Jim Hagerty first CTer ever

[Pat Speer]

3 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Related link of interest:

Jim Hagerty + A Study Of When Oswald's Name Was First Mentioned On TV & Radio

 

David, you corrected me in that I thought WBAP was the TV station when you said it was the radio station. But the TV station could not have been far behind, yes? Have you ever looked into when the TV station first mentioned Oswald by name? Or any other station beyond WFAA? Because we all know that newsmen hate to get scooped and it seems clear that every media outlet in town would have been spewing Oswald's name within minutes of its first mention at 2:37. 

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

Re: Malcolm Kilduff....

Here's something I said to John Barbour in 2014:

"But you surely cannot believe that when Kilduff casually pointed to his temple that he was inferring that he knew precisely where the bullet entered, can you? That's absurd. Kilduff was merely pointing to his head in a general way to indicate that the President was killed by a bullet through his head/brain. Nothing more than that. And AFAIK, Kilduff was never a conspiracy believer (but I could be mistaken about that)."

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2016/10/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1196.html

As I recall, Kilduff studied at the Hugh Aynesworth school of cognitive dissonance. They both insisted the last two shots were bang-bang, right on top of each other. But they both insisted Oswald fired all the shots. 

They didn't seem to grasp that if the shots were within a second or two, as implied by their statements, that it couldn't have been Oswald acting alone. And they didn't seem to grasp that 99% of all LN theorists have deluded themselves into thinking the last two shots were 5 seconds apart. Not bang-bang. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Pat Speer

[David Von Pein]

29 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

99% of all LN theorists have deluded themselves into thinking the last two shots were 5 seconds apart. Not bang-bang. 

CTers always ignore the multiple witnesses who said the shots were pretty much "EVENLY SPACED" vs. being "bunched together". At my webpage below, I cite seven such "evenly spaced" examples (plus Nellie Connally, who thought the last two shots were spaced farther apart than shots 1 and 2):

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/05/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-710.html

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Tony Rose]

16 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

CTers always ignore the multiple witnesses who said the shots were pretty much "EVENLY SPACED" vs. being "bunched together". At my webpage below, I cite seven such "evenly spaced" examples (plus Nellie Connally, who thought the last two shots were spaced farther apart than shots 1 and 2):

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/05/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-710.html

 

LNers always ignore the witnesses who said there were more than three shots.  When looking at the questions of "spacing," you have to decide which shots the witnesses are referring to.

[Vince Palamara]

4 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

 

 

Be prepared to be bummed out, David- Kilduff told Harry Livingstone in High Treason 2 that he did not believe the single bullet theory. Likewise, Clint Hill and Paul Landis both came out in the same year (2016) to denounce the single bullet theory: for Hill's part, in his book Five Presidents; for Landis, the Cleveland Plain Dealer.

[Vince Palamara]

50 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

As I recall, Kilduff studied at the Hugh Aynesworth school of cognitive dissonance. They both insisted the last two shots were bang-bang, right on top of each other. But they both insisted Oswald fired all the shots. 

They didn't seem to grasp that if the shots were within a second or two, as implied by their statements, that it couldn't have been Oswald acting alone. And they didn't seem to grasp that 99% of all LN theorists have deluded themselves into thinking the last two shots were 5 seconds apart. Not bang-bang. 

 

[Vince Palamara]

22 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

CTers always ignore the multiple witnesses who said the shots were pretty much "EVENLY SPACED" vs. being "bunched together". At my webpage below, I cite seven such "evenly spaced" examples (plus Nellie Connally, who thought the last two shots were spaced farther apart than shots 1 and 2):

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/05/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-710.html

 

David- Hi! This video will make you a conspiracy theorist, my friend: 

 

[Pat Speer]

1 minute ago, David Von Pein said:

CTers always ignore the multiple witnesses who said the shots were pretty much "EVENLY SPACED" vs. being "bunched together". At my webpage below, I cite seven such "evenly spaced" examples (plus Nellie Connally):

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/05/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-710.html

 

So...what are you saying? It would appear you are shooting yourself in the foot.

The vast majority of LNs subscribe to what I call the LPM theory (Lattimer, Posner, and Myers). it holds that the first shot was fired circa 160, the second circa 224, and the last circa 313. This suggests the gap between the last two shots was 36% or so longer than the gap between the first two shots.

