

"At this point I decided to use the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) to obtain any additional revolver documents that existed. During the last few days of 1991 I filed the first of many FOIA requests with the FBI regarding the revolver. My first request went to FBI Headquarters in Washington, D.C. Two months later the FBI responded to my request by sending copies of '2 pages of preprocessed material.' I was making progress faster than I expected and now possessed three documents concerning the revolver. The new documents provided more detail about the FBI investigation of the revolver and claimed the revolver had been found 'in [the] immediate vicinity of the assassination area.' I now could confirm that the AIB and Woods did in fact have two different documents on the revolver. These documents had apparently also been released as part of the FBI's 1978 release but had not been reported by the AIB. Four years later [1996], as I write this article, I am still awaiting the FBI's closure of this request and/or release of additional documents responsive to my request.

"During the summer of 1993 I gave up waiting for the FBI to complete my 1991 FOIA request. I filed a new FOIA request with each of the involved FBI Field Offices--Boston, Dallas, Philadelphia, and Springfield. Within a month I had responses from all four Field Offices. Springfield said they had no responsive documents but would refer me to FBI Headquarters. Both Dallas and Philadelphia referred me to FBI Headquarters as well. Boston however provided a bizarre response: they were 'currently unable to locate [their] files pertaining to the assassination.' Boston assured me that 'when/if the file is located, processing of [my] request will continue and [I would] be advised of the results.' Apparently they never did find their file as Boston has never sent another reply to my FOIA request.

"As a result of the assassination Records Collection Act (ARCA) of 1992 the FBI files reviewed by the HSCA were released to the National Archives. One of these FBI files turned out to be a two page document concerning the FBI's attempts to trace the revolver. This document also mentions that the revolver was 'found in a paper bag in the immediate vicinity of the assassination area.' I obtained this document from a different researcher and now possessed four different revolver documents. (. . .)

"Early in 1995 Paul Hoch sent me a copy of another AIB discovered document concerning that revolver. He discovered this document while looking for other material I had requested, unrelated to the revolver investigation. This document was also apparently included in the 1978 FBI document release. This document was a new fifth document that I had never seen before and my FOIA requests had not uncovered. The document provides the missing piece to the revolver puzzle. The document not only reveals where the revolver was found but who found it. The following quote from this document shows just how wrong I and other researchers were [concerning a Dealey Plaza location]:

"'On 11/23/63, Patrolman L. Raz brought into the Homicide and Robbery Bureau, Dallas PD, a brown paper sack which contained a snub-nosed .38 caliber Smith & Wesson, SN 893265...had been found near the curb at the corner of Ross and Lamar Streets and was turned in by one Willie Flat...'"

The corner of Ross and Lamar is only about 6 blocks, about 0.3 miles, from Jack Ruby’s Carousel Club at 1312-1/2 Commerce, where Curtis Craford aka Larry Crafard, with self-professed hit man experience, recently arrived to Dallas, was living. Ruby drove to his Club and picked up Craford ca. 4 am that night, the night Craford fled Dallas, about 2-3 hours before the citizen found the paper bag with the revolver and reported it. Looking on a map, the spot where the revolver was thrown out of a car window at Ross and Lamar is in excellent agreement with the route of a car taking a passenger from the Carousel Club to nearby interstate 35E going north. 

Here is the full text of the FBI document which refers to the find of that revolver turned in to the Dallas Police, as posted in Gil Jesus, “The Gun in the Bag”, https://jfkconspiracyforum.freeforums.net/thread/983/gun-bag.

MEMORANDUM

TO SAC, DALLAS (89-43) DATE: 11/25/63

FROM SA RICHARD E. HARRISON

SUBJECT: ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

On 11/23/63, Patrolman J. RAZ brought into the Homicide and Robbery Bureau, Dallas PD, a brown paper sack which contained a snub-nosed .38 caliber Smith & Wesson, SN 893265.

