The Killing Floor

[Pat Speer]

1 minute ago, Tony Krome said:

Shelley stated that he was told not to let anyone out of the elevator. He then stated he accompanied police up the elevator, and implies that because of that, he leaves Dougherty in charge of the elevator. (you are saying passenger elevator)

Are you now saying that Shelley issued instructions to Dougherty at the freight elevator area, before Shelley moved to the passenger elevator?

No. Truly comes in. He sees Shelley and Lovelady by the phone or near the back elevator. He tells Shelley to go to the front and guard the elevator. He goes to the front and Lovelady goes back outside, where he is captured on film. Sawyer rushes in, and says he wants to go upstairs. Shelley takes him upstairs on the front elevator. But he glances down the hall and sees Dougherty coming out of the Domino room or bathroom or something. So he yells at him to come down and guard the elevator. But Dougherty doesn't understand and just goes back to work, using the west elevator. 

Maybe. We will never know. Not enough questions were asked. Not enough details were provided. I just know that Sawyer said he was taken upstairs on the front elevator by someone who worked in the building, and the only employee who said he took someone upstairs to the fourth floor was Shelley. So that puts him at the front elevator, not the back elevator, as I think most people had assumed. 

Incredibly, prior to my doing so, I don't think anyone ever looked at all the TSBD-related testimony and tried to put the pieces together. While some had written on the elevator situation, and some had written on the Adams situation, I don't think anyone had made the connection that the official story had Oswald race right past Dougherty on the fifth floor, or that Shelley and Lovelady were the two men observed by Baker, or that Shelley took Sawyers upstairs, or that Piper talked to Oswald in the Domino Room at 12:00, etc. I think people saw it as too confusing, with too many moving parts,

But I'm up to my neck in this stuff. 

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Pat, 

In Truly's own words (under oath) he swore that he both noticed and acted on "Oswald's" absence within "moments or minutes" after arriving back on the first floor with Baker. Truly did this even though he did not know where all of "his boys" were at that moment. Some were missing, and he knew that, but he was concerned with and acted only because of "Oswald."

Truly did not wait an hour - he was determined to act within "moments or minutes". And since he estimated that he and Baker had arrived back on the first floor withing five to ten minutes of their ascent, then it follows that Truly had "noticed" "Oswald's" absence by 12:40 or so. 

Long before Fritz was notified.

Even before Inspector Sawyer's infamous 12:45 suspect description call to the DPD dispatchers. 

As early as 12:40, according to his own testimony, Roy Truly was concerned only with "Oswald."

Why?

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back to the first floor, or what did you see?
Mr. TRULY. When I got back to the first floor, at first I didn't see anything except officers running around, reporters in the place. There was a regular madhouse.
Mr. BELIN. Had they sealed off the building yet, do you know?
Mr. TRULY. I am sure they had.
Mr. BELIN. Then what?
Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.
There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys.
So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there.
First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no.
Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?
Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and he said no.
So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there or not. He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said, "Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that.

I suspect his months-later testimony is not accurate as to time. The line-up etc did not occur right off the bat. It was much later. The police who rushed into the building subsequent to Baker were in pursuit of an assassin. They ran like mad throughout the building. There's no evidence anyone began taking names in the immediate aftermath. It was a half hour or so before they officially found the sniper's nest. 

It's possible, of course, that Truly did suspect Oswald within 15 minutes or so after realizing he was missing. But he certainly didn't act on it, or if he did, Fritz didn't act on it. To my recollection, there is no evidence the DPD was looking for Oswald prior to Fritz's departure from the building. More than an hour after the shooting...

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Tony Krome]

2 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Sawyer rushes in, and says he wants to go upstairs. Shelley takes him upstairs on the front elevator. But he glances down the hall and sees Dougherty coming out of the Domino room or bathroom or something. So he yells at him to come down and guard the elevator. But Dougherty doesn't understand and just goes back to work, using the west elevator. 

It was established that Sawyer exited his car circa 12:34, so we are looking at possibly 12:35 when Sawyer finds himself by the passenger elevator with the mystery man.

You have Dougherty moving from the bathroom to the west elevator at the point where Shelley yells out to him to come on over and guard the passenger elevator.

That would be a 100ft shout out to Dougherty through all sorts of obstacles on the 1st floor. 

