Oswald's alibi

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Karl Hilliard said:

The 'Curtain Rod' story.... the 'Paper Bag'---- total fabrication.

On Frazier's part? Not likely.

Consider...

1) The package Frazier claimed he saw in Oswald's possession was the exact same size as a package of curtain rods, and roughly half the size of the bag the DPD claimed had held the rifle... (This seems highly unlikely should he have invented the curtain rod story to incriminate Oswald.)

2) Oswald's rented room had a busted curtain rod...that the DPD and WC tried to conceal...

3) Ruth Paine could not find the package of curtain rods she thought was in her garage, and ultimately claimed, four months after the shooting, when the only curtain rods she could find in her garage were loose curtain rods, that she must have been mistaken. 

4) A set of curtain rods was tested for fingerprints before the curtain rods found in Mrs. Paine's garage had been recovered. The DPD then faked up some paperwork to make it look like the curtain rods they'd tested were the ones recovered from her garage. 

 

In short, it seems quite likely the curtain rod "story" was not a story told by Frazier, but a story told by others to hide that 1) curtain rods were needed at Oswald's rented room, 2) curtain rods were missing from Mrs. Paine's garage, and 3) curtain rods were recovered at Oswald's place of work, or somewhere that could be linked back to him...

 

 

 

[David Von Pein]

2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

It seems quite likely the curtain rod "story" was not a story told by Frazier, but a story told by others to hide that 1) curtain rods were needed at Oswald's rented room, 2) curtain rods were missing from Mrs. Paine's garage, and 3) curtain rods were recovered at Oswald's place of work, or somewhere that could be linked back to him...

The curtain rod "story" was most definitely a "story" (i.e., lie) invented by just one person---Lee Harvey Oswald. And unless conspiracy theorists think Buell Wesley Frazier was lying his ass off when he used the words "curtain rods" three separate times in his 11/22/63 affidavit (pictured below), then it's pretty obvious where the curtain rod "story" originated.

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com / Oswald's "Curtain Rods" Lie

Click to enlarge....

Edited September 15, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Roger Odisio]

On 9/14/2022 at 4:58 PM, Pat Speer said:

I have not focused as much on "who did it" as I have "what happened'.  But I tend to believe whoever did it picked Oswald as a patsy because of his background as a commie, and not because they thought he was a nut. IOW, they wanted the trail to lead to Cuba, and Russia, and not stop at Oswald. 

So I would have to assume those involved were right-wing hawks, with access to the intelligence agencies. SO...if I had to pick I'd pick people like Harvey, Robertson, Morales and Phillips as suspects... using some anti-Castro Cuban shooters. But I don't think they would have made the call. No, I think the call would have to have been made by someone with lots of moolah and connections... Perhaps someone like H.L. Hunt... But I don't think we can ignore Harvey's connections to Roselli and thereby Giancana and thereby Marcello, and thereby Trafficante... 

So it may have been a mob hit, after all.. With LBJ's blessing, of course...

The people you fingered from the CIA all reported to, and were beholden to, the person they all called the old man--Allen Dulles.  They would have done nothing, and organized nothing by themselves, with Dulles' input.  Without him as the engineer of the plot.

Hunt was no doubt cheering them on, but they didn't need his money.  Nobody in Washington even knows what the CIA's budget is and they don't want to know what it does with the money.

Dulles and the CIA already had considerable experience in running foreign coups--Iran, Guatemala, Lamumba in the Congo, I think Dag Hammarskjold when he tried to protect the valuable ore deposits from Belgium and US control.  Kennedy of course would be a much bigger and more difficult job.  That's one reason it required Dulles and his cohorts to run it.    

Whether Johnson even knew about it beforehand I think is an uninteresting question.  They knew Johnson would do most of what they wanted.  Later in a recorded call with McNamara Johnson verified some of that by telling him he never agreed with his and Kennedy's plan to withdraw from Vietnam, but said nothing.

