Did the limo slow, or didn't it?

[Henry Frost]

8 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

I always felt sick at Kellerman's non-action during the shooting which he described as a "flurry" of shots raining in. He knew JFK had been hit. Shouldn't he have leaped over the bar behind him to use his body to shield JFK from any more carnage?

Absolutely agree with that.  Kellerman was the closest SA to JFK who wasn't doing anything.  Compare that to SA Tim McCarthy during the Reagan assassination attempt.  He didn't duck or remain idle, he turned to face the shooter and took a bullet for the President:

I think the training of the Secret Service must have gone up a few thousand percent after JFK.

[Joe Bauer]

Greer's WC testimony: 

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you tell us just what occurred as you were proceeding down Elm Street at that time?
Mr. GREER. Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And I didn't--it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall.

 

>>>>>  Then I realized there was something wrong. I tramped on the accelerator, and at the same time Mr. Kellerman said to me, "Get out of here fast." And I cannot remember even the other shots or noises that was. I cannot quite remember any more.

>>>>>  I did not see anything happen behind me any more  <<<<<

because I was occupied with getting away. <<<<<

 

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots, or how many noises have you just described that you heard?
Mr. GREER. I know there was three that I heard--three. But I cannot remember any more than probably three. I know there was three anyway that I heard.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an independent recollection at this moment of having heard three shots at that time?
Mr. GREER. I knew that after I heard the second one, that is when I looked over my shoulder, and I was conscious that there was something wrong, because that is when I saw Governor Connally. And when I turned around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one, right immediately after.
Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your ability to recollect and estimate, how much time elapsed from the first noise which you have described as being similar to the backfire of a motor vehicle until you heard the second noise?

Mr. GREER. It seems a matter of seconds, I really couldn't say. Three or four seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. How much time elapsed, to the best of your ability to estimate and recollect, between the time of the second noise and the time of the third noise?
Mr. GREER. The last two seemed to be just simultaneously, one behind the other, but I don't recollect just how much, how many seconds were between the two. I couldn't really say.
Mr. SPECTER. Describe as best you can the types of sound of the second report, as distinguished from the first noise which you said was similar to a motorcycle backfire?
Mr. GREER. The second one didn't sound any different much than the first one but I kind of got, by turning around, I don't know whether I got a little concussion of it, maybe when it hit something or not, I may have gotten a little concussion that made me think there was something different to it. But so far as the noise is concerned, I haven't got any memory of any difference in them at all.
Mr. SPECTER. Describe as best you can the sound of the third noise.
Mr. GREER. Just, to me it was similar, to the first two. They all sounded practically the same to me.
Mr. SPECTER. You testified that at the second noise you glanced over your shoulder.
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Which shoulder did you glance over?
Mr. GREER. Right shoulder.
Mr. SPECTER. And describe or indicate how far you turned your head to the right at that time?
Mr. GREER. Just so that my eyes over, caught the Governor, I could see, I couldn't see the President. I just could see the Governor. I made a quick glance and back again.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the movement of your head just then approximately the same?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. As the time?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. You just indicated the turn of your head slightly to the right.
Mr. GREER. My eyes slightly more than my head. My eyes went more than my head around. I had vision real quick of it.
Mr. SPECTER. Exactly where was Governor Connally when you first caught him out of the corner of your eye?
Mr. GREER. He was--he seemed to be falling a little bit toward Mrs. Connally, to the left. He started to go over a little bit to the left.
Mr. SPECTER. And how far did you catch his movement during the time you were able to observe him?
Mr. GREER. Just a second. He probably hadn't gotten his shoulder, he hadn't fell down or anything. He probably was in a position such as I am now.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall to the rear or to the side or how?
Mr. GREER. In my opinion, he fell toward Mrs. Connally which would be to his left or to his side.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall then on his left shoulder and arm or in some other way?
Mr. GREER. He appeared to me to be falling on his left shoulder when I glanced. He had only started to move that way whenever he--when I saw him.
 