This gun had the word "England" on the cylinder and had been found at approximately 7:30 AM in a brown paper sack, together with an apple and an orange, near the curb at the corner of Ross and Lamar Streets and was turned in by one Willie Flat, white male, 9221 Metz Drive, employed at 4770 Memphis, to the Dallas PD.

2-Dallas

REH:cah

(2) FBI DL 89-43-636

That FBI document of 11/25/63 was followed by three other FBI documents (quoted at the same link above), dated Nov 29, Nov 29, and Nov 30, 1963, which report FBI efforts to trace the serial number and history of that firearm. Records were found from the serial number that that revolver had been shipped by the Smith & Wesson company on Jan 13, 1942 to the US Government, Hartford Ordnance, Hartford, Conn. It was reported by a sales manager of Smith & Wesson that 

"shipments to Hartford Ordnance at that time were destined for England under Lend-Lease Agreement and stamping on cylinder is probably a proof-mark of that government certifying its acceptance. Such weapons are known to have been sold surplus in England, altered and rechambered in that country to accommodate thirty-eight special ammunition. Such weapons were subsequently imported for sale by U.S. gun dealers."

(Note in CE 2011, for example, the interchangeability in terminology of “.38” and “.38 Special”, in description of the same kind of revolver—original .38 revolvers which had been modified and rechambered to fire the slightly smaller and superior .38 Special bullets.)

The FBI documents do not give further tracing information of what became of that serial-number weapon after its original shipment in 1942 to the US Government in Connecticut and then likely shipment to England and likely return to the US for sale as surplus.

It was .38 Special bullets which killed officer Tippit. A snub-nosed .38 modified to fire .38 Special bullets is both the kind of revolver of the paper bag and the kind of revolver that Oswald had, making two distinct weapons of the same kind, both compatible with having been used in the killing of officer Tippit, but one was not used in that killing.

Which of those two was the one not used in the Tippit killing, the one not used in the Tippit killing, although an exact match to the kind of weapon that was used, being coincidence? 

The snub-nosed .38 Special may have been the most common type of concealed handgun in America at the time. This means Oswald’s possession of a snub-nosed .38 Special revolver could well be coincidence (carried for self-defense that day, not used to murder Tippit), if the other snub-nosed .38 Special (the one tossed from a car in a paper bag) was the murder weapon used to kill Tippit.

There is no record that the FBI obtained that revolver from the Dallas Police Department or ran it through examination in the FBI lab in Washington, D.C. (at least there is no hint that was done in known documentation), although DPD’s possession of that revolver apparently was an issue of some interest to the FBI. There is no record the FBI compared any of the four bullets taken from Tippit's body in the autopsy to bullets fired from that paper-bag revolver found hours after that killing of Tippit, to test for a possible match. Such comparison was done with bullets fired from Oswald’s revolver (with the FBI reporting inconclusive results, neither confirming nor excluding a match). But there is no record of any similar examination done with the paper-bag revolver; why?

Is this information concerning this paper-bag revolver not simply stunning, with respect to the Tippit case? It should be. 

That paper-bag snub-nosed .38 found abandoned in downtown Dallas some time before 7:30 am Nov 23, 1963: the mention of the fruit, the apple and the orange, also in the paper bag with the revolver, as well as the likely high traffic and visibility of anything tossed into the street at the Ross and Lamar location, suggests the tossing of that revolver was recent, likely earlier that same night—and that paper-bag revolver was not identified with any other crime, nor any owner. Whereas a citizen carrying a concealed weapon does not necessarily suggest or imply that citizen murdered or intends to murder, the tossing of an untraceable handgun in a paper bag on a city street does suggest or imply just that--that the weapon very well may have been used in a recent crime or homicide such as a murder or a hit; that is why it was tossed.