[Karl Hilliard]

Mr. BALL - Did he [Oswald] come in with anybody?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - He was alone?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; he was alone.
Mr. BALL - Do you recall him having anything in his hand?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't see anything, if he did.
Mr. BALL - Did you pay enough attention to him, you think, that you would remember whether he did or didn't?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I believe I can---yes, sir---I'll put it this way; I didn't see anything in his hands at the time.
Mr. BALL - In other words, your memory is definite on that is it?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I would say that---yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Or, are you guessing?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I don't think so.
Mr. BALL - You saw him come in the door?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - The back door on the first floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - It was in the back door.
Mr. BALL - Now, that back door is the door that opens onto what? That back door would be the first floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And it opens where?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - On the back deck--on the back dock side over there.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

10:30 A.M.-1:10 P.M.   Interrogation, Capt. Will Fritz's Office----

Quote

The FBI has overstepped their bounds in using various tactics in interviewing me. . . . I didn't shoot John Kennedy. . . . I didn't even know Gov. John Connally had been shot. . . . I don't own a rifle. . . . I didn't tell Buell Wesley Frazier anything about bringing back some curtain rods. . . . I did carry a package to the Texas School Book Depository. I carried my lunch, a sandwich and fruit, which I made at Paine's house. .

 https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/LHO.html

Edited September 18, 2022 by Karl Hilliard

[Andric Perez]

On 9/14/2022 at 4:58 PM, Pat Speer said:

So it may have been a mob hit, after all.. With LBJ's blessing, of course...

Have you ever addressed the alleged Chicago plot in early November 1963? 3-4 Cubans (if I don't misremember) were seen fleeing the scene, after screwing it all up.

If this attempted plot story happened, it looks like Cuban exiles were picked as low-level participants (perhaps shooters). And they had strong motive (Perceived Bay of Pigs betrayal) and means (Guerrilla training and mob connections) to have participated.

Agree?

[Benjamin Cole]

9 hours ago, Andric Perez said:

Have you ever addressed the alleged Chicago plot in early November 1963? 3-4 Cubans (if I don't misremember) were seen fleeing the scene, after screwing it all up.

If this attempted plot story happened, it looks like Cuban exiles were picked as low-level participants (perhaps shooters). And they had strong motive (Perceived Bay of Pigs betrayal) and means (Guerrilla training and mob connections) to have participated.

Agree?

Yes, that topic has been addressed on this EF many times, though I do not know the best way to search for it. 

In my own view, the idea that mid-level CIA mercenaries and Cubano exiles effected the JFKA as revenge for the perceived BoP betrayal is most likely explanation of the event. 

I also speculate that LHO was part of the Operation Northwoods type plot; his role (he believed) was to shoot at JFK and miss, part of an intentionally failed assassination. Other people shot for real. 

 

[Ron Ege]

6 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Yes, that topic has been addressed on this EF many times, though I do not know the best way to search for it. 

In my own view, the idea that mid-level CIA mercenaries and Cubano exiles effected the JFKA as revenge for the perceived BoP betrayal is most likely explanation of the event. 

I also speculate that LHO was part of the Operation Northwoods type plot; his role (he believed) was to shoot at JFK and miss, part of an intentionally failed assassination. Other people shot for real. 

 

Ben, interesting.

Just wondering, and I do understand that it is just your speculation, what your estimated probability of Oswald assuming that role and actually carrying it out on 11/22/63?

'Tis been a long time, but didn't Oswald ask one of his fellow workers that day, something to the effect of, "What is all the commotion (people gathering) about?" - obviously, before the motorcade passed before the TSBD.

And whoever it was, told him that the president was coming, and Oswald allegedly said something like, "I see"?

I agree - it sort of beggars believe that he didn't know; it that conversation did happen, then maybe if it, indeed did, he was just "polishing" his alibi?

I guess I'm "hung up" on how Oswald could've done any shooting with the MC, since I've yet to read any incontrovertible proof that he brought it to work that day or any day previous.  And that's not even getting into the question of whether or not ever actually ordered/had possession of it.

I'm pretty sure someone here - can "straighten me out".

 

[Pat Speer]

16 hours ago, Andric Perez said:

Have you ever addressed the alleged Chicago plot in early November 1963? 3-4 Cubans (if I don't misremember) were seen fleeing the scene, after screwing it all up.