 

>>>>> Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to see anything of President Kennedy as you glanced to the rear?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't see anything of the President, I didn't look, I wasn't far enough around to see the President. <<<<<

 

Mr. SPECTER. When you started that glance, are you able to recollect whether you started to glance before, exactly simultaneously with or after that second shot?
Mr. GREER. It was almost simultaneously that he had--something had hit, you know, when I had seen him. It seemed like in the same second almost that something had hit, you know, whenever I turned around. I saw him start to fall.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you step on the accelerator before, simultaneously or after Mr. Kellerman instructed you to accelerate?
Mr. GREER. It was about simultaneously.
Mr. SPECTER. So that it was your reaction to accelerate prior to the time--
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. You had gotten that instruction?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was my reaction that caused me to accelerate.

>>>>> Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the same time or after the third shot?
Mr. GREER. I couldn't really say.

Just as soon as I turned my head back from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was a matter of my reflexes to the accelerator.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it at about that time that you heard the third shot?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; just as soon as I turned my head. <<<<<

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the speed of the car at the time of the first, second, or third shots?
Mr. GREER. I would estimate my speed was between 12 and 15 miles per hour.
Mr. SPECTER. At the time all of the shots occurred?
Mr. GREER. At the time the shots occurred.
Mr. SPECTER. Now what, if anything, was Mr. Kellerman doing at the time of the first shot?
Mr. GREER. I couldn't really speak for where he was watching, what part of the street or the buildings or what he was watching at that time. I don't really know.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what Mr. Kellerman was doing at the time of the second shot?
Mr. GREER. He was sitting there in the front. No, sir; I don't know what his action was then. I was watching the overpass, I wasn't looking his way.
Mr. SPECTER. When you were watching the overpass at that time, did you observe anything on the overpass?
Mr. GREER. Not that I can remember now.

 

The Zapruder film shows Greer looking straight back at JFK just as his head explodes.

IMO no one would ever forget seeing this just feet away.

Selective amnesia?

The Z film shows the limo slowing almost to a stop as Greer is looking back at JFK. Greer never mentions this noticeable slowdown and Specter doesn't ask.

 

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Gil Jesus]

21 hours ago, Rich Taylor said:

The general consensus is that the Limo stayed at the same speed through the gunfire until just after the headshot..even with eyewitnesses stating they saw it slow down or come to a complete stop.  Viewing both the Zapruder film and the nix film over the years gives two vantage points to observe it.  It would appear to me that that the limo slowed for a few moments right as JFK takes the fatal blow.  The queen mary comes into tyhe frame to within a few feet of the bumper quite quickly and the motorcycle riders on the left quickly pass the rear of the car when they were farther back before  and then greer hits the gas.  This can be noticed from both films. I have not seen this covered before and if it has been, I have not seen anyone discussing this point. 

Judge for yourself:

https://gil-jesus.com/the-agents-in-the-limo/

 

[Joe Bauer]

The pics above show it's right there in front of us.

In frame 304 you can clearly see Greer's head turned fully back behind him and looking directly at JFK.

Then at 313, when JFK's head explodes, Greer's head is "still' turned backwards toward JFK.

It isn't hard to see this.

I don't see any worthy debatable point to make and defend otherwise.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Vince Palamara]

I document 72 witnesses who stated that the limo slowed or stopped. Some use this tally (as well as my old tally of 59 witnesses) to "prove" that the limo stopped and the Z film was altered. I believe the limo slowed down but did not actually come to a full and complete stop (a rolling stop would be the proper way to describe this slow down). Stopped? "almost"-

 

[Paul Cummings]

8 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Greer's first head turn around is kind of a half or slightly more one. Glancing over his right shoulder at the back seat.

Greer's second head turn around however is a full 180 degree one. And he stays looking at JFK right as his head explodes. It was during this second turn around that he lets up on the accelerator which slows the limo to almost a stop.

Greer then jerks his head back frontward and hits the gas hard and ...vrooommm!

I'll have to go back to Greer's WC testimony but I believe he states a different story regards his doing a full 180 degree turn around just before the head shot and his actually seeing it happen.

Reading Greer's WC testimony I got the sense he was blatantly covering his a$$ by stating a version of his actions which would negate his negligently slowing the limo almost to a stop just before JFK was hit in the head.