Which of the two revolvers is more likely to have been the murder weapon in the killing of Tippit—a killing which had a professional coup de grace shot into the forehead as found in the autopsy and as told by witness Jack Tatum (who feared to come forth at the time because he feared mob involvement)? The handgun found on Oswald at his arrest? Or the handgun tossed because it had been recently used in a homicide or contract killing—tossed the very night following the Tippit killing, tossed only a few blocks from the Carousel Club the very night of Craford's flight from Dallas, after he was picked up in a car at the Carousel Club by Jack Ruby and George Senator at about 4 am.?

And if there was not a connection of that paper-bag .38 revolver to the Tippit killing, why did the Dallas Police disappear all trace of records of that revolver, and the FBI have inadequate records as well? Why is the owner of record of that weapon by serial number not known, why is no ballistics testing by either DPD or FBI known? Why the coincidence in the timing? Why the coverup?

Let us go to the conclusion that might be found by the fictional television detective “Columbo”, if this had been a case investigated by Columbo: that abandoned paper-bag snub-nosed Smith & Wesson .38 Special was the murder weapon of Tippit. That was the murder weapon used by Curtis Craford to murder Tippit after which he reloaded and went to the Texas Theatre to murder Oswald, knowing he was there, except that intent to murder was thwarted by the arrival of police who arrested Oswald, saving Oswald’s life for the moment. The Tippit murder weapon was not Oswald's snub-nosed .38 revolver, although elements of the Dallas Police sought to have it look that way and to have investigators conclude that way. Oswald was innocent of the murder of Tippit. Craford did it, and he did it with that revolver found in the paper bag.

~ ~ ~

What became of that paper-bag .38 Special Smith & Wesson revolver? Where is that revolver today? Nobody knows. 

What was going on with this kind of (in this case almost literal) smoking-gun physical evidence which disappeared while in police custody—evidence that very well could have resulted in complete exoneration of Oswald in the Tippit killing if it had been allowed to become known and investigated?

Gone, just gone. Never examined for ballistics characteristics, fingerprints, or comparison with Tippit body bullets. 

Just disappeared, vanished. 

The murder weapon of Tippit.

Gone, likely forever.

From Dallas Police Department hands the day after Tippit was killed. 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Greg Doudna

[Benjamin Cole]

Great stuff Greg.

I have posited that the snub-nose .38 you reference might have been used in the JFKA, that is fired from or near the Grassy Knoll as a diversion.

The diversion worked, btw. 

If bullets are "hand-packed" with cheap gunpowder, or black powder, you will get a lot of noice and smoke from a snub-nose .38, more than from an ordinary pistol or long-barrel gun. 

However, even today gun enthusiasts complain about store-bought cheap ammo smoking. The claim  that modern ammo does not smoke is not true.  

Why so many credible witnesses described the smell of gunsmoke in Dealey Plaza in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, upwind from the TSBD (we can see women's skirts blowing towards the TSBD) is a question the WC never even addressed, nor really the HSCA, although the HSCA left open the door to a Grassy Knoll shot. 

As you say, the snub-nose .38 was the default concealed weapon of the 1960s. 

Again, great stuff. We may disagree on what the snub-nose what used for, but at least we are asking questions. 

[Joseph Borelli]

6 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

But there is no record of any similar examination done with the paper-bag revolver; why?

My guess is because the results of that examination didn’t or wouldn’t have fit their narrative that Oswald was the killer of Tippit. 
 

6 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

 Craford did it, and he did it with that revolver found in the paper bag.

i think Craford is a fascinating and very likely suspect in the Tippett murder. I think he was tasked with killing Oswald but then fled town once he realized it would be a suicide mission to kill him in police custody. Then that responsibility fell to Ruby after Craford left. In the mobs eyes if you were given a task and then delegated that task to someone else and they messed it up, it’s on you and you have to answer to the bosses.

 

It makes sense that he would possibly throw out the gun on the way to the highway because he really wouldn’t need it on his cross country drive up north (to like Minnesota or something right?) once he left Dallas.
 

Great work Greg I was never aware of this other 38. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

The murder weapon of the Tippit killing?