If this attempted plot story happened, it looks like Cuban exiles were picked as low-level participants (perhaps shooters). And they had strong motive (Perceived Bay of Pigs betrayal) and means (Guerrilla training and mob connections) to have participated.

Agree?

I haven't focused much on it, no. But as I recall a number of anti-Castro Cubans were funded by the mob. I seem to recall, moreover, that the Chicago plot led back to Cubans backed by the mob. But I could be confused with another plot. 

In any event, it's hard to separate the mob from the CIA in that period of time. The mob had the CIA's blessing and encouragement to kill Castro. And the mob looked at this as a get-out-of-jail free card. So it wouldn't surprise me if 1) the mob decided to kill Kennedy and expected the CIA to help them cover it up, or 2) an element of the CIA decided to kill Kennedy using mob-related figures to muddy the waters. 

I should probably re-read it. But the best look into this mess was performed by Larry Hancock, in Someone Would Have Talked. 

[Gil Jesus]

16 hours ago, Andric Perez said:

Have you ever addressed the alleged Chicago plot in early November 1963? 3-4 Cubans (if I don't misremember) were seen fleeing the scene, after screwing it all up.

If this attempted plot story happened, it looks like Cuban exiles were picked as low-level participants (perhaps shooters). And they had strong motive (Perceived Bay of Pigs betrayal) and means (Guerrilla training and mob connections) to have participated.

Agree?

I believe that the shooters in Dealey Plaza were members of the DRE in Dallas. There's a connection between the DRE and North Texas State University and a connection between North Texas State University and Warren Caster, the man who brought the rifles into the TSBD two days before the assassination.

If you remember, it was the DRE that Oswald was trying to infiltrate when he approached the New Orleans branch's secretary, Carlos Bringuier, and offered to train exiles.

I believe two members of that 4-man Cuban hit team that was headed for Chicago were captured and later released. The other two evaded capture. I wouldn't be surprised if the two that got away were the same two who dumped a drunken Rose Cherami on a Louisiana road. But I can't prove it.

I also believe that Off. Baker encountered a man on the 3rd or 4th floor landing in "a light brown jacket" that Roy Truly vouched for as an employee. Baker's original affidavit said exactly that  ( https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337201/ ). Truly had the power to allow gunmen to escape the building just by vouching for them. And according to William Manchester in The Death of a President, Roy Truly "violently disapproved of the Kennedy Presidency" ( pg. 447 ).

There are some characters here that the FBI should have taken a closer look at and I'm sure that they would have in a normal investigation. But this was an investigation to gather evidence against OSWALD, not neccessarily to find the truth.

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, Ron Ege said:

Ben, interesting.

Just wondering, and I do understand that it is just your speculation, what your estimated probability of Oswald assuming that role and actually carrying it out on 11/22/63?

'Tis been a long time, but didn't Oswald ask one of his fellow workers that day, something to the effect of, "What is all the commotion (people gathering) about?" - obviously, before the motorcade passed before the TSBD.

And whoever it was, told him that the president was coming, and Oswald allegedly said something like, "I see"?

I agree - it sort of beggars believe that he didn't know; it that conversation did happen, then maybe if it, indeed did, he was just "polishing" his alibi?

I guess I'm "hung up" on how Oswald could've done any shooting with the MC, since I've yet to read any incontrovertible proof that he brought it to work that day or any day previous.  And that's not even getting into the question of whether or not ever actually ordered/had possession of it.

I'm pretty sure someone here - can "straighten me out".

 

Ron E-

Of course, at this late date, and with LHO dead...guesswork is what we have.

But riddle me this: There are solid grounds to believe LHO was a CIA asset, and that he took an easy potshot at General Walker and missed. 

My speculation is the LHO-Walker shooting was a practice run. 

So, we have a lot of evidence LHO was a CIA asset, and that the JFKA had CIA involvement.

Anything is possible, but it feels odd to posit that LHO was a CIA asset, and the JFK was assassinated by CIA assets, and LHO, right in the building from where at least some shots were issued, had nothing at all to do with it.  