Kellerman also looks straight back at JFK just before Greer.

I always felt sick at Kellerman's non-action during the shooting which he described as a "flurry" of shots raining in. He knew JFK had been hit. Shouldn't he have leaped over the bar behind him to use his body to shield JFK from any more carnage?

Life and limb risking on his part for sure.

Yet Clint Hill did something even more life and limb risky in his mad dash and leap onto the back of the limo while it was taking off at high speed.

Hill could have easily fallen and been run over by the 5 ton Queen Mary to a certain gruesome and crushing death.

I believe Greer told the Warren Commission he didn't notice the bullet going through the winshield. Don't recall who asked the question but when Greer answered he did not see or hear the bullet going through the winshield. He was asked the same question after answering. I think it's safe to say the person on the committee wasn't buying what Greer was selling.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Paul Cummings

[Pamela Brown]

23 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Pamela I agree 100%.

I've watched the Z film 500 times. Different speeds. You name it.

I have not been able to consider but one conclusion.

Greer turns his head 180 degrees backwards and looks right at JFK in Jackie's arms just as JFK is hit in the head. A split-split second later he turns back and floors the limo.

Pamela you are right. No car driver turns their upper body 180 degrees around, facing fully backwards and keeps their foot on the gas without letting it up.

When Greer turned to look at JFK he let up on the gas so much the limo almost stopped completely.

 

 

Exactly. And he waits to gun the engine until after Z313...

[David Lifton]

I've said this before, and its worth saying again: yes, the imo stopped.

I interviewed the Newmans in 1971 (or 1972(.

But the best evidence  can be found in the Friday evening edition of the Dallas Times Herald,  O ne or more of the cycle escort said it stopped; and as researcher Tyler Newcomb pointed out years ago, I believe you can actually see one of the DPD cyclists with his foot down and firmly on the pavement. I always thought that Vince Palamara's tabulation of "car stop" witnesses was excellent.  DSL

[Chris Bristow]

Chaney's  claim that he immediately drove forward after the headshot and informed Curry of the situation is corroborated by Hargis, Curry and both agents in in the backseat of Curry's car. In the Nix film however Chaney never rides forward.

I assume if you take out the limo stop Chaney's ride forward has to come out too as there will be no time for him to ride forward, stop at Chief Curry's car, and have a quick conversation.

The fact there are five witnesses to Chaney's ride forward yet it does not appear in the Nix film, supports the notion that the limo stop was removed.

[Mark Ulrik]

1 hour ago, Chris Bristow said:

Chaney's  claim that he immediately drove forward after the headshot and informed Curry of the situation is corroborated by Hargis, Curry and both agents in in the backseat of Curry's car. In the Nix film however Chaney never rides forward.

I assume if you take out the limo stop Chaney's ride forward has to come out too as there will be no time for him to ride forward, stop at Chief Curry's car, and have a quick conversation.

The fact there are five witnesses to Chaney's ride forward yet it does not appear in the Nix film, supports the notion that the limo stop was removed.

You are probably aware of this, but Curry later told researchers that Chaney caught up with them about the time they reached the on-ramp to Stemmons. There's also the McIntyre photo where two motorcycles (one of them Chaney's) can be seen in the background coming through the underpass in hot pursuit. Some very illuminating discussions can be found in threads from 2010.

[Mark Ulrik]

5 hours ago, David Lifton said:

I've said this before, and its worth saying again: yes, the imo stopped.

I interviewed the Newmans in 1971 (or 1972(.

But the best evidence  can be found in the Friday evening edition of the Dallas Times Herald,  O ne or more of the cycle escort said it stopped; and as researcher Tyler Newcomb pointed out years ago, I believe you can actually see one of the DPD cyclists with his foot down and firmly on the pavement. I always thought that Vince Palamara's tabulation of "car stop" witnesses was excellent.  DSL

Some of them were "car slowdown" witnesses, adamant that the limo didn't stop, so there's also that to take into consideration. The best evidence is, however, the films.

