"THE MEN WHO KILLED KENNEDY" DVDs 1-9: flawed but indispensable.

[Vince Palamara]

"THE MEN WHO KILLED KENNEDY" DVDs 1-9: flawed but indispensable.

While I already had the official DVD release of parts 1-6 and the official release of parts 7-9 of The Men Who Killed Kennedy (TMWKK), I decided to take a chance and buy the complete series on Ebay, as it was just two DVDs (as opposed to four over two different packages) and contained them all. Parts 1-6 are in pristine condition but parts 7-9 have a slight bootleg quality to them (turns out that this IS a bootleg; oh, well-it was cheap). Still, having watched them all again, here is my 2022 assessment:

First off, wow: so many people from this series have passed away (Larry Harris, Dr. Charles Crenshaw, Phil Willis, Marilyn Willis, L.C. Graves, Jim Leavelle, etc. etc. etc.)!

Second: while the newer parts 6-9 have their moments, parts 1-5 are clearly the best overall, yet even they have some shortcomings.

I also must say that I adore the music in this series, especially the theme music at the end of parts 1-5. I should also add that this series is quite valuable for all the films, photos and re-enactment type filming of actual locations in Texas, Florida, New Orleans and elsewhere.

[the official DVDs have the narration by British narrator Hilary Minster. The ones broadcast on television in America, at least parts 1-5, are largely by A&E's Bill Kurtis using the identical scripts]

PART ONE- THE COUP D-ETAT (1988/1991):

I give this one a solid A and it is clearly one of the best. The late Paul O'Connor, the late Gary Mack, the late Penn Jones [uncredited], Dr. Cyril Wecht [now 90], Robert Groden [now 76], the late John Connally, the late Ralph Yarborough, the late Dr. Robert McClelland, the late Dr. Paul Peters, the late Aubrey Rike, the late Eugene Boone, the late Paul Bentley, the late Bob Carroll, the late Gus Rose, the late Phil Willis, the late Marilyn Willis, Linda Kay Willis [now 73], the late Butch Burroughs [uncredited in this episode], the late L.C. Graves, the late Jim Leavelle, the late Marilyn Sitzman, the late Harold Weisberg, the late James Tague, the late Seth Kantor, the late Billy Grammar, Mary Moorman [now 90], and the late Don Archer all make noteworthy appearances. There is good usage of the Zapruder, Nix and other films, including archival clips of Jack Ruby, Allen Dulles, and others. Even if one is of the lone-nut inclination, there is a lot to like about this episode from an archival/pure reporting standpoint. The series gets off to a strong start here.

PART TWO- THE FORCES OF DARKNESS (1988/1991):

I give this episode a C to C- (with elements of an F), as this one takes a rapid downturn and has some dubious stuff in it. Beverly Oliver (the so-called Babushka Lady...), the late Charles Brehm, the late Jack White, the late Gordon Arnold, the late Ed Hoffman, Steve Rivele [now 73], and a few others from part one make an appearance. The so-called Badgeman image in the Moorman photo is discussed at length, then we get into the whole Steve Rivele/Corsican mafia crud that has largely been debunked. For his part, Rivele says: "I believe that Sarti was involved, but apparently I was wrong on the other two. If I were working on the case today, I'd look at Paul Mondoloni of Montreal... Two points I would add: I saw a documentary TV show last year about the KGB's investigation of the assassination, and was amazed to learn that they came to the same conclusion as me. Second, I was contacted two years ago by a former CIA agent (who worked in the mind control program among others), who told me that I was right about the assassination. Small comfort but better than nothing." [source: Stephen Rivele (spartacus-educational.com) ] As well as Lucien Sarti, he also named Sauveur Pironti and Roger Bocognani as being involved in the killing. However, Pironti and Bocognani both had alibis and Rivele was forced to withdraw the allegation.

Rivele is the co-author of The Plumber: The True Story of How One Good Man Helped Destroy the Entire Philadelphia Mafia (1991), The Mothershed Case (1992) and Lieutenant Ramsey's War: From Horse Soldier to Guerrilla Commander (1996). He also wrote the screenplays for Nixon (1995) and Ali (2001).

 

After an ok start of some dubious quality, this one was painful to watch.