On the night of Nov 22/23, 1963, the night following the killing of officer Tippit in Oak Cliff by a killer using a .38 Special, someone abandoned a snub-nosed Smith & Wesson .38 Special revolver in a paper bag a few blocks away from the Carousel Club in downtown Dallas. Just threw that revolver in a paper bag by the side of a street out of a car window, just got rid of it. It was found by a citizen the next morning who turned it in to the Dallas Police (documentation quoted and linked below).

By that time--Saturday morning Nov 23--the narrative had already developed and was being reported around the world: Lee Harvey Oswald had assassinated JFK from his workplace at the Texas School Book Depository and then had shot and killed officer Tippit in Oak Cliff. Police had the revolver of Oswald. There was no missing murder weapon in the Tippit killing.

But the next morning after the killing of officer Tippit by a .38 Special revolver--the only known murder by handgun in the Dallas area that day--a mystery Smith & Wesson .38 Special revolver turned up abandoned on a downtown Dallas street. 

Think of the oddity of that timing.

Why would someone toss a Smith & Wesson .38 Special revolver in a paper bag out of a car on a street in downtown Dallas, the night of Nov 22/23, 1963? 

Think hard—is there any reason why anyone would do that that particular night?

There are only about two reasons I can think that make any sense: either that revolver had just been used in a crime such as an armed robbery or a murder and the perpetrator was abandoning an untraceable weapon so as not to be incriminated by having it found on their person if arrested, or, somebody who was not supposed to be in possession of a weapon was being pulled over by a police cruiser and threw it out a car window before coming to a stop, to avoid having it found in their possession.

The first question police might ask (one would think) would be whether there had been a homicide or gangland killing involving a handgun which might shed light on that abandoned snub-nosed .38 Smith & Wesson.

But the only handgun homicide in Dallas at that time was the killing of Tippit. And police already had (or thought they had) the murder weapon for that, the Oswald revolver.

Nevertheless it would still be assumed that the Dallas Police Department—the killing of officer Tippit by that exact kind of handgun hours earlier totally aside--would investigate that paper-bag revolver and have records of it. But in this case that is not what happened. The Dallas Police disappeared any record of that paper-bag .38 revolver. The only reason the existence of that revolver is known to have been in DPD custody the weekend of the assassination is from FBI documents first released in 1978 and first noticed in the 1990s. There is no issue that the FBI documents, and hence the underlying Dallas Police Department information from which the FBI documents derived, are inauthentic, nor has that been alleged. Here is the background as told by Bill Adams in the May 1996 issue of Fourth Decade (https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48693#relPageId=8) :

"The FBI unleashed a controversy in 1978 when they released 100,000 pages of documents concerning its investigation into the assassination of President Kennedy. Within those 100,000 pages was a very intriguing document. That same year the Assassination Information Bureau (AIB) reviewed the FBI document release and reported the discovery of various documents in the AIB's newsletter, Clandestine America. One issue of the newsletter mentioned that a .38 caliber revolver was discovered 'in a paper bag in the immediate vicinity of the assassination site.' 

"In the Fall of 1991 I was reading through Paul Hoch's collection of Clandestine America when I came across the AIB article on the revolver. I was intrigued by the potential implications of a second gun being found in Dealey Plaza [sic]. Over the next few months I contacted many assassination researchers and was disappointed to learn that none of them had ever heard of the revolver. (. . .)

"At this point I decided to use the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) to obtain any additional revolver documents that existed. During the last few days of 1991 I filed the first of many FOIA requests with the FBI regarding the revolver. My first request went to FBI Headquarters in Washington, D.C. Two months later the FBI responded to my request by sending copies of '2 pages of preprocessed material.' I was making progress faster than I expected and now possessed three documents concerning the revolver. The new documents provided more detail about the FBI investigation of the revolver and claimed the revolver had been found 'in [the] immediate vicinity of the assassination area.' I now could confirm that the AIB and Woods did in fact have two different documents on the revolver. These documents had apparently also been released as part of the FBI's 1978 release but had not been reported by the AIB. Four years later [1996], as I write this article, I am still awaiting the FBI's closure of this request and/or release of additional documents responsive to my request.