[Bill Brown]

16 hours ago, Paul Cummings said:

I believe Greer told the Warren Commission he didn't notice the bullet going through the winshield. Don't recall who asked the question but when Greer answered he did not see or hear the bullet going through the winshield. He was asked the same question after answering. I think it's safe to say the person on the committee wasn't buying what Greer was selling.

 

No bullet passed through the windshield.

 

Robert Frazier testified that the windshield was actually two sheets of glass molded together to form one and that only the inner portion was damaged.  The outer portion had no damage at all.  There was no hole in the windshield; only a bit of damage (from a fragment, most likely) to the inner portion.

 

[Joe Bauer]

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

 

No bullet passed through the windshield.

 

Robert Frazier testified that the windshield was actually two sheets of glass molded together to form one and that only the inner portion was damaged.  The outer portion had no damage at all.  There was no hole in the windshield; only a bit of damage (from a fragment, most likely) to the inner portion.

 

Bill, any thoughts on the upper inner windshield frame hole?

Which looks like it could have been made by a bullet?

Same hole width. 

Something made that "indentation" with enough velocity force that it lifted and twisted the surrounding metal.

Metal that was rock hard steel.

Both Kellerman and Greer and others who were in or around the limo almost daily, stated they could "not" recall seeing that big ugly hole before 11,22,1963.

I have always proposed that if my inner upper windshield frame developed a hole that big, deep and ugly I would have noticed it right away. 

Could the "flurry" of shots coming into the interior of the Limo as Kellerman described have included one that came in from a slightly different angle than the head shot to JFK and caused the steel frame damage? I believe so.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Bill Brown]

41 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Bill, any thoughts on the upper inner windshield frame hole?

Which looks like it could have been made by a bullet?

Same hole width. 

Something made that "indentation" with enough velocity force that it lifted and twisted the surrounding metal.

Metal that was rock hard steel.

Both Kellerman and Greer and others who were in or around the limo almost daily, stated they could "not" recall seeing that big ugly hole before 11,22,1963.

I have always proposed that if my inner upper windshield frame developed a hole that big, deep and ugly I would have noticed it right away. 

Could the "flurry" of shots coming into the interior of the Limo as Kellerman described have included one that came in from a slightly different angle than the head shot to JFK and caused the steel frame damage? I believe so.

 

I don't think there's any question that the dent (dent, not hole) occurred during the assassination.  Either from a bullet fragment or bone fragment (bullet fragment, in my opinion).  Two larger fragments were found on the floor of the limo (CE-567 and CE-569).

 

Don't you believe that a bullet fragment could have caused that damage to the frame?  Must it be from a direct strike from a bullet?

 

As for Kellerman, he did not say a flurry of "shots" came into the interior of the limo.  He said a flurry of shells came into the car.  Later in his testimony, he did use the phrase "after the flurry of shots" when describing the happenings once the shooting was over.  There is a difference.  Just a week after the assassination he described only three shots.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Bill Brown

[Joe Bauer]

41 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

 

I don't think there's any question that the dent (dent, not hole) occurred during the assassination.  Either from a bullet fragment or bone fragment (bullet fragment, in my opinion).  Two larger fragments were found on the floor of the limo (CE-567 and CE-569).

 

Don't you believe that a bullet fragment could have caused that damage to the frame?  Must it be from a direct strike from a bullet?

 

As for Kellerman, he did not say a flurry of "shots" came into the interior of the limo.  He said a flurry of shells came into the car.  Later in his testimony, he did use the phrase "after the flurry of shots" when describing the happenings once the shooting was over.  There is a difference.  Just a week after the assassination he described only three shots.

Other shots from "silenced" weapons could easily be a possibility.

They had weapons like that at that time.

Bone fragment? Penetrating and lifting up and bending solid steel? No.

Bullet fragment?

Not from the JFK/Connelly pristine bullet.

And the entrance angle of the inner windshield frame indentation does not line up with JFK's exploding skull.

Whatever came in to cause the windshield frame indentation came in from an angle further right than anything hitting JFK's skull ... AND it came in higher than JFK's skull and not from an upward angle as it would have if it was from a bullet fragment from the head wound.

The Kellerman "flurry" statement debate is silly.

Slight differences from each take.