 

PART THREE- THE COVER-UP (1988/1991):

A big recovery here, as this episode garners a grade of a B-plus to an A. The late FBI agent James Hosty, Gary Shaw, Bill Newman, Gayle Newman, the late Mary Woodward (Pillsworth), the late Col. Fletcher Prouty, the late Bobby Hargis, the late Luke Mooney, the late Charles Harrelson, the late Roy Vaughn, the late Larry Harris, the late Patrick Dean, the late Everett Kay, as well as several from part one, make an appearance here. Some good stuff related to Jack Ruby and Joseph Milteer and some dubious stuff regarding the 3 tramps.

Parts one and two were basically one episode upon their original release, while parts 3, 4, and 5 are the outtakes. Seeing how the Rivele “revelations” were of a dubious nature, I am glad that Nigel Turner saw fit to release the rest of the footage in three more episodes, as they largely redeem the series.

PART FOUR- THE PATSY (1988/1991):

This episode, all about Lee Harvey Oswald, is the other essential episode in this series and, like episode one, garners a strong A grade. Ruth Paine [90 in a few days], Buell Wesley Frazier [now 78], the late Harold Norman, the late Marrion Baker, the late Helen Markham, the late Ted Callaway, the late Butch Burroughs [credited this time], the late Gerald Hill, the late Paul Groody, the late Jim Garrison, the late Edwin McGhee, the late Reeves Morgan, and a few others from episode one make noteworthy appearances here. As with episode one, people of both a pro and anti-conspiracy background will find much to admire here.

There are valuable clips of Oswald’s statements to the press during his captivity, silent footage of Donald Wayne House, Oswald leafletting in New Orleans, audio excerpts of Oswald on the radio, and fascinating video footage of the 1981 exhumation of Oswald, among other items.

The Tippit case, the Garrison take on Oswald and New Orleans (including the Clinton, LA incident) and other Oswald items are discussed. Like episode one, this one is well worth your time and attention.

PART FIVE- THE WITNESSES (1988/1991):

I give this one a B-plus grade, deducting a little only because it has an “outtake” kind of feel to it. Quite a few participants from the prior four episodes make an appearance with extended or different comments this time around. In fact, not one new participant is introduced, thus my defining this one as a bonus cut/compilation/ outtakes episode.

That said, several of the on-the-cutting-room-floor comments are noteworthy and I am glad they saw the light of day. Mary Woodward laments that the JFK limo did not speed up in time (something she would pontificate upon during her 1993 C-SPAN appearance). Detective Jim Leavelle states that Oswald said that President Johnson’s views on Cuba would be identical to Kennedy's, making one wonder why the supposed lone-nut, pro-Castro Oswald would want to kill Kennedy in the first place if no “reward” was forthcoming. Larry Harris speaks about the unfairness of the Oswald police lineups. Gary Mack discusses the “fake” Secret Service agent(s) encountered by Joe Marshall Smith (and others) in Dealey Plaza. Harold Weisberg waxes poetically about both JFK and the media.

Overall, a very good (if slightly uneven) way to end the original part of the series.

PART SIX- THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE (1995):

After a roughly 4-year lull, Nigel Turner returns with an interesting mixed bag of revelations. I give this one between a B-minus to B-plus. Part six is the first of four new(er) episodes that have a video---as opposed to film---feel to them, thus making for a crisper visual feel.

Marina Oswald Porter states that her late first husband Lee was “absolutely innocent of the murder of President Kennedy” and “I know he is innocent”, bold statements to start off this new episode. The HSCA’s Robert Tanenbaum makes a couple brief appearances but does not really contribute much at all. One almost gets the impression he was added to fill out the program, although I could be wrong.

The late Tom Wilson, from my neck of the woods in Pittsburgh, PA (like Dr. Cyril Wecht and the late Jerrol Custer, but I digress), makes a lengthy appearance of both a fascinating and somewhat dubious---but nevertheless intriguing---nature. He claims to have unique image processing techniques that demonstrate, via the original (or close to original) assassination films and photos, that President Kennedy was struck from the front, thus indicating a conspiracy. I met Wilson in 1991 (11/22-11/23/1991, to be exact- during an interview of Jerrol Custer by author Harry Livingstone that wound up in High Treason 2) and he was a sincere and intelligent man; definitely no nut. That said, his processes were never peer reviewed and, ultimately, are inconclusive at best. Still, fascinating to watch just the same. Wilson concludes his lengthy segment stating his conviction that the fatal shot to JFK must have originated from the Elm Street storm drain, the perfect segue into the next segment and guest.