"During the summer of 1993 I gave up waiting for the FBI to complete my 1991 FOIA request. I filed a new FOIA request with each of the involved FBI Field Offices--Boston, Dallas, Philadelphia, and Springfield. Within a month I had responses from all four Field Offices. Springfield said they had no responsive documents but would refer me to FBI Headquarters. Both Dallas and Philadelphia referred me to FBI Headquarters as well. Boston however provided a bizarre response: they were 'currently unable to locate [their] files pertaining to the assassination.' Boston assured me that 'when/if the file is located, processing of [my] request will continue and [I would] be advised of the results.' Apparently they never did find their file as Boston has never sent another reply to my FOIA request.

"As a result of the assassination Records Collection Act (ARCA) of 1992 the FBI files reviewed by the HSCA were released to the National Archives. One of these FBI files turned out to be a two page document concerning the FBI's attempts to trace the revolver. This document also mentions that the revolver was 'found in a paper bag in the immediate vicinity of the assassination area.' I obtained this document from a different researcher and now possessed four different revolver documents. (. . .)

"Early in 1995 Paul Hoch sent me a copy of another AIB discovered document concerning that revolver. He discovered this document while looking for other material I had requested, unrelated to the revolver investigation. This document was also apparently included in the 1978 FBI document release. This document was a new fifth document that I had never seen before and my FOIA requests had not uncovered. The document provides the missing piece to the revolver puzzle. The document not only reveals where the revolver was found but who found it. The following quote from this document shows just how wrong I and other researchers were [concerning a Dealey Plaza location]:

"'On 11/23/63, Patrolman L. Raz brought into the Homicide and Robbery Bureau, Dallas PD, a brown paper sack which contained a snub-nosed .38 caliber Smith & Wesson, SN 893265...had been found near the curb at the corner of Ross and Lamar Streets and was turned in by one Willie Flat...'"

The corner of Ross and Lamar is only about 6 blocks, about 0.3 miles, from Jack Ruby’s Carousel Club at 1312-1/2 Commerce, where Curtis Craford aka Larry Crafard, with self-professed hit man experience, recently arrived to Dallas, was living. Ruby drove to his Club and picked up Craford ca. 4 am that night, the night Craford fled Dallas, about 2-3 hours before the citizen found the paper bag with the revolver and reported it. Looking on a map, the spot where the revolver was thrown out of a car window at Ross and Lamar is in excellent agreement with the route of a car taking a passenger from the Carousel Club to nearby interstate 35E going north. 

Here is the full text of the FBI document which refers to the find of that revolver turned in to the Dallas Police, as posted in Gil Jesus, “The Gun in the Bag”, https://jfkconspiracyforum.freeforums.net/thread/983/gun-bag.

MEMORANDUM

TO SAC, DALLAS (89-43) DATE: 11/25/63

FROM SA RICHARD E. HARRISON

SUBJECT: ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

On 11/23/63, Patrolman J. RAZ brought into the Homicide and Robbery Bureau, Dallas PD, a brown paper sack which contained a snub-nosed .38 caliber Smith & Wesson, SN 893265.

This gun had the word "England" on the cylinder and had been found at approximately 7:30 AM in a brown paper sack, together with an apple and an orange, near the curb at the corner of Ross and Lamar Streets and was turned in by one Willie Flat, white male, 9221 Metz Drive, employed at 4770 Memphis, to the Dallas PD.

2-Dallas

REH:cah

(2) FBI DL 89-43-636

That FBI document of 11/25/63 was followed by three other FBI documents (quoted at the same link above), dated Nov 29, Nov 29, and Nov 30, 1963, which report FBI efforts to trace the serial number and history of that firearm. Records were found from the serial number that that revolver had been shipped by the Smith & Wesson company on Jan 13, 1942 to the US Government, Hartford Ordnance, Hartford, Conn. It was reported by a sales manager of Smith & Wesson that 

"shipments to Hartford Ordnance at that time were destined for England under Lend-Lease Agreement and stamping on cylinder is probably a proof-mark of that government certifying its acceptance. Such weapons are known to have been sold surplus in England, altered and rechambered in that country to accommodate thirty-eight special ammunition. Such weapons were subsequently imported for sale by U.S. gun dealers."