In any event, you now have Dougherty ignoring Shelley, to enter the west elevator at circa 12:35. He then has to make the 30 second trip up to the 6th where he begins to pick orders. At the shortest possible time, we must closing in on 12:37

He then has to re-enter the elevator and take it down to the 5th, where he begins picking orders. We are now at the time where Baker is talking to Sawyer on the 4th floor, one floor below Dougherty.

I can't see how the noise Dougherty heard was generated by Baker/Truly above him.

 

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

Jarman and Norman took the west elevator up to the fifth 20 minutes or so before the shooting. I believe they were non-committal as to whether they left the gate up. But when they got there the east elevator was supposedly up on the sixth. So it seems possible Jarman and Norman left the gate up so they would be guaranteed access for their trip back down. I mean. most people used the front elevator. As far as they knew they were the only ones on the upper floors. So it only makes sense that they would not bring down the gate and lock the elevator on their floor. 

But we don't know any of this stuff because the DPD and FBI etc either failed to comprehend the importance of the elevator or refused to actually investigate this issue. I don't think there's any memo or report prior to March or April in which the elevator situation was even discussed. The supposed story is that Williams took the east up to the sixth, and then the fifth, where it was locked in place. And that Jarman and Norman took the west up to the fifth but didn't lock it in place. They need this to be so they can explain how Dougherty got back upstairs to go back to work. So he takes it up to the sixth and then the fifth...where he supposedly is at the time of the shooting. But here's one of the massive HOLES in the official story. They then have him standing by the elevator on the fifth for two minutes or so after the shots, when his words suggest he came down n a matter of seconds after hearing the loud sound above him. And this two minutes or so is lethal to the official story, IMO. The west elevator is like 25 feet from the stairwell Oswald supposedly came down on--the stairwell that opens up into the room. IOW, the official story has Oswald run right past Dougherty. So why was Dougherty never asked if he saw or heard Oswald run past him? When I put this together I realized that the whole Dougherty on the fifth floor at the time of the shots story was a concoction and not a conclusion. The relevant questions before one could come to such a conclusion were just never asked. 

P.S. As the last known movement of the west elevator prior to the shooting was 20 minutes or so before the shooting by Jarman and Norman, it remains possible someone called or took this elevator up to the sixth in that period. As I recall Williams was not asked if he saw this elevator when he took the east elevator down. As far as Truly, I don't put much stock in his claim both elevators were on the same floor. I doubt someone standing on the first floor could quickly glimpse two elevators from below and determine for sure if they were both four floors up, or if one was five floors up. But even if he's correct, it just means that the shooter--after tossing the assassination rifle near the stairwell--ran down the stairs to the fifth, and then took the open west elevator on down. 

Pat,

This is a little off topic but:

I suspect you have already thought this through, but if (as you've speculated elsewhere) Shelley and Lovelady arrived back in the TSBD from the west entrance within a minute or so and if they saw Eddie Piper walking from the front toward the middle of the first floor, then isn't it possible that Baker and Truly did not arrive back at the freight elevators quite as quickly as we've been led to believe? 

(I'm not suggesting the Baker/Truly timeline is grossly in error here, merely that it may be a little longer, perhaps because it is incomplete.)

[Gene Kelly]

Pat

On your question about the timing, my source was Roy Truly's May 14, 1964, WC testimony:

BALL. Tell me about how many minutes you think it was from the time you obtained the address of Lee Oswald until you told Captain Fritz the name and address? TRULY. I think it was immediately … after I called to the warehouse and got his name and address in Irving, I turned around and walked over and told Chief Lumpkin. And I remember Chief Lumpkin talking to two or three officers and I stepped back, and he went ahead and told them a few things-it could have been 2-4 minutes.  And then he came to me and said, “All right, let’s go up and see Captain Fritz and tell him this.”

BALL. You have no exact memory as to the time you discovered he was not there? TRULY. It was 15 or 20 minutes after the shots were fired, but after retracing my trip to the roof and the time delay and back, I would have to say that it was farther along in the day than I had believed, so it could have been 1 or 1:05 or something like that.