Jack Brazil demonstrates in person in Dealey Plaza his opinion that the fatal shot did indeed originate from either the storm drain on Elm Street and/or the adjoining one on the corner of the underpass and grassy knoll above. As with the Wilson segment, this is entertaining but, to be kind, inconclusive at best and perhaps dubious at worst. Still, with great production values, camera angles and dramatic music, this part of the program is strangely gripping, even if one’s brain is screaming “Hmmm-I don’t know about this.”

Next comes the highly dubious and debunked (by the ARRB) “revelations” of the late Colonel Dan Marvin and his notion that William Bruce Pitzer, stationed at Bethesda, was assassinated as part of the extended JFK assassination conspiracy and that he was almost recruited to be the assassin. I really won’t waste your time on this one- see the ARRB’s Final Report for the debunking. This segment was painful to watch.

The late Dennis David makes an interesting appearance (much different that the one he gave to author David Lifton in the BEST EVIDENCE RESEARCH VIDEO) wherein he claims to have seen a film and photos that the aforementioned Pitzer had in his possession that depicted the right rear of Kennedy’s head missing and a right temple (entry) wound. I met Dennis in 2016 and he seemed like a nice and genuine man. It is really hard to say he was lying about this, but without the film and photos, it is hard to be conclusive about this.

The late Bill Turner, Thomas Hartmann and Lamar Waldron make somewhat boring (to me) contributions to round out the program about Oswald, the CIA/Mafia plots to kill Castro and, in the case of Hartmann and Waldron, the so-called Operation Freedom stuff (which would morph into C-Day for their 2005 book Ultimate Sacrifice).

PART SEVEN- THE SMOKING GUNS (2003):

As an actual participant in this program, perhaps I am too biased to write a review of it, but here goes. I would give the first 40 minutes or so of the program a stunning A-plus review, while giving the awful last 20 minutes a solid F-minus. This episode is a real paradox to me: truly the (very) good, (very) bad and (truly) ugly. First, let me say at the outset that it was Professor James Fetzer who showed up unannounced on my door on 8/11/2001 (yes, exactly one month before 9/11) to invite me to participate in this program. A little over a year later, in September 2002, the one and only Nigel Turner showed up at my door unannounced (luckily, I was home between jobs then) and we went to my sister’s house (away on vacation; my apartment was deemed an unsatisfactory location) to begin what would turn out to be a SIXTEEN HOUR (over two days) filming, yet I only received a few scant minutes when the show finally aired in November 2003 (parts 7, 8, and 9 drew massive ratings, were shown 4-5 times each and the VHS and DVD sales were thru the roof: over 50K sold, as verified by two different History Channel customer service reps at the time [and, no-I made not a cent]).

I will first spare you the well-worn details, but parts 7-9 were banned in April 2004 and only parts 1-6 were still available on DVD. Since then, of all networks, NEWSMAX TV began several airings of parts 7 and 8 in 2019-2020, while all 9 parts have been available on You Tube and (bootleg) DVD for years, as well.

The first segment begins with a look at the JFK Secret Service and the destruction of motorcade records during the ARRB’s tenure (file video of the ARRB board members and the final report are shown). Despite later going over the edge after 9/11 and (especially) Sandy Hook, Fetzer does a pretty good job summarizing both the destruction of records and the agency’s performance on 11/22/63, which acts as pretty good lead into my segment.

Although only given roughly 3 and a half minutes to work with, Nigel did a masterful job with editing and did a really good job covering the bases and showing very good archival films from the Dallas motorcade. Gratefully, the WFAA/ABC black and white video of the start of the motorcade at Love Field is shown, although I make a minor error (later vindicated somewhat) by stating that the agent who three times protested being called away from the limo was Secret Service agent Henry Rybka---it was actually Donald Lawton. That said, as it turns out, Rybka ALSO jogged with the limo and appears in both still photos and newsreels just before the start of the better-known WFAA video begins. I am pleased with the overall rundown of Secret Service deficiencies I was able to cram in there, although I believe my 14-plus minutes of air time on the 2016 DVD/Blu Ray A Coup in Camelot (filmed in 2013) is much better overall (even my 2021 appearance on the UK/Australia/Ireland documentary The JFK Assassination is a tad better and much longer, but I again digress [my as-yet-unreleased appearance on the 2013 documentary KILL KING 63 is very similar to A Coup in Camelot, so if it never surfaces, so be it]).

