The (laughable) SBT

[Paul Cummings]

The odds are probably better for me to win the Power Ball than the SBT actually occurring.

[Matthew Koch]

On 10/1/2022 at 12:01 AM, David Von Pein said:

The SBT pretty much presents itself as the truth. There's really no need for any one person to "come up with it" at all.

Why is this so, you ask?

Because of all these things I mentioned two days ago:

1. The alignment of the two limo victims at the time of the shooting;

2. The location of the only known shooter in Dealey Plaza (in the TSBD, on the sixth floor, in the southeast corner window);

3. The fact that no bullets were found in JFK's body;

4. The fact that a whole bullet which positively came out of the gun that was found on the sixth floor of the TSBD was found inside the hospital where the two victims were taken;

5. The fact that the two injured limo victims reacted to being shot at the exact same time on the Zapruder Film.

With the above 5 things in place (despite the protests from CTers, who disagree with all of the points above, except for perhaps #3), the SBT practically solves itself.

 

 

 

Hi David Von Pein, 

First, off I wanted to say hello! I have been a Youtube subscriber of your channel for over 10 yrs and I wanted to say thank you for doing that! It really helped my learn about the Kennedy Administratio. Lots of really good audio and vintage footage, your upload of Four Days in November is higher quality than my hard copy. Also, I actually found this forum 10yrs ago through reading on your channel that your had your own websites and when I search I found a debate between you and James DiEugenio and I found this forum, and was a on again off again lurker of this place for a long time. I didn't join earlier because I was still learning enough and didn't feel I understood the event/evidence/case/history well enough than to participate in the the forum. So, I wanted to say thank you and while I disagree with you on a lot of the conspiracy evidence in the case. I feel that you contribute to the community and it good to have people have their evidence and theories challenged similar to how court proceeding are supposed to work to get a better verdict. You Single Assassin guys seem to be an endangered species now a days... 

1. The alignment of the two victims is in line with what the Debunkers claim Connally is slightly more inboard than JFK and sits slightly lower. 

Problem is that after Discovery Channel did their Re-enactment. What we learned through the junk science experiment was that: Yes, a bullet could hit both men, but we also learned that the exit out of Kennedy wasn't in the neck it was lower around where the collar bone upper chest area. The Bullet did not strike Connally ins the area of the arm pit. It struck him in the lower back striking two ribs. Mark Fuhrman wrote a single assassin book called 'A Simple Act of Murder' in it he pointed these same points out and than used similar deducing logic as Arlen Specter and said well I still think it's one shooter, just Oswald must have not missed the first shot and he incorporated another shot into the equation the was the Secret Service and FBI did. But he as a criminal investigator all be it a disgraced one , he had to admit that BYTMB misrepresented their test and actually proved it can't happen. Because the bullet always tumbles when it exits a medium, this is the John K. Lattimer test. Problem is: Conally's jacket, shirt, and Xray all have small round hole. Connally's Jacket has an oval hole for the exit because it is doing what the science showed going into yaw and starting to tumble. When we look at the Discovery test the two ballistic dummies after the bullet exits the Connally dummy it no longer has enough momentum to break the wrist bone. The scar that debunkers point to is elongated because that's how round wounds heal. I have anecdotal evidence of that happening to myself, my ground wound healed in a oval line when the sink healed back together also Conally have surgery in at same place to repair his lung and rib. 

 I would ask you David why don't you believe that the bullet in Parkland is from Kennedy's back wound, and the pieces in the limo are from Connally being hit by a separate bullet hitting is wrist in yaw and breaking apart when it broke his wrist bone. Leaving as  Doctor  Shaw said a very small piece of bullet in his leg. For the lone gunman people this seems more possible to me than the single bullet conclusion. (you don't have to answer I'm just thinking out loud) 

4. The whole bullet found at Parkland. As we already learned in point 1, The Beyond the Bullet Magic tests that Discovery did, left a bullet that the guy who fired the bullet from the sniper position was said to not be perfect condition. And, lols, LMAO the narrator had to ask "why is our bullet more deformed?" Well the short answer is called physics, because as Doctor Dolche learned in the test for the Warren Commission. What happens through the law of physics for a bullet to break a bone it has to be traveling at a velocity that it will always deform the bullet when striking a dense substance like bone. In the the BYTMB tests the bullet went through two dummies and when it struck two ribs sideways it was going fast enough it deformed the bullet. NOW, mind you the only reason we learned this is because the JFK ballistic dummy didn't have a thoracic cage in it, which translates to layman as they didn't but a skeleton in JFK because had they the bullet wouldn't have made it to Connally  dummy before striking bone. Which is even more straw on top of this camel's already broken back. 