When Truly returned from the roof, he quickly notices that Oswald is missing, calls the warehouse to get Oswald's Irving address, informs Deputy Chief George Lumpkin (who was also a Captain in the Jack Crichton's 488th Military Intelligence Detachment), and seems in quite a hurry to get to the 6th floor to tell Captain Fritz:

BALL. Now, what did you tell Chief Lumpkin when you came down from the roof of the building?  TRULY. When I noticed this boy was missing, I told Chief Lumpkin that, “We have a man here that’s missing.” I said, “It may not mean anything, but he isn’t here.” I first called down to the other warehouse and had Mr. Akin pull the application of the boy so I could get-quickly get his address in Irving and his general description, so I could be more accurate … the only one I noticed at that time.

He didn't make a check of all of his employees ... his focus is on Oswald: 

BALL. Did you make a check of your employees afterwards?  TRULY. No, no; not complete. No, I just saw the group of the employees over there on the floor and I noticed this boy wasn’t with them. With no thought in my mind except that I had seen him a short time before in the building, I noticed he wasn’t there … (10 or 12 minutes earlier, in the lunchroom).  I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him around and he said “No.”

This all appears to have happened in the first 20-30 minutes after the shots rang out.

Gene

[Paul Jolliffe]

28 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

It was established that Sawyer exited his car circa 12:34, so we are looking at possibly 12:35 when Sawyer finds himself by the passenger elevator with the mystery man.

You have Dougherty moving from the bathroom to the west elevator at the point where Shelley yells out to him to come on over and guard the passenger elevator.

That would be a 100ft shout out to Dougherty through all sorts of obstacles on the 1st floor. 

In any event, you now have Dougherty ignoring Shelley, to enter the west elevator at circa 12:35. He then has to make the 30 second trip up to the 6th where he begins to pick orders. At the shortest possible time, we must closing in on 12:37

He then has to re-enter the elevator and take it down to the 5th, where he begins picking orders. We are now at the time where Baker is talking to Sawyer on the 4th floor, one floor below Dougherty.

I can't see how the noise Dougherty heard was generated by Baker/Truly above him.

 

 

Tony,

I am not so sure about that. You may be right but if the "backfire" heard by Dougherty (and assumed by the FBI the DPD, the Warren Commission and everyone else to be a shot) was really made by Baker and Truly on the roof, then the timing might work.

I don't think Baker and Truly could have arrived on the roof before 12:35. If they spent a minute or so poking their heads over the wall and looking around, then a loud "bang" at 12:36/37 seems plausible to me. 

Whatever else Dougherty was, he was adamant about his own location when he heard the mysterious noise - he was just west of the 5th floor freight elevator. A loud bang at that time seems to fit the probable movements of Baker and Truly. 

Pat is correct that much of this should have been cleared up decades ago, but we all know that the authorities were determined NOT to investigate. Instead, they had to reach the only politically acceptable "solution", namely LHO did it all by himself for reasons known solely to him.

Evidence be damned. 

[Paul Jolliffe]

1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

On a Saturday?

Dougherty's testimony is full of contradictions and oddities. He comes off as a simple, easily confused man. 

But what is curious is this exchange between Ball and Dougherty:

 

Mr. Ball: Did you see any strangers in the building that day?

Mr. Dougherty: No, sir.

Mr. Ball: Did you ever see Lee Oswald carry any sort of large package?

Mr. Dougherty: Well, I didn't, but some of the fellows said they did.

Mr. Ball: Who said that?

Mr. Dougherty: Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw him carrying a fairy good-sized package.

Mr. Ball: When did Shelley tell you that?

Mr. Dougherty: Well, it was - the day after it happened. 

 

Tony, since Ball had yet to depose Shelley, one might think that an honest investigator would ask a witness to confirm or refute an alleged statement indicating the possible guilt of "Oswald."

But, for reasons I've previously explained, Ball neither would nor could ask Shelley about it. (It was a lie, Ball knew it was a lie, and if Shelley then lied about it under oath, not only would Shelley have perjured himself, but Ball might be guilty of suborning perjury. No, Balls only possible solution was to ignore Dougherty's statement and ask Shelley nothing about it. So that's exactly what Ball did. Nothing.)

Why did Shelley lie to Dougherty?

Because Dougherty needed to be "convinced" of "Oswald's" guilt. Especially if Dougherty had accidentally witnessed the escape of one of the conspirators from the upper floors. 