(Note in CE 2011, for example, the interchangeability in terminology of “.38” and “.38 Special”, in description of the same kind of revolver—original .38 revolvers which had been modified and rechambered to fire the slightly smaller and superior .38 Special bullets.)

The FBI documents do not give further tracing information of what became of that serial-number weapon after its original shipment in 1942 to the US Government in Connecticut and then likely shipment to England and likely return to the US for sale as surplus.

It was .38 Special bullets which killed officer Tippit. A snub-nosed .38 modified to fire .38 Special bullets is both the kind of revolver of the paper bag and the kind of revolver that Oswald had, making two distinct weapons of the same kind, both compatible with having been used in the killing of officer Tippit, but one was not used in that killing.

Which of those two was the one not used in the Tippit killing, the one not used in the Tippit killing, although an exact match to the kind of weapon that was used, being coincidence? 

The snub-nosed .38 Special may have been the most common type of concealed handgun in America at the time. This means Oswald’s possession of a snub-nosed .38 Special revolver could well be coincidence (carried for self-defense that day, not used to murder Tippit), if the other snub-nosed .38 Special (the one tossed from a car in a paper bag) was the murder weapon used to kill Tippit.

There is no record that the FBI obtained that revolver from the Dallas Police Department or ran it through examination in the FBI lab in Washington, D.C. (at least there is no hint that was done in known documentation), although DPD’s possession of that revolver apparently was an issue of some interest to the FBI. There is no record the FBI compared any of the four bullets taken from Tippit's body in the autopsy to bullets fired from that paper-bag revolver found hours after that killing of Tippit, to test for a possible match. Such comparison was done with bullets fired from Oswald’s revolver (with the FBI reporting inconclusive results, neither confirming nor excluding a match). But there is no record of any similar examination done with the paper-bag revolver; why?

Is this information concerning this paper-bag revolver not simply stunning, with respect to the Tippit case? It should be. 

That paper-bag snub-nosed .38 found abandoned in downtown Dallas some time before 7:30 am Nov 23, 1963: the mention of the fruit, the apple and the orange, also in the paper bag with the revolver, as well as the likely high traffic and visibility of anything tossed into the street at the Ross and Lamar location, suggests the tossing of that revolver was recent, likely earlier that same night—and that paper-bag revolver was not identified with any other crime, nor any owner. Whereas a citizen carrying a concealed weapon does not necessarily suggest or imply that citizen murdered or intends to murder, the tossing of an untraceable handgun in a paper bag on a city street does suggest or imply just that--that the weapon very well may have been used in a recent crime or homicide such as a murder or a hit; that is why it was tossed.

Which of the two revolvers is more likely to have been the murder weapon in the killing of Tippit—a killing which had a professional coup de grace shot into the forehead as found in the autopsy and as told by witness Jack Tatum (who feared to come forth at the time because he feared mob involvement)? The handgun found on Oswald at his arrest? Or the handgun tossed because it had been recently used in a homicide or contract killing—tossed the very night following the Tippit killing, tossed only a few blocks from the Carousel Club the very night of Craford's flight from Dallas, after he was picked up in a car at the Carousel Club by Jack Ruby and George Senator at about 4 am.?

And if there was not a connection of that paper-bag .38 revolver to the Tippit killing, why did the Dallas Police disappear all trace of records of that revolver, and the FBI have inadequate records as well? Why is the owner of record of that weapon by serial number not known, why is no ballistics testing by either DPD or FBI known? Why the coincidence in the timing? Why the coverup?

