PrayerPerson ???

[Cory Santos]

21 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

I have to confess --- I wrote that caption myself. The managing editor of The Tampa Times telephoned me at 2:35 PM EDT on 11/22/63 and asked me if I would write them an accurate caption for the Altgens photo that they said was going to adorn the front page of their 11/22 second edition. So, I agreed to help out my Tampa newspaper pals and write up the caption. (Not bad for a kid who wasn't even 2 years old yet, huh?) 😁

I once saw a magazine at the grocery store of this picture saying Castro was in Dealey and it had a laughing picture of Castro cropped onto Lovelady/Oswald lookalike’s body.

[Andrej Stancak]

It may sound like bringing wood to a forest, however, let me repeat some facts that explain the reason why some people think that the possibility of Lee Oswald needs to be explored.

1. It has been established by process of elimination early on in the original Prayer Man thread and on ROKC that none of the Depository employees but Oswald could fit the figure standing at the western wall of Depository doorway. This elimination process was based on witness testimonies and known locations of all Depository employees.  At the same time, none of the people in the doorway admitted that anyone from the outside crowd would step up and join them in the doorway, not mentioning the top and back part of the doorway. 

2. While neither Darnell nor Wiegman film offers enough resolution and sharpness to identify Prayer Man according to his facial features, there are several distinct features which can be used to refute Lee Oswald as Prayer Man should that person be someone else. For instance, if Prayer Man had a distinct blonde hair or if he was of Afro-American descent, we would be able to refute the PM=Oswald hypothesis immediately. However, over the years no single feature in Prayer Man's figure has emerged to alow to refute Oswald as Prayer Man.

3. Here are the features which have been explored so far, each offering a match with Lee Oswald. To recall, each of them could with high probability go different way if Prayer Man was not Oswald.

- Prayer Man was a white Caucasian as was Lee Oswald, excluding 20% of Dallas population as candidates right away.

- Prayer Man was a man, excluding 51% of general population (or crowd in Dealey Plaza) as candidates.

- Prayer Man had a hairline with receding hair over the temple which is known as Type II male baldness pattern; Lee Oswald had the same pattern of male baldness. 25% of males show this type of baldness.

- Prayer Man's body height (5' 9 1/2'' - 5' 3'') was compatible with a man 5' 9'' which was Lee Oswald's body height. This body height was prevalent among males at the time with about 50% of males showing this body height.

- Prayer Man wore a worker type of shirt rolled up to his elbows with the front facing of the shirt being pulled out of trousers, and the neck wide open with a visible white T-shirt beneath. This was the way Lee Oswald wore shirts, and he was photographed like this on  Friday afternoon after he changed his maroon shirt CE151 for the darker CE150.

- If converted into grey scale, the shirt CE151 would give a very similar level of grey as his trousers. That would form almost a continuous colour of his whole garment from shirt to trousers, something we see when grey versions of shirt CE151 and his work trousers are aligned.

- As Prayer Man had to stand at one particular location in the doorway in Darnell, that location would prompt him to rest his left foot on the top landing and bear the weight of his body on his right foot and stretched right leg. The resulting posture would be comparable with the way Lee Oswald used to stand from his childhood until his adulthood. Interestingly, his own brother Robert showed this type of posture when photographed at Lee's funeral.

- Prayer Man also showed his arms flexed in elbow joints in front of his chest. Lee Oswald used to cross his forearms in front of his chest as well.

- The feature which may be decisive in the identification of Prayer Man are the dark spots on the front facing of Prayer Man's shirt. Those dark spots appear to match the dark spots seen on shirt CE151, howoever, more research is needed to be able to decide if the dark spots in CE151 and Prayer Man's shirt match.

4. Anyway, I hope it is clear to those who question the importance of Prayer Man's indentity why there are good reasons for investigating Prayer Man's identity. Obtaining high quality scans would be of great help and may shed more light on the problem. 

And the final question to those who ridicule the efforts of some of the Forum members: why does none of the Prayer Man's features  refute the possibility of Lee Oswald being Prayer Man? Add point (1), the elimination argument, and it is difficult to supress the thought that that person standing at the western wall might have been Lee Oswald.

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Andrej Stancak

[Sean Coleman]

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

It may sound like bringing wood to a forest, however, let me repeat some facts that explain the reason why some people think that the possibility of Lee Oswald needs to be explored.