 

 

[Gene Kelly]

Joe

Regarding your question about Shelley, John Armstong's website has a page called "Escape form the 6th Floor" where he posits that Bill Shelley (Oswald's supervisor) may have traveled to Louisiana in August 1963 and been in contact with Harvey Oswald in New Orleans. When Oswald was passing out FPCC literature, in front of Clay Shaw's International Trade Mart, a man who looks very much like Shelley was standing close to Oswald. There is no proof this man was Bill Shelley, but the physical resemblance is unmistakable.

Armstrong points out that Oswald himself said that he was "out with Bill Shelley in front" during the shooting (recorded on handwritten notes by Capt. Fritz and FBI agent Jim Hosty). Apparently, Oswald expected his supervisor and CIA contact (Shelley) to confirm that he and Oswald were together during the shooting.  But Oswald did not realize that Shelley was part of a plan to make sure that he quickly left the TSBD shortly after shots were fired ... a hasty departure that would appear as though he was evading capture. When Shelley was later questioned about Oswald's whereabouts after the shooting, Shelley denied being with Oswald.  Armstong believes that it was also possible that it was Shelley who instructed Oswald to leave the TSBD, instructed him to board the #433 bus, and instructed him to meet a contact at the Texas Theater. 

Armstrong adds more suspicion of Shelley by suggesting that he might have orchestrated other suspicious activities in the TSBD. It appears the electricity in the TSBD was turned off as the escort car turned from Main St. onto Houston St., less than one minute before shots were fired at the President. The electrical panels were located on the back side of the building on the first floor, close to the domino room and close to Bill Shelley's office. Roy Truly probably knew Shelley was responsible for turning off the electricity, which is why Truly ignored the passenger elevator, failed to look at the electrical panels, and said nothing about the two men he encountered (almost certainly Shelley and Lovelady). Officer Marrion Baker was asked by Warren Commissioner Senator Cooper if he saw anyone else while in the building, (other than Oswald and Truly) and Baker replied:

"On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us." 

David Belin knew there were two unidentified "white men" at the back of the TSBD, only one minute after the shooting. But when Belin interviewed Roy Truly a few weeks later, he never questioned Truly about these two men, nor did Truly say anything about these two men.  Neither Baker nor Truly provided any information to the Commission as to the two unknown "white men" seen at the back of the TSBD within two minutes of the shooting. Shelley and Lovelady's April 1964 testimony was accepted by the Commission, which concluded that Shelley and Lovelady were outside of the TSBD during and after the shooting, and only returned to the building 10 minutes later. 

Before running up the wooden stairs with Officer Baker, Truly told Bill Shelley not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway, as testified before the Warren Commission:

"Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway...."

Only one minute after shots were fired, Armstong asks what possible, legitimate reason could Shelley and Lovelady have for being at the rear of the building?  Notably, the electricity was turned back on when these two men were on the first floor near the electrical panels. Finally, Shelly was one of the building employees who later identified Oswald for the police when he was brought into the DPD station.  The picture below of an individual in New Orleans with Oswald during the leaflet charade bears an uncanny resemblance to Shelly. 

Gene

[Paul Jolliffe]

32 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

Joe

Regarding your question about Shelley, John Armstong's website has a page called "Escape form the 6th Floor" where he posits that Bill Shelley (Oswald's supervisor) may have traveled to Louisiana in August 1963 and been in contact with Harvey Oswald in New Orleans. When Oswald was passing out FPCC literature, in front of Clay Shaw's International Trade Mart, a man who looks very much like Shelley was standing close to Oswald. There is no proof this man was Bill Shelley, but the physical resemblance is unmistakable.

Armstrong points out that Oswald himself said that he was "out with Bill Shelley in front" during the shooting (recorded on handwritten notes by Capt. Fritz and FBI agent Jim Hosty). Apparently, Oswald expected his supervisor and CIA contact (Shelley) to confirm that he and Oswald were together during the shooting.  But Oswald did not realize that Shelley was part of a plan to make sure that he quickly left the TSBD shortly after shots were fired ... a hasty departure that would appear as though he was evading capture. When Shelley was later questioned about Oswald's whereabouts after the shooting, Shelley denied being with Oswald.  Armstong believes that it was also possible that it was Shelley who instructed Oswald to leave the TSBD, instructed him to board the #433 bus, and instructed him to meet a contact at the Texas Theater. 