My guess is LHO was in fact a patsy, but would not have participated in a bona fide plot to shoot the president. That leaves an Operation Northwoods-type event. 

But hey---reasonable speculation (on my part) is not facts.  I am just trying to line up what we know with what happened (which involved at least two gunman behind JFK and also a third party on the Grassy Knoll). 

Just IMHO. 

 

[Matthew Koch]

16 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Ron E-

Of course, at this late date, and with LHO dead...guesswork is what we have.

But riddle me this: There are solid grounds to believe LHO was a CIA asset, and that he took an easy potshot at General Walker and missed. 

My speculation is the LHO-Walker shooting was a practice run. 

 

 

Hi Ben, 

I think there are solid grounds to make the case that Oswald was a CIA, FBI, ONI, and possibly Local Police Informant, Asset, Agent or Operative.

He probably was one of those roles for possibly one or maybe even all of the organizations. I think that when Oswald was sitting in that cell he was trying to figure out which one of those groups set him up. But didn't fully know himself. Which is why he may have made the North Carolina phone call in an attempt to try to find out.
 It is very possible that the Walker shooting was either A:
Oswald doing the shooting to get into a group. Similar to how people have to kill or shoot someone before they can join the Mafia or a gang. That could explain if it was Oswald why the shot missed, he was the undercover agent attempting to infiltrate and group which knew he was attempting to infiltrate and that's why he missed it was on purpose. (We have him trying to infiltrate Pro Casro Cubans in N.O under a similar M.O. where he was easily figured out) Or  B:
It could have been an Oswald double and that the shooting was a new phase in the Oswald impersonations (Remember Jeeps were purchased under his name while he was in Russia, causing J. Edgar Hoover to make a note about it) remember the boy who was in the back yard saw two men leave in a Black Car that was similar to the same one reported to be driving around the Grassy Knoll that an officer got into a brief chase with.)

Oswald goes to New Orleans the same time JFK starts issuing NSAMS aka a secret withdrawal from Vietnam. So, I have always looked at this as the beginning of the plot. I have also recently come to learn about the Walker interview he gave in Germany where he shouldn't have know at that time about Oswald doing the shooting. I have always suspected that he was connected to Reinhart Ghelen and that the fascist connection in the case (The New Orleans poopoo that looked like E.Howard Hunt could be Ghelen, Charles Williby and all the Minute men, George Lincoln Rockwell being in Oswalds adress book, could be Operatives from his Ghelen Network. Which would spill into Operation Gladio and even in the USSR, Dulles did the same thing with his organization (Ghelan Network) as Paper Clip because they had operatives in Russia and that could be how Oswald got in the USSR) Reinhart Ghelen is a member of the CIA and Knights of Malta like Allen Dulles. I have always suspected that the Knights of Malta is the group that gave the order to remove the President of the United States. Joe Kennedy was a knight of Malta so they would have looked at what JFK was doing as class treason. Ghelen says in his book that Kennedy was weak and that he thought there were still Nukes in Cuba after the Crisis. He also participated in the failed Valkerie plot. IMO the Order to remove the POTUS came from the secret society people at the upper echelon who run the CIA and Military (Look up the Malta military order membership you will find some very surprising names like James Jesus Angleton)  But who knows that's just more food for thought.. = )

 

[Roger Odisio]

On 10/2/2022 at 5:52 AM, Benjamin Cole said:

Yes, that topic has been addressed on this EF many times, though I do not know the best way to search for it. 

In my own view, the idea that mid-level CIA mercenaries and Cubano exiles effected the JFKA as revenge for the perceived BoP betrayal is most likely explanation of the event. 

I also speculate that LHO was part of the Operation Northwoods type plot; his role (he believed) was to shoot at JFK and miss, part of an intentionally failed assassination. Other people shot for real. 

 

The idea that Oswald was part of an Operation Northwoods plot where he was to intentionally shoot and miss JFK has a certain abstract appeal, but for me it runs into a roadblock:  Oswald wasn't on the sixth floor to do his part.

The mid level CIA mercenaries and Cuban exiles revenge idea misses the main point about the importance of the JFKA.  It was not an isolated incident, not a one time murder, not solely about one man.  It was part of an ideological war by the Dulles brothers and their cohorts immediately after WWII.  Allen Dulles thought the US was on the wrong side during the war.  The Soviet Union was the real enemy.