1. It has been established by process of elimination early on in the original Prayer Man thread and on ROKC that none of the Depository employees but Oswald could fit the figure standing at the western wall of Depository doorway. This elimination process was based on witness testimonies and known locations of all Depository employees.  At the same time, none of the people in the doorway admitted that anyone from the outside crowd would step up and join them in the doorway, not mentioning the top and back part of the doorway. 

2. While neither Darnell nor Wiegman film offers enough resolution and sharpness to identify Prayer Man according to his facial features, there are several distinct features which can be used to refute Lee Oswald as Prayer Man should that person be someone else. For instance, if Prayer Man had a distinct blonde hair or if he was of Afro-American descent, we would be able to refute the PM=Oswald hypothesis immediately. However, over the years no single feature in Prayer Man's figure has emerged to alow to refute Oswald as Prayer Man.

3. Here are the features which have been explored so far, each offering a match with Lee Oswald. To recall, each of them could with high probability go different way if Prayer Man was not Oswald.

- Prayer Man was a white Caucasian as was Lee Oswald, excluding 20% of Dallas population as candidates right away.

- Prayer Man was a man, excluding 51% of general population (or crowd in Dealey Plaza) as candidates.

- Prayer Man had a hairline with receding hair over the temple which is known as Type II male baldness pattern; Lee Oswald had the same pattern of male baldness. 25% of males show this type of baldness.

- Prayer Man's body height (5' 9 1/2'' - 5' 3'') was compatible with a man 5' 9'' which was Lee Oswald's body height. This body height was prevalent among males at the time with about 50% of males showing this body height.

- Prayer Man wore a worker type of shirt rolled up to his elbows with the front facing of the shirt being pulled out of trousers, and the neck wide open with a visible white T-shirt beneath. This was the way Lee Oswald wore shirts, and he was photographed like this on  Friday afternoon after he changed his maroon shirt CE151 for the darker CE150.

- If converted into grey scale, the shirt CE151 would give a very similar level of grey as his trousers. That would form almost a continuous colour of his whole garment from shirt to trousers, something we see when grey versions of shirt CE151 and his work trousers are aligned.

- As Prayer Man had to stand at one particular location in the doorway in Darnell, that location would prompt him to rest his left foot on the top landing and bear the weight of his body on his right foot and stretched right leg. The resulting posture would be comparable with the way Lee Oswald used to stand from his childhood until his adulthood. Interestingly, his own brother Robert showed this type of posture when photographed at Lee's funeral.

- Prayer Man also showed his arms flexed in elbow joints in front of his chest. Lee Oswald used to cross his forearms in front of his chest as well.

- The feature which may be decisive in the identification of Prayer Man are the dark spots on the front facing of Prayer Man's shirt. Those dark spots appear to match the dark spots seen on shirt CE151, howoever, more research is needed to be able to decide if the dark spots in CE151 and Prayer Man's shirt match.

4. Anyway, I hope it is clear to those who question the importance of Prayer Man's indentity why there are good reasons for investigating Prayer Man's identity. Obtaining high quality scans would be of great help and may shed more light on the problem. 

And the final question to those who ridicule the efforts of some of the Forum members: why does none of the Prayer Man's features refutures refute the possibility of Lee Oswald being Prayer Man? Add point (1), the emilination argument, and it is difficult to supress the thought that that person standing at the western wall might have been Lee Oswald.

 

 

 

I hope It is LHO.

But what puzzles me is….after the imaginative creation of the ‘Oswald legend’, the sheepdipping, the guidance from dubious 3rd parties etc…. how/why was the designated patsy allowed to be seen in public? Shouldn’t he have been told to be totally out of sight? He can’t be the shooter if he’s on the front step. I’m not sure the organisers of the plot would have let this happen after so much nefarious hard work-which was to culminate in- LHO shooting JFK, from the 6th floor, with his ‘own’ rifle.

In a nutshell…he shouldn’t have been there.

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

But what puzzles me is….after the imaginative creation of the ‘Oswald legend’, the sheepdipping, the guidance from dubious 3rd parties etc…. how/why was the designated patsy allowed to be seen in public?

 

Sean,

You're assuming that the plotters meant for Oswald to be seen as an assassin.

From all the evidence I've seen, it appears to me that the plotters meant for Oswald to be seen as a ringleader or intermediary for an assassination team, and not necessarily a shooter.

The Mexico City trip is the key to understanding the plot. However, note that Oswald didn't really go to Mexico City... the whole story was faked by the CIA plotters.