Armstrong adds more suspicion of Shelley by suggesting that he might have orchestrated other suspicious activities in the TSBD. It appears the electricity in the TSBD was turned off as the escort car turned from Main St. onto Houston St., less than one minute before shots were fired at the President. The electrical panels were located on the back side of the building on the first floor, close to the domino room and close to Bill Shelley's office. Roy Truly probably knew Shelley was responsible for turning off the electricity, which is why Truly ignored the passenger elevator, failed to look at the electrical panels, and said nothing about the two men he encountered (almost certainly Shelley and Lovelady). Officer Marrion Baker was asked by Warren Commissioner Senator Cooper if he saw anyone else while in the building, (other than Oswald and Truly) and Baker replied:

"On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us." 

David Belin knew there were two unidentified "white men" at the back of the TSBD, only one minute after the shooting. But when Belin interviewed Roy Truly a few weeks later, he never questioned Truly about these two men, nor did Truly say anything about these two men.  Neither Baker nor Truly provided any information to the Commission as to the two unknown "white men" seen at the back of the TSBD within two minutes of the shooting. Shelley and Lovelady's April 1964 testimony was accepted by the Commission, which concluded that Shelley and Lovelady were outside of the TSBD during and after the shooting, and only returned to the building 10 minutes later. 

Before running up the wooden stairs with Officer Baker, Truly told Bill Shelley not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway, as testified before the Warren Commission:

"Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway...."

Only one minute after shots were fired, Armstong asks what possible, legitimate reason could Shelley and Lovelady have for being at the rear of the building?  Notably, the electricity was turned back on when these two men were on the first floor near the electrical panels. Finally, Shelly was one of the building employees who later identified Oswald for the police when he was brought into the DPD station.  The picture below of an individual in New Orleans with Oswald during the leaflet charade bears an uncanny resemblance to Shelly. 

Gene

Gene,

I too have long been suspicious of William Shelley for all the reasons listed above.

However, I doubt that Billy Nolan Lovelady was a witting conspirator. I believe (but I can't prove) that he was naive, gullible and used by Shelley.

Lovelady was harassed by unnamed outsiders every day for the rest of his life.

How do I know?

Because his wife said so and the New York Times quoted her:

A Look‐Alike of Oswald Is Reported Dead at 41 - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

What is especially curious to me is the man who was the "lawyer who spoke for the family", Kenneth Brooten.

Who was Kenneth Brooten?

He was the acting chief counsel for the HSCA. (Mr. Lovelady died in Colorado at the age of 41 in January of 1979, just as the HSCA published its findings. No cause of death listed.)

Mr. Brooten started his legal career as an assistant to several congressmen between 1962 and 1967. He was an insider. 

Kenneth Edward Brooten Edit Profile

lawyer

Kenneth Edward Brooten, American Lawyer. Bar: Florida, District of Columbia, United States District Court (northern, middle and southern districts) Florida, United States.Dist. Court District of Columbia, United States Tax Court, United States Court Appeals (5th, 9th, 11th and District of Columbia circs.), Supreme Court of the United States Court, Trial Counsel Her Majesty's Government of United Kingdom.

 

Assistant to several congressmen, United States House of Representatives, Washington, 1962-1967; administrative assistant, VA Center Office, Washington, 1967; administrative officer, Veterans Administration Hospital., Gainesville, Florida, 1967-1972; partner, Carter & Brooten, P.A., Gainesville, Florida, 1975-1978; partner, Brooten & Fleisher, Chartered, Washington and Gainesville, Florida, 1978-1980; private practice,, Washington and Gainesville, 1980-1986; private practice,, Washington, 1987-1988; private practice,, Washington and Orlando, Florida, 1988-1991; private practice,, Washington and Winter Park, Florida, since 1991. Permanent special counsel, acting chief counsel, director Select Committee Assassinations United States House of Representatives, 1976-1977. Counsel Her Majesty's Government of United Kingdom (in the United States).

So why was a powerful bigwig speaking on behalf of the family of a nobody, reassuring the world through the NYT that there was nothing else to ask of or say about Billy Lovelady?

Did Mr. Lovelady's untimely demise have anything to do with whatever he saw back in 1963?

 

[Pat Speer]

4 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

"Retarded" is not the way Truly put it. But clearly Truly wanted to convey that all was not quite right with Dougherty.

Why?

