Convincing that Babushka Lady never took a movie film

[Greg Doudna]

These convinced me: Points #3 and #4 of this 8-minute video produced by Denis Morisette: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVdjbDIB7_8.

Point #3 starting at 4:59 shows the camera held by the Babushka Lady matches to a box camera taking still pictures. There never was any movie film camera or movie film. 

Point #4 starting at 6:03 shows that one of Beverly Oliver's central claims, in which she holds up shoes of her own and says they are the same shoes the Babushka Lady is wearing in the Allen film, is not correct. The Babushka Lady's shoes have heels (and are practical for outdoor wear, as the Babushka Lady was outdoors). But Beverly Oliver's shoes have no heels but are what are called "wedge sole" shoes. They are not the same shoes. Beverly Oliver's wedge-sole shoes give better traction or grip on a stage or indoor hardwood floor because the entire sole of the shoe is in contact with the stage or wood floor but those shoes are less suitable for outdoor wear because they wear out so quickly if worn outdoors. 

There is no mystery movie film still out there. There never was any Babushka Lady movie film. It was a box camera still photos.

Two additional points for what they are worth (and if the below are considered indecisive, they do not affect the above two).

-- From wikipedia, "Babushka Lady" with refs there: "On November 18, 1994, assassination researcher Gary Mack testified before the Assassination Records Review Board that he had recently been told by an executive in Kodak's Dallas office that a woman in her early 30s with brunette hair brought in film purported to be of the assassination scene while they were processing the Zapruder film. According to Mack, the executive said the woman explained to federal investigators already at the film processing office that she ran from Main Street across the grass to Elm Street where she stopped and snapped a photo with some people in the foreground of the presidential limousine and the Texas School Book Depository. Mack said that he was told by the Kodak executive that the photo was extremely blurry and 'virtually useless' and indicated that the woman likely went home without anyone recording her identity." Hard to say whether this is a match to the Babushka Lady or not but it could be.

-- Michael Brownlow claims Grassy Knoll witness Charles Brehm, who with his 5-year-old son was very close to the Babushka Lady, told him, Brownlow, that he, Brehm, spoke to the Babushka Lady, looked her right in the face, and that her age was ca. 40-45. "Hell no that was no 17 year old girl", Brownlow quotes Brehm as saying, at 1:22f here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaWX0ElEItU. 

 

 

[Gerry Down]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

Michael Brownlow claims Grassy Knoll witness Charles Brehm, who with his 5-year-old son was very close to the Babushka Lady, told him, Brownlow, that he, Brehm, spoke to the Babushka Lady, looked her right in the face, and that her age was ca. 40-45. "Hell no that was no 17 year old girl", Brownlow quotes Brehm as saying, at 1:22f here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaWX0ElEItU. 

 

 

It seems odd that Brownlow and Groden are such good friends in Dealey Plaza if they hold such opposing views on the Babushka lady.

[Joseph McBride]

Beverly Oliver is a fraud. The Babushka Lady can

be seen shooting a motion picture film, not still pictures; see how

she pans her camera steadily as the presidential

limousine passes her.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Joseph McBride

[Joe Bauer]

On 10/6/2022 at 1:02 AM, Joseph McBride said:

Beverly Oliver is a fraud. The Babushka Lady can

be seen shooting a motion picture film, not still pictures; see how

she pans her camera steadily as the presidential

limousine passes her.

Wonder how the true identity of the Babushka Lady could never be discovered.

You'd think "someone" would have recognized her.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Michael Griffith]

I agree. I concluded years ago that Beverly Oliver was not the Babushka Lady. 

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Joseph McBride writes (with strange paragraph breaks remmoved):

Quote

Beverly Oliver is a fraud. The Babushka Lady can be seen shooting a motion picture film, not still pictures; see how she pans her camera steadily as the presidential limousine passes her. 

I wouldn't argue with the first sentence, but the fact that the woman was panning her camera doesn't necessarily mean that she was taking a home movie.

Panning is a standard technique with still cameras too. It takes a bit of practice, and it's easy to end up with a blurred picture. This may explain the Wikipedia quote: "Mack said that he was told by the Kodak executive that the photo was extremely blurry and 'virtually useless'".

Gary Mack's comments to the ARRB include some interesting details that the Wikipedia article omits. Technicians at Kodak were asked to try to sharpen the picture, but replied that there was nothing they could do. Although the focus was "way, way off", the exposure was "terrific". It's conceivable that computer manipulation of the image, if it ever comes to light, would allow elements to be identified that were undetectable at the time by visual examination of the original slide.