David Josephs has shown how Oswald's bus trip was  bogus. There is (fake) evidence indicating that Oswald traveled to Mexico City (with his team, or part of it) by car. This evidence was covered up by the FBI to preserve the lone-nut narrative.

We know that the Oswald who went to the Cuban Consulate and met with Sylvia Duran was actually a short, blond, imposter. I contend that this person was a CIA agent. He had two missions: First, to fool Duran into believing he was Oswald and was there to get a Cuban Visa. Second, to fool American authorities later on into believing that KGB officer Nikolai Leonov was part of a plot involving Oswald's team. That's the reason the surveillance photo of supposed Oswald appears to be blond-haired Leonov.

The purpose of the phone calls between the Cuban and Russian consulates was to implicate Oswald and KGB assassinations chief Valeriy Kostikov. (One of the phone calls is what was supposed to alert the FBI that Oswald was involved.)

The CIA plotters never meant for the FBI to think it was Oswald in the Cuban Consulate. The FBI came to think that only because of the Mexican police's brutal interrogation of Sylvia Duran. The CIA's plan was for the FBI to think that the Russians and Cubans were conspiring with Oswald to kill Kennedy.

Incident to all this was the fake party at the Duran's house that Oswald and his guys attended. Then there was the red-haired negro who gave Oswald a $6500 up-front payment for the hit.

That's my working theory, which is close to others' theories. My theory doesn't have Oswald as a shooter, and so doesn't require him to be in a specific position during the shots.

 

After the shooting, the Johnson administration quickly decided to paint Oswald as a lone gunman. They moved his "outside with Shelley watching the P. Parade" alibi to a more comfortable "first floor" location. Then they fabricated the 2nd floor Baker/Oswald encounter to put him in a believable after-the-shooting position. This became problematic given the Vickie Adams testimony (i.e. she did not hear or see Oswald running down the steps right after the shooting). So they discredited her testimony by changing it (i.e. to a later time period) and by talking Shelley and Lovelady into corroborating the fake testimony.

 

[Chris Davidson]

On 9/20/2022 at 12:08 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Chris:

your new estimate of 5' 5'' (I am rounding to the next inch as we do not really have accuracy of tenths of inches; my estimates have accuracy of about 1/2'') should be wrong in my opinion, and your former estimate of 5' 3'' would be very close to my estimate of 5' 2 1/2'' for the height of plane crossing the top of Prayer man's head.

Please consider how a tall person 5' 5'' would look like when standing on the top landing. You can 1) subtract a value 9' 1/2'' (the height of head in a male of Fraziers' body height) from Frazier's body height because Prayer Man's head reached only to the shoulder level or lower aspect of his chin (should be the same levels), and you get a numeric estimate of 5' 2 1/2' (Frazier 6') ' or 5' 3'' (Frazier 6' 1/2''). 2) you can also compare appearances of two people of unequal heights standing on the same plane using an online tool, e.g. https://www.mrinitialman.com/OddsEnds/Sizes/compsizes.xhtml, and there may be even better tools out there. A person 5' 5'' would reach to about mouth level of a person 6' or 6' 1/2''. 3) I was able to verify my estimate by setting a body heights of two mannequins in Scketchup to 6' and 5' 2 1/2'' to verify my estimate. 4) you can have a feet metric scale with feet and inches as a vertically orientated tape measure, and get a picture of normal sized male, and scale him to 6' (or 6' 1/2'') and again in the way that the next image would reach the body height at the level of the first person's shoulder line, and read the height value for the shorter person.

Here is a comparison combining methods 3 and 4.

 

 

 

Andrej,

Since the heads/faces are blurry, I always thought it would be better to use actual photos of BWF/Oswald for the comparisons/models:

 

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

From all the evidence I've seen, it appears to me that the plotters meant for Oswald to be seen as a ringleader or intermediary for an assassination team, and not necessarily a shooter.

Sooooo... planting his rifle right near the window where shots were fired wasn't intended to implicate Oswald as the assassin? Right, sure. Got it.

[Ron Ege]

Sandy,

I'm guessing that you consider LHO to not have been a defector/turncoat/traitor.  In truth, IMHO, as a former marine and by the preponderance of everything we've learned about him, most likely an intelligence operative and perhaps even a FBi informant, he seemed to be a patriot,

After nearly sixty years, I believe that he may be ruled out as a "crazed lone assassin."

So, right - he was set up. 

The plotters did not have need to have him be on the sixth floor, in the "sniper's lair".

Besides there being no credible evidence that he was ever that "crazed lone assassin" he was eventually pictured to be, Oswald was not unintelligent.