Let us go to the conclusion that might be found by the fictional television detective “Columbo”, if this had been a case investigated by Columbo: that abandoned paper-bag snub-nosed Smith & Wesson .38 Special was the murder weapon of Tippit. That was the murder weapon used by Curtis Craford to murder Tippit after which he reloaded and went to the Texas Theatre to murder Oswald, knowing he was there, except that intent to murder was thwarted by the arrival of police who arrested Oswald, saving Oswald’s life for the moment. The Tippit murder weapon was not Oswald's snub-nosed .38 revolver, although elements of the Dallas Police sought to have it look that way and to have investigators conclude that way. Oswald was innocent of the murder of Tippit. Craford did it, and he did it with that revolver found in the paper bag.

~ ~ ~

What became of that paper-bag .38 Special Smith & Wesson revolver? Where is that revolver today? Nobody knows. 

What was going on with this kind of (in this case almost literal) smoking-gun physical evidence which disappeared while in police custody—evidence that very well could have resulted in complete exoneration of Oswald in the Tippit killing if it had been allowed to become known and investigated?

Gone, just gone. Never examined for ballistics characteristics, fingerprints, or comparison with Tippit body bullets. 

Just disappeared, vanished. 

The murder weapon of Tippit.

Gone, likely forever.

From Dallas Police Department hands the day after Tippit was killed. 

Wow Greg, very interesting, excellent work !! 👍

JP

[Pete Mellor]

Greg, you have posted part of this info previously, very interesting stuff.  Benjamin's thoughts are the same as mine, regarding poss use in the Plaza.  Also, if the gun was a previous murder weapon, it could have been used and hidden for quite a time prior to its 23rd Nov. dumping, an ideal time to sow confusion.

[Kirk Gallaway]

Whether you agree with Greg about a specific stand he's taken or theory he's proposed. He's done a lot to enlighten gray areas and make people research further.

He's been generally respectful and not at all obnoxious, but stands his ground.

That anybody here should be threatened and putting Greg on "ignore" says more about them than it does about Greg.

[Pete Mellor]

6 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

That anybody here should be threatened and putting Greg on "ignore" says more about them than it does about Greg.

Absolutely!

[Ian Lloyd]

On 7/19/2022 at 3:46 AM, Greg Doudna said:

Here is the full text of the FBI document which refers to the find of that revolver turned in to the Dallas Police, as posted in Gil Jesus, “The Gun in the Bag”, https://jfkconspiracyforum.freeforums.net/thread/983/gun-bag.

MEMORANDUM

TO SAC, DALLAS (89-43) DATE: 11/25/63

FROM SA RICHARD E. HARRISON

SUBJECT: ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

On 11/23/63, Patrolman J. RAZ brought into the Homicide and Robbery Bureau, Dallas PD, a brown paper sack which contained a snub-nosed .38 caliber Smith & Wesson, SN 893265.

This gun had the word "England" on the cylinder and had been found at approximately 7:30 AM in a brown paper sack, together with an apple and an orange, near the curb at the corner of Ross and Lamar Streets and was turned in by one Willie Flat, white male, 9221 Metz Drive, employed at 4770 Memphis, to the Dallas PD.

2-Dallas

REH:cah

(2) FBI DL 89-43-636

 

9Emphais mine)

What did LHO reportedly say he took to work on the morning of the 22nd?

[Bill Brown]

On 7/18/2022 at 10:46 PM, Greg Doudna said:

The murder weapon of the Tippit killing?

On the night of Nov 22/23, 1963, the night following the killing of officer Tippit in Oak Cliff by a killer using a .38 Special, someone abandoned a snub-nosed Smith & Wesson .38 Special revolver in a paper bag a few blocks away from the Carousel Club in downtown Dallas. Just threw that revolver in a paper bag by the side of a street out of a car window, just got rid of it.

Greg, you state that the paper bag was thrown from a car window.

 

In Dale Myers' blog, he points out that this isn't said anywhere.  Where did you get it from?  And by the way, it was found more than just a "few blocks" away from the Carousel Club.