5. The Victims reaction. The two victims reaction time is actually the same when to line them up with the Dictabelt recording JFK is hit behind the sign and it will take jfk around 10 frames before we see him emerge from the sign and start to bring his hands up. It is at this time that we see the lapel flap that lines up exactly with he dictibelt recording (which will also coincidentally line up with he 3rd and 4th shots striking JFK in the head.) It will then take Connally the same 10 frames for him to react with his cheeks puffing and showing facial displays of pain. It was at this point that researchers in the 90's and was in the film JFK that Connally was being shot at that moment. He wasn't he was reacting at that moment. Now when we go back to the Zapruder film and watch a good copy you can now see that when Jackie turns her head JFK is struck the car will go from that point to just out of the sign and JFK reacts. At this moment Connally is hit and it will take him around the same time before he begins to react also. Which is factoring in reaction time immediate and aligns the film and his and Nelly's testimony before the Warren Commission and ever since as pointed out by Connally's Doctor." 

 

[Bob Ness]

5 hours ago, Paul Cummings said:

The odds are probably better for me to win the Power Ball than the SBT actually occurring.

I like the way Pam put it - frame it as a "concept" rather than a theory. I can buy that as a concept it should be investigated as should several other possibilities.

As I've said before, having a bit of experience in some of the technical areas of the recreations that have been performed I don't see "proof" in the sense that it eliminates all other possibilities. There are too many variables still in play. Combine that with the indisputable fact that the autopsy was poorly done, evidence was destroyed or improperly gathered, and the WC seemed to place it's need to sweep the issue aside (for it's own reasons) above discovering what occurred.

There are also contextual considerations in play that get lost in discussing the JFKA and WCR. At that time, many of the LEO's were former WW2 vets (or WW1) that no doubt suffered from undiagnosed PTSD and had grown up in a less liberalized life experience. In the deep South and including Texas, they weren't even 100 years removed from the Civil War (the last Confederate soldier died in Houston in 1959) and the sons and daughters of the Confederacy were alive and well. The Cold War contributed its own poison to this concoction and after all is said and done the investigation into the most important event in American history in the 20th century looks in retrospect like a not-very-funny Keystone Cops slapstick reel.

[Karl Hilliard]

On 10/1/2022 at 1:01 AM, David Von Pein said:

 

1. The alignment of the two limo victims at the time of the shooting;

2. The location of the only known shooter in Dealey Plaza (in the TSBD, on the sixth floor, in the southeast corner window);

3. The fact that no bullets were found in JFK's body;

4. The fact that a whole bullet which positively came out of the gun that was found on the sixth floor of the TSBD was found inside the hospital where the two victims were taken;

5. The fact that the two injured limo victims reacted to being shot at the exact same time on the Zapruder Film.

With the above 5 things in place (despite the protests from CTers, who disagree with all of the points above, except for perhaps #3), the SBT practically solves itself.

 

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The alignment of the two limo victims at the time of the shooting

That proves nothing.

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The location of the only known shooter in Dealey Plaza (in the TSBD, on the sixth floor, in the southeast corner window);

That proves nothing.

Quote

The fact that no bullets were found in JFK's body;

Something that is not looked for... will not be found-------
 

Quote

 

...the pathologists claimed that during the time they had access to JFK’s remains, they only knew that JFK had what they believed was an entrance wound in the back with no exit wound, and a tracheotomy wound in the throat. They were also convinced that the bullet must have come out somewhere, because X-rays had shown there was no whole bullet left anywhere inside JFK’s body. Given that JFK’s personal physician, Admiral George Burkley, had made retrieving bullet evidence one of the primary goals of the autopsy, the absence of any bullets in JFK’s body posed a huge problem. The only explanation that they said had occurred to them during the autopsy was that perhaps a bullet had entered JFK’s back shallowly and was later massaged back out the back wound during cardiopulmonary resuscitation at Parkland Hospital.

In other words, when JFK’s body left the morgue, they were supposedly still uncertain about the fate of the missile that they believed, perhaps from press reports, had hit JFK in the back.

https://history-matters.com/essays/frameup/EvenMoreMagical/EvenMoreMagical.htm

 

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The fact that a whole bullet which positively came out of the gun that was found on the sixth floor of the TSBD was found inside the hospital where the two victims were taken;

Yawn and ho-hum. That argument is so redundant----

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The fact that the two injured limo victims reacted to being shot at the exact same time on the Zapruder Film.