Journalist and author Connie Kritzberg (deceased) talks about how she spoke to Drs. Malcolm Perry and Kemp Clark and how what she conveyed in her article was changed by the FBI against her knowledge until after the fact. The late Dr. Charles Crenshaw, the late Dr. Robert Livingston, and the late Dr. Evalea Glanges all make valuable contributions.

The late Professor Doug Weldon, Attorney at Law, has a fascinating segment about the JFK limousine windshield and the evidence of both a hole in the windshield and how it was later destroyed. Through his interview with the late George Whitaker, who worked for the Ford Motor Corporation, as well as audio excerpts and a copy of his letter, demonstrates further how the windshield had a hole in it, as well as the destruction of this vital piece of evidence.

Dr. David Mantik, who was also featured with me on A COUP IN CAMELOT and would later appear on JFK REVISITED, makes a valuable appearance discussing the autopsy photos and his many trips to the national archives to view them. Photographer Joe O’Donnell makes a fascinating (if somewhat suspect) appearance, as his bonafides are not 100 percent in my opinion. Nevertheless, by talking at length about White House photographer Robert Knudsen and the autopsy photos, the focus turns more to Knudsen than it does O’Donnell here. Finally, Dr. Gary Aguilar, also later to appear on JFK REVISITED, makes a noteworthy appearance discussing the suspicious HSCA statement (later confirmed as dubious by both the HSCA’s Andy Purdy and Bob Blakey) that all the Bethesda witnesses disagreed with the Parkland doctors. The mid-1990’s ARRB file releases demonstrate that the HSCA lied and that the Bethesda witnesses, by and large, agreed with the Parkland doctors and nurses about the location of the wounds. Two interesting HSCA-era video clips of Blakey are included for contrast.

Then, it happens- right when one is inclined to grade this episode as the best in the lot, the final 20 minutes of the program, awful crud about John Liggett and his very dubious connections to the case (including what looks like a bad photoshopped photo of Liggett with Ruby!), comes along to torpedo any notion of such a grade. One can argue that this is THE worst segment on the entire TMWKK series and I would not argue the point. From Wikipedia: “Malcolm Liggett, a retired economics professor, labor economist at the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, and employee of the Office for Wage and Price Stability in the Executive Office of the President from 1975 to 1981, sued A&E regarding the episode "The Smoking Guns," which claimed Liggett was involved in a conspiracy to kill Kennedy. Liggett and A&E reached a settlement, which required that a letter by Liggett be read on the show History Center.”

PART EIGHT- THE LOVE AFFAIR (2003):

The Judyth Baker “story” for the full program. Grade: Would rather not say. Next…

 

PART NINE- THE GUILTY MEN (2003):

When this episode first came out, I would have probably given it between a B and an A. Now, I give it a grade of C-minus to F. Its only redeeming features are the true tidbits about LBJ in spite of the fact that there is (no longer, if there ever was) no evidence that LBJ did it. Author Joan Mellen and her book Faustian Bargains went a long way toward debunking this whole notion for me.

This was the infamous episode that sunk them all and caused so much controversy. Again, from Wikipedia: “[This episode] was based substantially on the book Blood, Money & Power: How L.B.J. Killed J.F.K. by Barr McClellan. The book and the episode directly implicates  (LBJ) – who was the Vice President at the time of the assassination – and its airing in 2003 created an outcry among Johnson's surviving associates, including Johnson's widow, Lady Bird Johnson, former LBJ aides Bill Moyers and Jack Valenti (longtime president of the Motion Picture Association of America), as well as U.S. Presidents Gerald Ford– who was the last-living (at the time of the outcry) Warren Commission member – and Jimmy Carter. These Johnson supporters lodged complaints of libel with the History Channel, and subsequently threatened legal action against Arts & Entertainment Company, owner of the History Channel. The History Channel responded by assembling a panel of three historians, Robert Dallek, Stanley Kutler, and Thomas Sugrue. On a program aired April 7, 2004, titled "The Guilty Man: A Historical Review," the panel agreed that the documentary was not credible and should not have aired. The History Channel issued a statement saying, in part, "The History Channel recognizes that 'The Guilty Men' failed to offer viewers context and perspective and fell short of the high standards that the network sets for itself. The History Channel apologized to its viewers and to Mrs. Johnson and her family for airing the show." 