Well, if (IF) Dougherty really did come face-to-face with an escaping assassin on the first floor when the west freight elevator opened (before Dougherty went back upstairs), then Dougherty's credibility would need massaging. 

Especially since Dougherty told Ball in his WC testimony that Shelley told Dougherty that Shelley had seen "Oswald" that morning with a large package in his hands. Of course, no one ever saw "Oswald" with a large package - Shelley lied to Dougherty. 

And the kicker is that when Ball questioned Shelley later, Ball DID NOT ASK SHELLEY ONE THING ABOUT THAT SHELLEY'S LIE TO DOUGHERTY!

So Joe, tell me: why did Shelley lie to Dougherty and why didn't Ball dare ask about that lie?

Here is Roy Truly's sworn description about Dougherty:

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us a little bit about Jack Dougherty?
Mr. TRULY. Jack Dougherty has been working for us 12 or 14 years. Until we moved into this building, he has been mostly in our State Department, the building at 1917 North Houston. He would fill orders for--that called for many cartons of books on a three-textbook-order basis to the various schools in Texas. And he seemed to be intelligent and smart and a hard worker. The main thing is he just worked all the time.
I have never had any occasion to have any hard words for Jack. A few times he would get a little bit---maybe do a little something wrong, and I would mention it to him, and he would just go to pieces--not anything--but anything the rest of the day or the next day would not be right. [Deletion.] He is a great big husky fellow. I think he is 39 years old. He has never been married. He has no interest in women. He gets flustered, has a small word for it, at times. He has never had any trouble. He is a good, loyal, hardworking employee. He always has been.
Mr. BELIN. Would you _consider him of average intelligence?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. I think what is wrong with him mostly is his emotional makeup. I would say that for the work he is doing, he is of average intelligence.

Here is Dougherty's own testimony to the Warren Commission. Note how disjointed and confused Dougherty is about even the simplest things. It's worth reading in full:

History Matters Archive - Warren Commission Hearings, Volume VI, pg (history-matters.com)

 

The much-belated testimony of the witnesses is only part of the story. 

This comes from the 12-7-63 report of the Secret Service on Oswald's co-workers. 

"When Dougherty was interviewed, he seemed to be very confused about times and places. Mr. Truly furnished the information that, although Dougherty is a very good employee and a hard worker, he is mentally retarded and has difficulty in remembering facts, such as dates, times, places, and has been especially confused since the assassination. Dougherty was therefore not questioned further." (CD87, p781).

[Joe Bauer]

Who described Dougherty as "retarded?"

And why?

I just read Dougherty's WC testimony.

Shades of Helen Markham.

Not exact quotes:

You said you heard a rifle shot above you? JD "yes."

Asked again JD says no I didn't say that. I said backfire.

You went to the 6th and 5th floors before lunch? Yes.

You went to the 5th and 6th floor after lunch? Yes.

JD says "yes" to several questions...then when asked the same one later he says "No?"

I can understand why Jack Dougherty didn't communicate with Oswald.

[Tony Krome]

5 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

a loud "bang" at 12:36/37 seems plausible to me. 

You can work Sawyer backwards through the timeline. He's back in his car on the radio at circa 12:40. Before that he was discussing security with police near the front doors. Before that he rode the passenger elevator down from the 4th floor. And finally before that, he was chatting with Baker in the North/West 4th floor corner of the TSBD.

[Gene Kelly]

Paul

I agree that Lovelady was not a witting conspirator. Not only was he naive, gullible and used by Shelley ... so apparently was Oswald.

In following this thread, and digging into the 2nd floor encounter, it really opened up a lot for me.  It shines an unfavorable light upon both Roy Truly and Bill Shelley (neither of whom I knew much about).  For one, Truly wasn't just a manager; he was a member of the Board of Directors of the TSBD and had been part of this organization for a long time (so he had to know what was going on behind the scenes).  Roy Truly took the infamous call from Ruth Paine to hire Oswald, and later lied about the fictitious 2nd floor encounter ... a story that Officer Marion Baker was unable to keep straight.  Shelley also changed his story several times about where he was after the shooting ... but he appears to have killed the building power temporarily, 'guarded' the elevator, got Oswald out of the building and then flagged him as missing to Truly, and finally identified Oswald for the police when he was brought into the DPD station.   