LHO had to know that he was not capable of the shooting feat that is part of the official record - that which has never been exactly duplicated by the world's finest marksmen.

And would the plotters really have chosen LHO as their "lone assassin" - he, whose record as a USMC rifleman mostly indicated that his questionable ability pretty much implied that he was a former member of "the gang who couldn't shoot straight"?

As we are aware, one supposition has it, especially if we take into account, perhaps, young man naivete/over confidence (me thinks that he might have been a wee bit over his head, playing with the spy craft "big boys"), he was convinced to play a part in a "false flag operation".  Of course, with assurances that he would be shielded and not be, in any manner, implicated.

However, unsuspected by Oswald, the plotters had ensured that he would be connected to the assassination by virtue of all the "evidence" created by them alone and/or with LHO's innocent help over the years, that was eventually made part of his "legend" -

As you so aptly put forth, what was important was that LHO be quickly determined to be part of a Russian and/or Cuban conspiracy to assassinate the POTUS with the concomitant reaction of the government and the American people - demanding immediate retribution against the "commies".

Anyway, shortly subsequent to the shots, young Lee begins to understand - "Aw, crap - this "escapade" they told me about - didn't quite go as I thought.  I need to high-tail it to my contact and find out my next step."   

For the plotters, whatever it was - something had gone wrong.

For Lee and Tippit, everything, precipitously, started "going south".

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

59 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

From all the evidence I've seen, it appears to me that the plotters meant for Oswald to be seen as a ringleader or intermediary for an assassination team, and not necessarily a shooter.

 

59 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Sooooo... planting his rifle right near the window where shots were fired wasn't intended to implicate Oswald as the assassin? Right, sure. Got it.

 

Oswald didn't own a rifle.

 

[Ron Ege]

10 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Oswald didn't own a rifle.

 

 

1 hour ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Sooooo... planting his rifle right near the window where shots were fired wasn't intended to implicate Oswald as the assassin? Right, sure. Got it.

Jonathan,

I thought, reading Sandy's post, he proffered that the plotters may have been implicating specifically LHO, not as the shooter - but perhaps they had him playing another role - that of a "ringleader" or "intermediary".  Either role or any other associated assassination one, even minor, would've certainly implicated him, and wasn't that all that was needed?

Whether or not the MC found on the TSBD sixth floor was ordered/belonged to Oswald is, in a lot of minds, still a very questionable fact.

Anyway, for discussion purposes, assuming the MC was Oswald's, even if he wasn't the shooter, and just say, maybe the "rifle procurer" - didn't the plotters still accomplish their implication of his involvement in the assassination?

Also, if in fact, the TSBD' MC is actually the one that Oswald allegedly ordered, the chain of possession from between his alleged pickup - until the time it was "found" in the "sniper's lair" is more than questionable - even on a very good day.

So, what if, just for discussion, Oswald did, indeed, order said MC.  Could the scene not have gone like this?

"Hey Lee, you've been doin' a pretty nice job for us.  We need you to order this here rifle through the mail.  It's just going to be used as a part of Senator Dodd's firearms mail order investigation.  No worries."

Subsequently, Oswald is then instructed to transfer the rifle to a person or persons unknown - ostensibly to be placed in an "evidence file", at such future time when Dodd's committee "had the goods" on the firearms dealers.  Lee's little task is done, time for another assignment for the ersatz future assassin.

Whether Oswald thought he was just a witting/innocent participant in what he thought was a "false flag" op (no real harm was to come to JFK) propounded to be, by his superiors - "in the best interest of U. S. national security" or he was completely oblivious and just going about his intelligence operative usual business - in the end - didn't matter.

In either case - viola. 

Near sixty years later, for truth seekers, the "problem" remains: "Just how in the world, did Lee, that young son-of-gun, get his trusty rifle up to that "sniper's lair" that day"?

 

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

6 minutes ago, Ron Ege said:

Jonathan,

I thought, reading Sandy's post, he proffered that the plotters may have been implicating specifically LHO, not as the shooter - but perhaps they had him playing another role - that of a "ringleader" or "intermediary".  Either role or any other associated assassination one, even minor, would've certainly implicated him, and wasn't that all that was needed?

Sandy said he thought the "plotters" didn't necessarily mean for Oswald to be "seen as an assassin." And my reply was meant to illustrate that if Sandy is correct, why did the plotters go to all the trouble of framing Oswald in the first place by doing such things as planting a rifle ordered in his name at the scene of the crime?