Taking all of this into consideration, unlike part eight, I can still actually watch this one and find some value in it. Researcher Ed Tatro does a masterful job of being the anti-Robert Caro, so to speak, and catalogues all of Johnson’s malfeasance, although none of what he speaks of equates to guilt in the Kennedy assassination. The late Madeleine Brown, the late Dr. Charles Crenshaw (about the LBJ call to Parkland), Phyllis Bartlett (corroborating the LBJ call to Parkland) and Greg Burnham have interesting things to say.

That said, I feel sorry for Walt Brown: he really stuck his neck out about the Mac Wallace fingerprints that have since been debunked (not his prints and he was not even in Texas at the time) and I’ll bet he regrets saying it is a “slam dunk” that Wallace was involved now. The late Nathan Darby appears and offers his now-debunked opinion that the prints are Wallace’s (they are not).

So, there you have it: warts and all (and, yes- some big warts at times), TMWKK is still a valuable and indispensable addition to your collection.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Vince Palamara

[Joe Bauer]

Oliver Stone's 1993 film "JFK" and Nigel Turner's TMWKK series were the primary triggers of my later life obsession about the JFK event.

So many thoughts on the Turner pieces. 

Too many to share except in spurts if the thread stays in play.

Generally agree with your grading reviews of the individual episodes but with many differing takes as well.

But who am I to even comment on such?

Having no film/documentary education background at all.

And many of our most highly regarded JFK researchers here on the forum hate Turner's TMWKK effort.

They trash it's structure, content, overly dramatic music scoring, etc. Worse than no integrity.

However, for better or worse ... it's out there. 

It's been viewed by millions - educated, informed and not.

Obviously there is something compelling enough in it's presentation to draw in that many viewers. I believe the high emotion sharing of witnesses is a big part of this.

There is so much presented in TMWKK series ( much of which contradicts ) that it would be easy to dismiss the entire piece as simply too scattered.

Yet, imo...that is common sense illogical, unreasonable and even irresponsible.

Yes, there are 1,000 smoke cloud stories depicted and discussed.

Not all of them with real fire underneath.

However, enough are that they should be given their true truth value consideration.

The series gives us much background information about so many peripheral characters and their testimonials that we would have never even known about otherwise.

Heck, even Vince's work was given much more exposure from his inclusion in the series.

Will post more but wanted to get one nagging question out of the way here with my first response post.

Colonel Dan Marvin.

Was his highly emotional shared story a figment of a damaged and delusional mental illness imagination? Perhaps brought on by a serious case of PTSD or guilt over some of the brutal things he had to do in his military career duties?

If he made up his story, it was a doozie with many date and name details and his high emotion performance in sharing it was worthy of professional actor dramatic acting cudo's imo. 

What is the final assessment of Marvin? An emotionally broken person who creates false reality memories to cope with his trauma?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Vince Palamara]

9 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Oliver Stone's 1993 film "JFK" and Nigel Turner's TMWKK series were the primary triggers of my later life obsession about the JFK event.

So many thoughts on the Turner pieces. 

Too many to share except in spurts if the thread stays in play.

Generally agree with your grading reviews of the individual episodes but with many differing takes as well.

But who am I to even comment on such?

Having no film/documentary education background at all.

And many of our most highly regarded JFK researchers here on the forum hate Turner's TMWKK effort.

They trash it's structure, content, overly dramatic music scoring, etc. Worse than no integrity.

However, for better or worse ... it's out there. 

It's been viewed by millions - educated, informed and not.

Obviously there is something compelling enough in it's presentation to draw in that many viewers. I believe the high emotion sharing of witnesses is a big part of this.

There is so much presented in TMWKK series ( much of which contradicts ) that it would be easy to dismiss the entire piece as simply too scattered.

Yet, imo...that is common sense illogical, unreasonable and even irresponsible.

Yes, there are 1,000 smoke cloud stories depicted and discussed.

Not all of them with real fire underneath.

However, enough are that they should be given their true truth value consideration.

The series gives us much background information about so many peripheral characters and their testimonials that we would have never even known about otherwise.

Heck, even Vince's work was given much more exposure from his inclusion in the series.

Will post more but wanted to get one nagging question out of the way here with my first response post.

Colonel Dan Marvin.

Was his highly emotional shared story a figment of a damaged and delusional mental illness imagination? Perhaps brought on by a serious case of PTSD or guilt over some of the brutal things he had to do in his military career duties?

If he made up his story, it was a doozie with many date and name details and his high emotion performance in sharing it was worthy of professional actor dramatic acting cudo's imo. 