Mack thought there was a good chance that the woman whose film was developed by Kodak that afternoon was the Babushka Lady. I'm not so sure. The woman at the Kodak lab apparently claimed that "she was running from Main Street up to Elm Street across the grass, realized she wasn't going to get there close enough, stopped and took a picture. In the foreground were some people standing on the south curb of Elm Street." But images of the scene, especially the slide taken by Charles Bronson at around Zapruder frame 220, contradict this account in three ways:

• The Babushka Lady can be seen to be standing at the curb, stationary, a few seconds before the presidential car arrived.
• She was easily "close enough" and in a very good position to take a photograph.
• There are no spectators between her and the presidential limousine.

A number of spectators did indeed run across the grass from Main Street towards Elm Street. Some were captured in Charles Bronson's slide. Although none of these spectators appear to be holding a camera, it is conceivable that another woman with a camera was in the area to Bronson's right, which is obscured by a pillar.

So that makes two possible missing photographs of the presidential limousine, each of them taken while the shooting was happening: the Babushka Lady's photo (or home movie) and the blurred photo taken by the woman at the Kodak lab. At least one of those images would probably include the book depository, the Dal-Tex building, or other areas of interest.

Here are Mack's comments in full:

Quote

What I have found living here and talking with people is that there are a lot of people in the Dallas area who, for one reason or another, just would prefer not to come forward. I learned a story just a few weeks ago. A retired Kodak executive remembered that while they were processing Abraham Zapruder's film out in the Dallas office out by Love Field, that a woman had come in, and this was a woman in her late 30s, a brunette, who had taken a picture at the assassination scene, and her picture was the first one out of the processor, and they were working on this  because it was quicker to do stills than it was moving film.

He didn't catch her name, but he stood next to her while she was explaining her story to some of the Federal investigators who were already there. She was running from Main Street up to Elm Street across the grass, realized she wasn't going to get there close enough, stopped and took a picture. In the foreground were some people standing on the south curb of Elm Street. The Kennedy limousine was directly behind them, directly behind the limousine was the Book Depository Building. When the picture came out of the processor, the first thing they noticed was the exposure was terrific but the focus was way, way off. It was virtually useless, and she was told that. Well, she apparently went home and whether anyone even got her name or that is unknown.

If this story is true, and I have no reason to doubt it, the man -- we sought him out, he did not seek us out, today if we can locate that slide, and this is a color slide, computer enhancement can return it literally to almost the best clarity you could have had at the time. Of course, back in those days nothing like that existed. The Kodak executive's name is Jack Harrison. Jack said they were pushing the technicians very hard to do whatever you can to sharpen this picture and approve [sic: he presumably meant 'improve'] it, and they just said, hey, there is nothing we can do.

So here is a woman with a potentially important photograph, a still photograph. What is especially interesting to me is that from the description of her position, what the picture showed, she may very well be the real Babushka Lady.

That is an area in the research community that is very controversial at this point, and without going into any great detail, I do not  believe that Beverly Oliver is the Babushka Lady, or, let me rephrase that, she certainly could be but the rest of the story is a fabrication. That is my personal belief based on the work I have done.

What has happened, though, apparently, is the story from Jack Harrison that this woman existed, she has a photograph that could have some important answers. It is probably sitting in a shoe box somewhere in her closet and she has no idea, and how do you find a woman like that. How do you get people to come forward. Maybe your work will do that.

(ARRB public hearing, Dallas, 18 Nov 1994, pp.25-26: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=145536#relPageId=25)

For Beverly Oliver's uninformative testimony, see pages 41-43 of that document.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Jeremy Bojczuk
Corrected a typo

[Vince Palamara]

It does seem very strange that the real Babushka Lady--or someone who knew her, assuming she is now deceased--has never come forward. Beverly was bold enough to write a book and appear as a consultant to the Stone movie JFK (and, of course, her character is in the movie), not to mention The Men Who Killed Kennedy and other appearances. I don't believe she was the Babushka Lady. I am just saying that it is strange that a) she took such a bold chance in staking the claim to her name and b) the real one never came forward.

[Vince Palamara]

BEVERLY OLIVER PHOTOS FROM 11/22/63: 

[Vince Palamara]

The above photos demonstrate why it is often hard to TOTALLY dismiss one as a fraud. A prime example is Roscoe White- there is the infamous photo of his wife Geneva with Ruby, White definitely was a police officer trainee [ROSCOE'S NAME IS IN VOLUME 19, PAGE 148], and his widow had the mysterious third backyard photo of LHO.