Well, guess what? The effect of stress on people's perception of time has been widely studied, and I have read a number of these studies. They found that time s-l-o-w-s down for people as a stressful situations develop and that their estimation of the length of a stressful episode is on average 50% longer than the actual episode. Well, this means that, should the shots have actually been fired at 160, 224, and 313, that people would routinely remember the gap between the last two shots as being roughly twice as long as the gap between the first two shots, and that no one but no one would remember the last two shots as being close together. 

IOW, the fact a few people thought the shots were evenly spaced does not help the Oswald did it scenario...at all.

[Pat Speer]

16 minutes ago, Vince Palamara said:

Be prepared to be bummed out, David- Kilduff told Harry Livingstone in High Treason 2 that he did not believe the single bullet theory. Likewise, Clint Hill and Paul Landis both came out in the same year (2016) to denounce the single bullet theory: for Hill's part, in his book Five Presidents; for Landis, the Cleveland Plain Dealer.

Here's a sample of Kilduff quotes from patspeer.com, Chapter 6: (note that he disputed the single-bullet theory as far back as 1966, when the Johnson Administration was trying to make it official government policy.)

 

Assistant Press Secretary Malcolm Kilduff sat on the right side of the front seat of the “pool” car. (11-22-63 1:30 P.M. press conference in which Kilduff announced Kennedy's death) (When asked how many shots he'd heard) "I was in the pool car. We heard three." (When asked if he knew where they came from) "They came from the right side." (December 1963 audio recording found in the National Archives as Dialogue on Dallas, Group W, as presented in President Kennedy Has Been Shot, 2003) "We saw a flash of pink-which of course was Mrs. Kennedy. We realized she was doing something. I saw the Secret Service agent in the follow-up car raise the rifle. At that point we realized these were shots." (5-2-64 and 5-19-65 interviews with William Manchester, as represented in The Death of a President, 1967) (On the first shot) "Kilduff, in the pool car directly under the gun, asked 'What was that?'" (11-13-66 AP article by Merriman Smith) “Malcolm Kilduff of the White House press staff who was seated beside me in the front seat of the pool car heard only three shots.” (11-22-66 AP article found in the Cedar Rapids Gazette) "Kilduff says he does disagree with the Commission's finding that the first bullet that struck Kennedy and passed through his neck was the one that wounded Texas Gov. Connally. A second shot in the head killed Kennedy. "In my mind," Kilduff said, "there were three shots fired. I have verified that with other people who were riding in the same car. I have verified it with Secret Service Agents."... Kilduff said he had talked to Connally who agrees he was hit by a separate bullet, that the governor said he heard the first shot and was turning to look back when he was hit." (11-24-66 newspaper column by Crosby S. Noyes in the Washington Star) "After the first shot he recalls that Merriman Smith of the United Press International asked, "What was that?" and that he replied, "It sounded to me like a firecracker." The second shot, according to Kilduff, came at least five seconds after the first. The third, which killed Kennedy, followed after a shorter interval." (Late 1966 interview with Lawrence Schiller recounted in The Scavengers And Critics of the Warren Report, published 1967) (On how many shots were fired) "Malcolm Kilduff heard three." (Schiller interview as presented on the Capitol Records release The Controversy, 1967) "The first time I heard a shot was just after having said to Merriman Smith, after looking at a sign, 'What in the world is the Texas Book Depository.' My first impression was it was a firecracker. But the second shot, for some reason, we instinctively felt it was a rifle shot. Then when the third shot came, which was nearer to the second shot than the second was to the first, we couldn't tell whether the shots were coming toward the motorcade or away from the motorcade. We could tell it was coming from the right. I would have to go 'bang (waits 2 seconds) bang (waits 1 second) bang.' About 5 seconds between the--5 1/2 to 6 seconds--between the first and second shot and about 2 1/2 seconds between the second and third shot, about half the time, in other words." (3-15-76 oral history with the JFK Library) (On the moment of the first shot) "Merriman Smith, if I recall--and I was sitting next to him in the car--had just finished mentioning that, you know, 'You guys have really pulled off a real coup here,' when suddenly we heard what we thought was the backfire of a car or a firecracker." (On the shooting) "we were directly under the window in the Texas School Book Depository...when the first--what turned out to be a shot--was fired. Merriman Smith said, 'What was that?" And I recall very clearly saying, 'It sounded to me like a firecracker," 'cause it was my first thought that it was a firecracker. Because it was around the holiday season, and in Texas they sell fireworks. And I remember that--why I remember it, but I do remember it--as going through my mind that's exactly what it was. And it was not until the second shot was fired--and there was enough time in there for me to say, "What was that?" --rather, Merriman Smith saying, "What was that?" and my saying, "It sounded to me like a firecracker." And that takes up about four seconds--we've timed it since then--before we realized it was a gunshot because we saw the secret service agents all look up and to the right and to the rear which would have been directly above my right shoulder. Now, I'll be very frank with you, Bill. I cannot say in all truthfulness and honesty that I realized there was a shot coming right over my own head, because there was a slight bowl there at that underpass at Dealey Plaza, and the reverberations of the echoes just... I looked to my right, instinctively I looked to my right, but I did not know where to look, and I did not look up to that window. I'll be frank with you. I did not, because I could not place where that noise was coming from, but I knew it was off to my right. And, of course, we now know that it was right directly in my right ear." (When asked if he heard two shots) "No,no. I heard the first one. There was a longer pause between the first and the second than there was between the second and the third...I know I heard three shots. Nobody's going to tell me I didn't hear three shots. I mean I know that there was a long pause because there was that little interchange of conversation between Merriman Smith and me between the first and the second shot. Then the third shot got off very quickly." (When asked to describe Kennedy's wounds as he observed them upon the removal of Kennedy from the limousine outside Parkland hospital) "The left side of his head was a bloody mass (sic, he means mess) is all you can say. The only thing I did look for was some sign of life, and I could tell from under his shirt around his waist he was breathing. But his head was such a mess that I could not tell what the extent of his injuries were."