What is the final assessment of Marvin? An emotionally broken person who creates false reality memories to cope with his trauma?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks, Joe! Well, I don't know about on here, but TMWKK has many fans and, like you said, it has been seen by millions and is quite popular on You Tube. Yes, as I note, it is definitely flawed, but the good definitely outweighs the bad overall.

Re: Marvin---I don't know what to make of his rationale behind that. Bottom line- Vanek debunked his claim and there is no evidence for it.

[Joe Bauer]

22 minutes ago, Vince Palamara said:

Re: Marvin---I don't know what to make of his rationale behind that. Bottom line- Vanek debunked his claim and there is no evidence for it.

Like too much of the JFK event background story world.

Suspiciously strange.

I have not seen any Marvin discrediting pieces that even half-way factually explain his alleged made up story and his motive for putting it and himself out there for the entire world to see.

I wonder if Marvin's grand kids ( who he said meant everything to him ) now think he was not right mentally after reading reports that his TMWKK story was false and made up?

Edited August 28, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Vince Palamara]

35 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Like too much of the JFK event background story world.

Suspiciously strange.

I have not seen any Marvin discrediting pieces that even half-way factually explain his alleged made up story and his motive for putting it and himself out there for the entire world to see.

I wonder if Marvin's grand kids ( who he said meant everything to him ) now think he was not right mentally after reading reports that his TMWKK story was false and made up?

With Marvin dead, one would probably never get to the bottom of his motivation. Perhaps he was looking for his "moment in the sun", so to speak.

I am very skeptical of Beverly Oliver as the Babushka Lady, but she definitely was a Colony Club dancer with the right connections to have known Ruby and so forth. Also- I am amazed no one has come forward to say "I am the Babushka lady" or "my mom was the Babushka lady." One would think she risks a lot but putting herself out there as someone she was not, yet I have seen some major debunking videos and so forth.

Image 19 from Negative Strip 32: Downtown of the front entrance to the Colony Club – Works – eMuseum (jfk.org)

 

[Joe Bauer]

Vince...it's absolutely common sense to consider there must have been hundreds of people in Dallas and all areas of the U.S. that knew something intriguing about the main characters involved or other things they witnessed or heard regards the JFK event that never came forward to report or share what they knew.

From day one there was real fear surrounding knowing or seeing or hearing anything related to every aspect of the events and the main identified persons involved. It was totally rational to have that fear.

So many people who did come forward went through scrutinizing hell including secret agency, police and press hounding to the point that many eventually said if they had the opportunity to go back they would never had said a word about what they knew.

And people do keep secrets to their dying breaths. Life and death or reputation damaging secrets especially. I know first hand of this reality.

I could easily see someone who saw or heard or knew something earth shaking and  contradicting of the official WC Oswald acting alone, lone gunman line and the Jack Ruby just went whacky line keeping what they knew even from their closest family. For their personal safety protection as much as their own.

Beverly Oliver was only 16 in 1963!

I don't think Beverly Oliver stripped. I know she sang. She hung around the strip tease girls. Seemed to like that type of wild, naughty nightlife energy. Sexy music, turned on guys. Older men with money and even cops!

Maybe she got to drink beer.

Sitting with a much older and animal wild stripper reputation Jada herself!

More exciting than hanging with "boys" who couldn't even drive for sure.

She got to sing! With an audience! Next best thing to visiting Hollywood itself!

She looked older than she was. Big boned, kind of tall. Beautiful face though...and blond. Easy fun nature. Liked to smile and laugh...and again...sing.

I sense she made herself available to older men. To what degree I wouldn't know.

Beverly became religious in her later adult life. Good for her.

I've seen some video of her not too many years ago talking about her church ministry life and activities. She's still singing! She did a wonderful "Amazing Grace" rendition in this video.

I thought she was physically beautiful her whole life. I loved her big blond super extrovert happy energy. 

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Michael Davidson]

Starts well and gives a decent overview of the possible conspiracy but Gordon Arnold , Ed Hoffman , Gary Mack and Jack Whites Badgeman and most dissappointingly Christian David tend to sink  it as a serious documentary . Mind you Steve Rievele may not have been too far off when you consider Bill Harveys travels

[Joe Bauer]

Too bad Nigel Turner didn't get the Bill Harvey widow interview in one of his segments.

Wow!

The woman recounts her and her husband's hatred of JFK, Jackie and RFK.