An opinion.... not a fact---which again proves nothing. Best stated--shot at approximately the same time and proven that it couldn't be that 6th floor rifle by the ballistics experts.

[David Von Pein]

16 minutes ago, Karl Hilliard said:

Something that is not looked for... will not be found-------

So you think the autopsy surgeons didn't even look for any bullets in JFK's body?

You'd better think again.

Edited October 2, 2022 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

2 hours ago, Matthew Koch said:

I would ask you, David, why don't you believe that the bullet in Parkland is from Kennedy's back wound...?

That would be impossible since neither JFK nor his stretcher was ever located in the area of Parkland where the bullet was found on Nov. 22.

 

2 hours ago, Matthew Koch said:

and the pieces in the limo are from Connally being hit by a separate bullet hitting his wrist...

Some doctors have stated that Connally's wrist would have sustained more damage if that wrist had been struck by a separate bullet that had not gone through the neck of John Kennedy first.

Although I'm sure that conspiracists won't have any trouble finding some medical professionals of their own that will say something to the contrary. Because as everybody here knows, there are plenty of opinions to go around in this case.

(And thank you, Matthew, for the opening comments in your previous post.)

Edited October 2, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Bob Ness]

5 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

So you think the autopsy surgeons didn't even look for any bullets in JFK's body?

You'd better think again.

What is an autopsy surgeon? Is there such a thing? Pathologists?

I believe the only confirmation of this is Humes' 3rd attempt at his report as the first two were destroyed for some reason.

[Karl Hilliard]

26 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

So you think the autopsy surgeons didn't even look for any bullets in JFK's body?

You'd better think again.

David...You have already commented that you believe the statements of one of the country's [possibly the world's] foremost forensic pathologists is that of a buffoon..a kook...and a loon---so what would what I think matter?

If there were upper torso X-rays of JFK please link to this as I am not aware.

 

[Joe Bauer]

It's the condition of the magic bullet that is as much the issue.

And it's laughable appearance on a stretcher.

Dr. Robert Shaw himself told the WC he did not believe a bullet in the condition of the stretcher found pristine one could do all the damage to Connelly that he witnessed.

And Shaw only learns of the magic bullet ten days after his surgery on Connelly?

Here's another thought.

The stretcher upon which the magic bullet was found was used to transport Connelly from the limo to the ER and/or the surgery room. Were Connelly's pants removed on that stretcher?  Or where they removed upon his arrival to a treatment room?

I ask because it would be hard for the thigh lodged bullet to fall out on a stretcher if Connelly's pants were still on. Si?

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

4 hours ago, Matthew Koch said:

 I would ask you David why don't you believe that the bullet in Parkland is from Kennedy's back wound, and the pieces in the limo are from Connally being hit by a separate bullet hitting is wrist in yaw and breaking apart when it broke his wrist bone. Leaving as  Doctor  Shaw said a very small piece of bullet in his leg. For the lone gunman people this seems more possible to me than the single bullet conclusion. (you don't have to answer I'm just thinking out loud) 
 

 

Tests have shown that a ricochet of a Carcano FMJ off a pipe (eg the overhead signals below Oswald's window) fragments into....

(1) a remnant solid slug (which made a hole in the floorpan of the jfklimo), &

(2) the FMJ breaks into 2 (koz it is made in 2 halves stuck together)(found in the jfklimo), &

(3) a spray of melted bits of lead (seen in Xrays on the back of jfk's head).

 

(1)(2)(3) take 3 different groups of deflexion angles. If i remember aright -- (3) has a small angle, & i forget whether it is (1) or (2) that has the widest angle.

 

The bits of lead found in the jfklimo might have been from ....

(a) Oswald's shot-1 (at say Z103-113), &

(b) Hickey's headshot at Z313 (the main remnant slug exited the skull & cracked the windshield, & probably exited the limo),

(c) Hickey's shot at say Z310 that made a dent in the chrome trim (& most of the lead probably exited the limo). 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Marjan Rynkiewicz

[Karl Hilliard]

Quote

Dr. PETTY. Yes, sir, I will be very glad to, Mr. Preyer. I think it is necessary at this point to sum up, in a sense, the flight of the bullet and its effect on those it struck. The bullet that struck the late President in the upper right back area and then went on to penetrate the soft structures of the neck and to exit in the front of the neck was, as has been indicated already, traveling in a somewhat upward direction anatomically speaking.