[David Von Pein]

52 minutes ago, Vince Palamara said:

Be prepared to be bummed out, David- Kilduff told Harry Livingstone in High Treason 2 that he did not believe the single bullet theory. Likewise, Clint Hill and Paul Landis both came out in the same year (2016) to denounce the single bullet theory.

That doesn't bum me out, Vince. I'm accustomed to most people being dead wrong when it comes to their rejecting the wholly-logical SBT. (And they are dead wrong.) 😁

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

48 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

IOW, the fact a few people thought the shots were evenly spaced does not help the Oswald did it scenario...at all.

But it does indicate that there most certainly is some disagreement among the earwitnesses as to the spacing between the gunshots. But to hear most CTers tell it, ALL of the witnesses (or pert-near) belong in the "Bang.........Bang-Bang" category. And that's just not so.

Edited July 21, 2022 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

David, you corrected me in that I thought WBAP was the TV station when you said it was the radio station. But the TV station could not have been far behind, yes?

Oh yes, WBAP-TV probably did mention Oswald's name at about that same time (2:40 to 2:45 CST). I wouldn't have any idea, however, what anyone at WBAP-TV in Fort Worth had to say about anything, because (AFAIK) that station's tapes have never surfaced. I've never seen them at any rate.

 

2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Have you ever looked into when the TV station first mentioned Oswald by name? Or any other station beyond WFAA? Because we all know that newsmen hate to get scooped and it seems clear that every media outlet in town would have been spewing Oswald's name within minutes of its first mention at 2:37. 

Yes. I even talk about some of the other stations/networks in the article I linked previously:

CBS-TV first mentioned Oswald's name at 2:59 PM CST ("Leo H. Oswald", according to Walter Cronkite at that time).

NBC-TV brought up the rear in uttering the name "Oswald" (as far as the 3 national TV networks). They didn't say that name on the air until 3:20 PM CST, which was 40 minutes after ABC-TV.

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Vince Palamara]

59 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

That doesn't bum me out, Vince. I'm accustomed to most people being dead wrong when it comes to their rejecting the wholly-logical SBT. (And they are dead wrong.) 😁

 

This is the kinder, gentler David; very cool! 

[Ron Bulman]

3 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

This is the kinder, gentler David; very cool! 

But not right.

[Karl Kinaski]

9 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

So, you think somebody was firing a weapon from on top of the Triple Underpass, eh? Okay.

No. Jay Watson points with his finger to the painted bushes in front of the triple underpass when he says, at ca. 43min25 sec of your clip " ... he was shot from up and here ..." Indicating the bushes in front of the picket fence ... Watson did not say "he was shot from the triple underpass" ... just watch your clip ...

Edited July 22, 2022 by Karl Kinaski