[Tom Gram]

9 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

Greg, you state that the paper bag was thrown from a car window.

 

In Dale Myers' blog, he points out that this isn't said anywhere.  Where did you get it from?  And by the way, it was found more than just a "few blocks" away from the Carousel Club.

Greg answered this in another thread. It’s a pretty damn reasonable assumption that a revolver found near the curb on the side of the road in a paper bag was tossed from a car, so that’s where Greg got it from. Sure someone walking could have dropped it there, but who cares? Either way the gun is suspicious, and the serial number tracing paperwork appears to no longer exist. There is no way in hell the FBI didn’t trace this gun to its ultimate destination, so where are those documents? That is the issue here, not whether or not Greg Doudna made a completely logical assumption about a gun found near the curb on the side of the road.🙄

[Bill Brown]

2 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Greg answered this in another thread. It’s a pretty damn reasonable assumption that a revolver found near the curb on the side of the road in a paper bag was tossed from a car, so that’s where Greg got it from. Sure someone walking could have dropped it there, but who cares? Either way the gun is suspicious, and the serial number tracing paperwork appears to no longer exist. There is no way in hell the FBI didn’t trace this gun to its ultimate destination, so where are those documents? That is the issue here, not whether or not Greg Doudna made a completely logical assumption about a gun found near the curb on the side of the road.🙄

"Either way the gun is suspicious..."

 

What makes the gun suspicious to you, related to the murder of J.D. Tippit?

 

If conspirators were trying to discard a weapon used in the killing of a police officer just 45 minutes after the assassination, do you really think the best way they could come up with is to simply throw it down in the street?

 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Bill Brown

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

"Either way the gun is suspicious..."

 

What makes the gun suspicious to you, related to the murder of J.D. Tippit?

 

If conspirators were trying to discard a weapon used in the killing of a police officer just 45 minutes after the assassination, do you really think the best way they could come up with is to simply throw it down in the street?

 

I just meant suspicious in general, given the timing and type of weapon. Some people think it might have been used as a diversionary shot from behind the fence or something. The point is we have no idea, because the tracing documents have “disappeared”. That’s what’s really suspicious, IMO. 

[Allen Lowe]

On 7/20/2022 at 12:06 AM, Kirk Gallaway said:

Whether you agree with Greg about a specific stand he's taken or theory he's proposed. He's done a lot to enlighten gray areas and make people research further.

He's been generally respectful and not at all obnoxious, but stands his ground.

That anybody here should be threatened and putting Greg on "ignore" says more about them than it does about Greg.

I’m not threatened I’m just bored to death by his filibustering. There are certain people who think the mere accumulation of “facts” equals truth. It does not. 

 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Allen Lowe said:

I’m not threatened I’m just bored to death by his filibustering. There are certain people who think the mere accumulation of “facts” equals truth. It does not. 

 

Investigating = accumulating facts, it may lead to a result or not

Greg pointed out there's likely more unknow facts (docs) worth investigating that one

Investigating also equals many hours/days/weeks/months searching for facts,

and yes some times it's boring and confusing, but I admire those that will pick up the challenge.

If they share some  reports, I am thankfull, not bored.

 

 

[Allen Lowe]

19 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

Investigating = accumulating facts, it may lead to a result or not

Greg pointed out there's likely more unknow facts (docs) worth investigating that one

Investigating also equals many hours/days/weeks/months searching for facts,

and yes some times it's boring and confusing, but I admire those that will pick up the challenge.

If they share some  reports, I am thankfull, not bored.

 

 

It’s not the question of his citing numerous facts and reports; his opinion is like a run-on sentence, as though the sheer accumulation of space proves his point, which it does not. His method of doing it destroys any effectiveness he might otherwise have. Look at Jim DiEugenio, Pat Speer, Larry Hancock: the most knowledgeable of anyone here, none of them tries to bury the lead.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Allen Lowe