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo/petty.htm

And so an artist drew what Petty described----

 
Diagram of bullet's path from HSCA report. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-bullet_theory

 Instead of accurately observing JFK's position in the film---

At frame 203 [microseconds within the "suggested" hit in the back] JFK is not bent forward [unlike the cartoon shown above]

[Chris Bristow]

23 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

Yeah I haven't done the math but it seems to me that could be true. Researching the buildings and slopes etc to create a 3d model is more than I'm will to commit to the idea, but I'd imagine it's been done before. The idea of reconstructing the scene to verify a desired result and then to conceal or camouflage the margin of error seems dubious. I haven't looked into it enough to conclude that is what happened but I reject the stance that the eye-witness testimony has no value.

That statement seems designed to cement a foregone conclusion to me. "Don't listen to them! Here's what actually happened!!" Follow that with a convoluted tapestry of rationalizations based on flimsy mathematical assumptions by propellor-heads. Nah. I like the people who saw and heard it a foot away from the event.

I am sure the reconstruction was done with the intent to support the official story. At least they acknowledged the variables and made the yellow cone large. Many witness statements like the Hester's make a solid argument for shots coming from the TSB. I think shots did come from there and somewhere else too. The close to matching trajectories from the TSB and Dal Tex are, imo, just an interesting fact, but I do not intend to make a theory out of it.

[David Von Pein]

4 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

What is an autopsy surgeon? Is there such a thing? Pathologists?

Yes, the autopsy physicians were, indeed, "pathologists". But they have also been referred to as "surgeons" as well....including here (twice) on page 60 of the Warren Report.

 

4 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

I believe the only confirmation of this [i.e., the autopsy doctors looking for bullets inside JFK's body] is Humes' 3rd attempt at his report as the first two were destroyed for some reason.

I'm not aware of any THIRD attempt by Dr. Humes at writing the final autopsy report. I only know of two such efforts by Humes, which was due to the fact that the first draft of the autopsy report contained some errors, which an irritated Dr. Humes attempted to clarify (at least in part) during his ARRB testimony session in February of 1996:

DR. JAMES J. HUMES -- Well, it [the first draft of the autopsy report] may have had errors in spelling or I don't know what was the matter with it, or whether I even ever did that. I don't know. I can't recall. I absolutely can't recall, and I apologize for that. But that's the way the cookie crumbles. I didn't want anything to remain that some squirrel would grab on and make whatever use that they might. Now, whether you felt that was reasonable or not, I don't know. But it doesn't make any difference because that was my decision and mine alone. Nobody else's.

---------------------------

And as for any "confirmation" of the autopsy doctors physically searching for bullets inside President Kennedy's body, we have that confirmation in Dr. Humes' WC testimony  (at 2 H 364)....

DR. JAMES J. HUMES -- Before the arrival of Colonel Finck, we had made X-rays of the head, neck and torso of the President, and the upper portions of his major extremities, or both his upper and lower extremities. At Colonel Finck's suggestion, we then completed the X-ray examination by X-raying the President's body in toto, and those X-rays are available.

ARLEN SPECTER -- What did those X-rays disclose with respect to the possible presence of a missile in the President's body?

DR. HUMES -- They showed no evidence of a missile in the President's body at any point. And these were examined by ourselves and by the radiologist, who assisted us in this endeavor.
 

Edited October 3, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Matthew Koch]

2 hours ago, Marjan Rynkiewicz said:

Tests have shown that a ricochet of a Carcano FMJ off a pipe (eg the overhead signals below Oswald's window) fragments into....

 

Thanks for sharing Marjan..  

[David Von Pein]

4 hours ago, Karl Hilliard said:

David...You have already commented that you believe the statements of one of the country's [possibly the world's] foremost forensic pathologists is that of a buffoon...a kook...and a loon---

Do you mean Dr. Wecht?

If so, I don't think I've ever specifically referred to the former Allegheny County Medical Examiner as "a buffoon, a kook, and a loon". But, yes, I certainly disagree with Dr. Wecht about several things regarding the JFK murder case.

 

4 hours ago, Karl Hilliard said:

If there were upper torso X-rays of JFK please link to this as I am not aware.

Check out the final report of the 1968 Clark Panel....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/10/the-1968-clark-panel-report.html

Edited October 3, 2022 by David Von Pein