And, as they saw it, everyone was required to choose sides.  There was to be no such thing as a third world, non-aligned country.  DeGaulle's consideration of Algeria 's freedom was enough to get him targeted for assassination. 

The CIA had already overthrown governments in Iran and Guatemalo and murdered Lamumba and Hammarskjold to steal the Congo's resources, when it turned its attention to what had become their most powerful enemy, JFK in their own backyard.  The American University speech that Krushchev called the greatest since Roosevelt, together with the back channel discussions with Krushchev and Castro, left no doubt about that.

But that was just the beginning of their ideological war on the American Left with Hoover's help.  Next up:  Malcolm, MLK, RFK, the Panthers and Fred Hampton, even the San Francisco Diggers in rapid fire order to consolidate their grip.

Ultimately in the 1990s this led to the Wolfowitz Doctrine after the collapse of the Soviet Union: to do whatever is necessary to suppress any challenges to US hegemony that had grown since WWII. The JFKA was a major step, the springboard, for much of this, particularly when its perpetrators saw how easy it was to get away with.

But that's precisely what is being challenged today by Russia, China and much of the Global South.  A new world, certainly a new economic order, may be on the way.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

3 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

The idea that Oswald was part of an Operation Northwoods plot where he was to intentionally shoot and miss JFK has a certain abstract appeal, but for me it runs into a roadblock:  Oswald wasn't on the sixth floor to do his part.

The mid level CIA mercenaries and Cuban exiles revenge idea misses the main point about the importance of the JFKA.  It was not an isolated incident, not a one time murder, not solely about one man.  It was part of an ideological war by the Dulles brothers and their cohorts immediately after WWII.  Allen Dulles thought the US was on the wrong side during the war.  The Soviet Union was the real enemy.

And, as they saw it, everyone was required to choose sides.  There was to be no such thing as a third world, non-aligned country.  DeGaulle's consideration of Algeria 's freedom was enough to get him targeted for assassination. 

The CIA had already overthrown governments in Iran and Guatemalo and murdered Lamumba and Hammarskjold to steal the Congo's resources, when it turned its attention to what had become their most powerful enemy, JFK in their own backyard.  The American University speech that Krushchev called the greatest since Roosevelt, together with the back channel discussions with Krushchev and Castro, left no doubt about that.

But that was just the beginning of their ideological war on the American Left with Hoover's help.  Next up:  Malcolm, MLK, RFK, the Panthers and Fred Hampton, even the San Francisco Diggers in rapid fire order to consolidate their grip.

Ultimately in the 1990s this led to the Wolfowitz Doctrine after the collapse of the Soviet Union: to do whatever is necessary to suppress any challenges to US hegemony that had grown since WWII. The JFKA was a major step, the springboard, for much of this, particularly when its perpetrators saw how easy it was to get away with.

But that's precisely what is being challenged today by Russia, China and much of the Global South.  A new world, certainly a new economic order, may be on the way.

 

Roger-

Well, at this late date, I cannot prove where was LHO during the JFKA.

I can tell you that no one ever said, "As shots rang out, I was standing shoulder-to-shoulder with LHO," or anything similar. 

In other words, LHO was invisible during the actual shooting. 

Verily, there were many probably relieved after the JFKA. JFK's non-interventionist approach to foreign policy was novel, and was a threat to the globalists who were running foreign-military-trade policy then (and now, but in spades). 

However, just as proving LHO was the murderer would fail in a true legal test, so would proving "Dulles did it."  There is no evidence of higher-ups directing the JFKA, although suspicions are reasonable.  

It may be that higher-ups leaked the right info to the Miami CIA station crowd regarding LHO....

Hey, just IMHO....

[Benjamin Cole]

6 hours ago, Matthew Koch said:

Hi Ben, 

I think there are solid grounds to make the case that Oswald was a CIA, FBI, ONI, and possibly Local Police Informant, Asset, Agent or Operative.