To a degree that is shocking.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Derek Thibeault]

When I first saw it, I loved it. It was in connection with me reading Henry Hurt's Reasonable Doubt. The first series scared the heck out of me. The Badge Man. I forgot all about Joseph Milteer. I have seen it since including the later ones, and it's obviously flawed partly because new information was discovered after, but I give Turner a lot of credit, that was an ambitious series and groundbreaking before Stone's film. So I don't have a ton of info on Ms. Baker and I hated that episode, but is she completely a fraud? Did she know Oswald at all? If she is a fraud it's people like her mucking up the waters.

[Chuck Schwartz]

I do believe Joseph Milteer was a part of the right wing conservative group of people that were responsible for the murders of JFK , RFK and MLK, and probably Fred Hampton and Malcolm X.

[Guest]

On 8/29/2022 at 4:16 PM, Derek Thibeault said:

When I first saw it, I loved it. It was in connection with me reading Henry Hurt's Reasonable Doubt. The first series scared the heck out of me. The Badge Man. I forgot all about Joseph Milteer. I have seen it since including the later ones, and it's obviously flawed partly because new information was discovered after, but I give Turner a lot of credit, that was an ambitious series and groundbreaking before Stone's film. So I don't have a ton of info on Ms. Baker and I hated that episode, but is she completely a fraud? Did she know Oswald at all? If she is a fraud it's people like her mucking up the waters.

The LHO Museum (mini-museum....) in Haarlem is no longer there (don't know when it closed).

But.... "In a lengthy email titled “My boring life,” Baker writes of how she “broke up a witch’s coven and uncovered its head warlock” and sent police to rescue a “crippled virgin from their midst.” She also “designed Norwegian sweaters for a factory in Stavanger, found a Viking ship site there, and a Norwegian stone ship,” and “painted portraits of racehorses for millionaires and advised surgeons in New York hospitals how to stop abdominal adhesions from forming.”

From :  https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2011/10/17/lee_harvey_oswalds_lover_tries_to_clear_his_name.html

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Derek Thibeault]

"Uncovered it's head warlock" - I let out a laugh on that. I know she has been dubious, but why did Turner waste an episode on her? She goes to conventions and tries to be part of the witness community.

[Michael Griffith]

I agree with about 95% of your take on TMWKK. TMWKK was a major step forward in reaching a large audience with suppressed/ignored facts about JFK's death. It had a major influence on me and further motivated me to keep researching the case.

[Joe Bauer]

2 hours ago, Derek Thibeault said:

"Uncovered it's head warlock" - I let out a laugh on that. I know she has been dubious, but why did Turner waste an episode on her? She goes to conventions and tries to be part of the witness community.

As crazy as many label Judyth Vary Baker to be...I'm sorry, but imo there is enough in her New Orleans residency recounting to not totally dismiss several elements of her Lee Oswald knowing and maybe even sexual interaction story.

Baker was in New Orleans at the exact same time as Lee.

Lee often did go to the post office where she says she first saw him. Lee was always writing letters and receiving them as well and always through P.O. boxes.

Lee did look clean cut as she described upon her first seeing him.

Baker was in some way involved with Tulane University and cancer research and very easily could have met Alton Oschner if even for a few seconds long introduction. She did know or at least knew of Dr. Mary Sherman.

David Ferry was truly involved in cancer research himself. He ran a rat lab right out of his funky apartment. Did Baker actually visit there? Could her description of it's layout and interior and even location be more detailed than anything previously published?

Baker just happened to be hired by the Reily Coffee company on the same day as Lee Oswald? True or not? Just coincidence? Reily's being a known cover job providing entity for you know who. Baker wondered why she was given a secretarial position there when she had absolutely no experience with those kinds of duties.

Same with Oswald cleaning and greasing coffee grinding machines.

Baker and Oswald both took buses everywhere. Baker lived on the same bus line and took the same bus to and from Reily's daily as Oswald did? And at the same times?

In the least, she and Lee were mere feet from each other on those months of bus rides and bus stop waiting.

Oswald abused his duties at Reilys. Cleaning mechanical coffee grinding machines was not his thing. He would stay out at lunch and hang out at the next door parking garage reading gun magazines.

His supervisor at Reily's said he acted like he could care less about his job there.

Oswald is eventually fired because of his job negligence but also reportedly partly because of his Pro-Cuba leaflet passing downtown. Which by the way he was paid to do.