[Tony Krome]

The transcript;

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you shoot the President?

OSWALD: I work in that building and --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you in the building at the time?

OSWALD: Naturally if I work in that building, yes, sir.

If we remove the second question;

OSWALD: I work in that building and naturally if I work in that building, yes, sir.

hmmm ...

 

[Ron Ege]

 

31 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Sandy said he thought the "plotters" didn't necessarily mean for Oswald to be "seen as an assassin." And my reply was meant to illustrate that if Sandy is correct, why did the plotters go to all the trouble of framing Oswald in the first place by doing such things as planting a rifle ordered in his name at the scene of the crime?

I do understand your point.

I cannot know the exact role that Sandy has in mind for Oswald.

That said, if as Sandy believes (I think he does anyway), that Oswald really did not own the rifle, then he did not order it.  Now what are we left with?

Heck, I don't know the plotters' plan either, but one would think that there would've been a back-up to a back-up plan, especially considering what appeared to be the plotter's foiled assassination attempts in two other cities.

Was the plot so much "smoke and mirrors" that on the one hand, Ozzie had to painted as "natural born killer" or was he just originally supposed to be painted as just the "brains" behind the plot and not the trigger man - until what - by hook or by crook - something unforeseen transpired and the plot had to be "adjusted" - at the last minute? E.g., an alternative, to the alternative . . . . . 

IMHO, LHO was not so naive to agree to order a rifle that could be traced to him, that was to be used in an assassination of the POTUS - whatever BS story he was given.

If one was indeed given, and LHO was not just blind-sided, on the surface, he'd have to see it as plausible and not one where he'd be implicated, charged, tried, convicted, and executed.  

Could the plotters, as Sandy has hypothesized, have originally had in mind to just implicate Oswald in a minor plot, and then "changed horses in the middle of the stream, thinking, "Hey, this new scenario will work out even better for us."   

Somehow, someway, no doubt, Oswald was expertly hoodwinked.  Hence, his impromptu "escape plan" from the TSBD - inexplicable - as it appears to have been.

When whatever person it comes to be that eventually solves the case - well, they''ll "be on Easy Street".

'Til then, "A mystery, wrapped in a riddle, inside an enigma".

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

8 minutes ago, Ron Ege said:

Somehow, someway, no doubt, Oswald was expertly hoodwinked.  Hence, his impromptu "escape plan" from the TSBD - inexplicable - as it appears to have been.

Or, quite simply, he ordered the rifle, carried it into the Book Depository and used it to assassinate President Kennedy. No hoodwinking or plotting necessary.

[Tony Krome]

3 hours ago, Ron Ege said:

as a former marine

I'd like your opinion on this; If you were hanging out a 5th floor window diagonally below the Sniper's Nest watching the motorcade, and a high powered rifle was fired 3 times from the SN, is it possible that you could describe the sounds as coming from somewhere below? Thanks

[Sandy Larsen]

As I pointed out in my prior post, we know from the Mexico City charade that the goal of the plotters (besides getting rid of soft-on-commies traitor JFK) was to have Cuba and Russia blamed for the killing. In order to do that, they needed to provide a trail for the FBI investigators to follow, from the shooting back to the Cubans and Russians. That is what Oswald was for.

The FBI quickly got word after the shooting that Lee Oswald had been in touch with KGB agents in Mexico City, one being chief of assassinations. So at first the FBI thought that the Cubans and Russians were sponsoring the assassination, and that Oswald was involved.

Someone in the Johnson Administration realized that this was going to lead to an international incident, likely a war. So they nipped that in the bud and said Oswald alone was to blame. That was the start of the government cover-up.

In order to blame Oswald, the government had to fabricate documents showing that he had bought the rifle.

I don't know what Oswald's instructions were, but clearly he was supposed to meet someone in the theater.

Once you figure out the above, a lot of things become clear. It was an intelligence operation, of course. The evidence indicates it was a CIA operation.

The whole operation had to be planned. The shooters had to be in position and Oswald had to be working in a place along the motorcade route. How could the CIA accomplish that? First, they had to have had influence over the person planning the motorcade route. Next, they had to get Oswald a job in a suitable place.

The TSBD must have been a CIA front. A CIA employee working at the TSBD must have offered the job to Oswald. And a CIA handler had to have instructed Oswald to take the job.

 

Most everything that happened after the assassination was a part of the Johnson Administration's cover-up. They fabricated the false documentation showing that Oswald ordered the gun.