He probably was one of those roles for possibly one or maybe even all of the organizations. I think that when Oswald was sitting in that cell he was trying to figure out which one of those groups set him up. But didn't fully know himself. Which is why he may have made the North Carolina phone call in an attempt to try to find out.
 It is very possible that the Walker shooting was either A:
Oswald doing the shooting to get into a group. Similar to how people have to kill or shoot someone before they can join the Mafia or a gang. That could explain if it was Oswald why the shot missed, he was the undercover agent attempting to infiltrate and group which knew he was attempting to infiltrate and that's why he missed it was on purpose. (We have him trying to infiltrate Pro Casro Cubans in N.O under a similar M.O. where he was easily figured out) Or  B:
It could have been an Oswald double and that the shooting was a new phase in the Oswald impersonations (Remember Jeeps were purchased under his name while he was in Russia, causing J. Edgar Hoover to make a note about it) remember the boy who was in the back yard saw two men leave in a Black Car that was similar to the same one reported to be driving around the Grassy Knoll that an officer got into a brief chase with.)

Oswald goes to New Orleans the same time JFK starts issuing NSAMS aka a secret withdrawal from Vietnam. So, I have always looked at this as the beginning of the plot. I have also recently come to learn about the Walker interview he gave in Germany where he shouldn't have know at that time about Oswald doing the shooting. I have always suspected that he was connected to Reinhart Ghelen and that the fascist connection in the case (The New Orleans poopoo that looked like E.Howard Hunt could be Ghelen, Charles Williby and all the Minute men, George Lincoln Rockwell being in Oswalds adress book, could be Operatives from his Ghelen Network. Which would spill into Operation Gladio and even in the USSR, Dulles did the same thing with his organization (Ghelan Network) as Paper Clip because they had operatives in Russia and that could be how Oswald got in the USSR) Reinhart Ghelen is a member of the CIA and Knights of Malta like Allen Dulles. I have always suspected that the Knights of Malta is the group that gave the order to remove the President of the United States. Joe Kennedy was a knight of Malta so they would have looked at what JFK was doing as class treason. Ghelen says in his book that Kennedy was weak and that he thought there were still Nukes in Cuba after the Crisis. He also participated in the failed Valkerie plot. IMO the Order to remove the POTUS came from the secret society people at the upper echelon who run the CIA and Military (Look up the Malta military order membership you will find some very surprising names like James Jesus Angleton)  But who knows that's just more food for thought.. = )

 

MK_

The problem with the JFKA is there are enough opaque areas that we fill in the blanks with our suppositions. Our suppositions strike ourselves as tremendously insightful and reasonable.  Excellent conjecture!

The next guy reads your supposition and yawns. He has a better supposition. His supposition. 

So it goes....

 

[Roger Odisio]

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Roger-

Well, at this late date, I cannot prove where was LHO during the JFKA.

I can tell you that no one ever said, "As shots rang out, I was standing shoulder-to-shoulder with LHO," or anything similar. 

In other words, LHO was invisible during the actual shooting. 

RO:  Of course no one stood up and contradicted the official story.  Or in the miniscule chance someone did, we never heard about it.  That's no mystery is it?  But we know where Oswald *wasn't*.  The 6th floor window.  He never came down those steps afterward.  Eventually someone may even be able to prove where he was.

Verily, there were many probably relieved after the JFKA. JFK's non-interventionist approach to foreign policy was novel, and was a threat to the globalists who were running foreign-military-trade policy then (and now, but in spades). 

However, just as proving LHO was the murderer would fail in a true legal test, so would proving "Dulles did it."  There is no evidence of higher-ups directing the JFKA, although suspicions are reasonable.  

RO:  Can you explain, then, the message sent from the White House to the plane coming back from Dallas that afternoon, with the Kennedy party on board, saying we have caught the murderer.  The message was clear:  no matter what you think you saw in Dallas, the case is solved.  Do not step out of line.  Some Kennedy aides (Ken O'Donnell and Paul Fay, I think) had already indicated they thought shots came from the front.  They didn't repeat that. 

It may be that higher-ups leaked the right info to the Miami CIA station crowd regarding LHO....

Hey, just IMHO....