Judyth Baker is fired from her position at Reilys also just days later?

She says because of her close association with Lee.

Many other things JVB has recounted regards LHO and New Orleans cannot be totally debunked as false or mere coincidence imo.

Baker was a brilliant high school student. No debate there. Her Florida hometown newspaper articles detailed her accomplishments at that time.

Baker never once lied or exaggerated anything about her fiance while she was living in New Orleans. She has written respectfully of him always.

Judyth never claimed any other dalliances with anyone except LHO.

She wasn't a loose sex starved flirt. She was intellectually driven.  She claims only two sexual relationships in her young life. That's not many.

Off topic I know. However, the TMWKK piece on JVB may sound "out there" to many and not worthy of filming and showing. She is obviously eccentric and has stated many questionable things. I have encountered many people in my life like her. Eccentric and outspoken but underneath those quirks...extremely intelligent. Some call this off-centered behavior bohemian.

E. Howard Hunt made his tape recorded near death JFK "Big Event" confessional years after the TMWKK series came out.

Yet in this he affirms some aspects of TMWKK episode of "The Guilty Men " in placing LBJ at the head of the conspiracy in partnership with Cord Meyer.

Again, just more smoke to add to the fire search truth.

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Derek Thibeault]

23 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

As crazy as many label Judyth Vary Baker to be...I'm sorry, but imo there is enough in her New Orleans residency recounting to not totally dismiss several elements of her Lee Oswald knowing and maybe even sexual interaction story.

Baker was in New Orleans at the exact same time as Lee.

Lee often did go to the post office where she says she first saw him. Lee was always writing letters and receiving them as well and always through P.O. boxes.

Lee did look clean cut as she described upon her first seeing him.

Baker was in some way involved with Tulane University and cancer research and very easily could have met Alton Oschner if even for a few seconds long introduction. She did know or at least knew of Dr. Mary Sherman.

David Ferry was truly involved in cancer research himself. He ran a rat lab right out of his funky apartment. Did Baker actually visit there? Could her description of it's layout and interior and even location be more detailed than anything previously published?

Baker just happened to be hired by the Reily Coffee company on the same day as Lee Oswald? True or not? Just coincidence? Reily's being a known cover job providing entity for you know who. Baker wondered why she was given a secretarial position there when she had absolutely no experience with those kinds of duties.

Same with Oswald cleaning and greasing coffee grinding machines.

Baker and Oswald both took buses everywhere. Baker lived on the same bus line and took the same bus to and from Reily's daily as Oswald did? And at the same times?

In the least, she and Lee were mere feet from each other on those months of bus rides and bus stop waiting.

Oswald abused his duties at Reilys. Cleaning mechanical coffee grinding machines was not his thing. He would stay out at lunch and hang out at the next door parking garage reading gun magazines.

His supervisor at Reily's said he acted like he could care less about his job there.

Oswald is eventually fired because of his job negligence but also reportedly partly because of his Pro-Cuba leaflet passing downtown. Which by the way he was paid to do.

Judyth Baker is fired from her position at Reilys also just days later?

She says because of her close association with Lee.

Many other things JVB has recounted regards LHO and New Orleans cannot be totally debunked as false or mere coincidence imo.

Baker was a brilliant high school student. No debate there. Her Florida hometown newspaper articles detailed her accomplishments at that time.

Baker never once lied or exaggerated anything about her fiance while she was living in New Orleans. She has written respectfully of him always.

Judyth never claimed any other dalliances with anyone except LHO.

She wasn't a loose sex starved flirt. She was intellectually driven.  She claims only two sexual relationships in her young life. That's not many.

Off topic I know. However, the TMWKK piece on JVB may sound "out there" to many and not worthy of filming and showing. She is obviously eccentric and has stated many questionable things. I have encountered many people in my life like her. Eccentric and outspoken but underneath those quirks...extremely intelligent. Some call this off-centered behavior bohemian.

E. Howard Hunt made his tape recorded near death JFK "Big Event" confessional years after the TMWKK series came out.

Yet in this he affirms some aspects of TMWKK episode of "The Guilty Men " in placing LBJ at the head of the conspiracy in partnership with Cord Meyer.

Again, just more smoke to add to the fire search truth.

 

When people say she has been debunked, in what way? I have heard all the things you mentioned, so that's why I ask. He is she trying to make things messier, and she just knew him a bit. Trying to muddy the waters. Or were they more involved? Probably never know.