I encourage you to read William Weston's April 2020 article in Kennedys and King about the strange goings on at the TSBD. He references a Jerry Rose article, “Important to Hold that Man” that challenges Oswald being singled out, since there were at least 14 people missing from the building at the time (and they would not return until 1:30 pm). And Weston chases down the so-called Glaze letters, written by a Lubbock journalist (Elzie Dean Glaze) who interviewed Shelley, where he allegedly claimed to have been an intelligence officer during World War II and thereafter joined the CIA. 

Not only was Lovelady harassed, so apparently was Roy Truly, who according to Jim Marrs (in Crossfire) was, up to the time of his death in 1985, continuously frightened by "federal authorities." Truly's wife Mildred refused to talk about the assassination even with members of her own family. 

Gene

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, Gene Kelly said:

Paul

I agree that Lovelady was not a witting conspirator. Not only was he naive, gullible and used by Shelley ... so apparently was Oswald.

In following this thread, and digging into the 2nd floor encounter, it really opened up a lot for me.  It shines an unfavorable light upon both Roy Truly and Bill Shelley (neither of whom I knew much about).  For one, Truly wasn't just a manager; he was a member of the Board of Directors of the TSBD and had been part of this organization for a long time (so he had to know what was going on behind the scenes).  Roy Truly took the infamous call from Ruth Paine to hire Oswald, and later lied about the fictitious 2nd floor encounter ... a story that Officer Marion Baker was unable to keep straight.  Shelley also changed his story several times about where he was after the shooting ... but he appears to have killed the building power temporarily, 'guarded' the elevator, got Oswald out of the building and then flagged him as missing to Truly, and finally identified Oswald for the police when he was brought into the DPD station.   

I encourage you to read William Weston's April 2020 article in Kennedys and King about the strange goings on at the TSBD. He references a Jerry Rose article, “Important to Hold that Man” that challenges Oswald being singled out, since there were at least 14 people missing from the building at the time (and they would not return until 1:30 pm). And Weston chases down the so-called Glaze letters, written by a Lubbock journalist (Elzie Dean Glaze) who interviewed Shelley, where he allegedly claimed to have been an intelligence officer during World War II and thereafter joined the CIA. 

Not only was Lovelady harassed, so apparently was Roy Truly, who according to Jim Marrs (in Crossfire) was, up to the time of his death in 1985, continuously frightened by "federal authorities." Truly's wife Mildred refused to talk about the assassination even with members of her own family. 

Gene

Don't forget Truly and Shelley were handling rifles on the Wednesday. And where was Oswald at the time? He was right there, so close he could hear their conversation.

Oswald reported this to police on Friday. I'm sure even DVP would give Oswald some credit for that.

So if one suspects Truly and Shelley, what was the intention of the Wednesday gathering at the will-call counter?

[Ron Bulman]

36 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

Paul

I agree that Lovelady was not a witting conspirator. Not only was he naive, gullible and used by Shelley ... so apparently was Oswald.

In following this thread, and digging into the 2nd floor encounter, it really opened up a lot for me.  It shines an unfavorable light upon both Roy Truly and Bill Shelley (neither of whom I knew much about).  For one, Truly wasn't just a manager; he was a member of the Board of Directors of the TSBD and had been part of this organization for a long time (so he had to know what was going on behind the scenes).  Roy Truly took the infamous call from Ruth Paine to hire Oswald, and later lied about the fictitious 2nd floor encounter ... a story that Officer Marion Baker was unable to keep straight.  Shelley also changed his story several times about where he was after the shooting ... but he appears to have killed the building power temporarily, 'guarded' the elevator, got Oswald out of the building and then flagged him as missing to Truly, and finally identified Oswald for the police when he was brought into the DPD station.   

I encourage you to read William Weston's April 2020 article in Kennedys and King about the strange goings on at the TSBD. He references a Jerry Rose article, “Important to Hold that Man” that challenges Oswald being singled out, since there were at least 14 people missing from the building at the time (and they would not return until 1:30 pm). And Weston chases down the so-called Glaze letters, written by a Lubbock journalist (Elzie Dean Glaze) who interviewed Shelley, where he allegedly claimed to have been an intelligence officer during World War II and thereafter joined the CIA. 

Not only was Lovelady harassed, so apparently was Roy Truly, who according to Jim Marrs (in Crossfire) was, up to the time of his death in 1985, continuously frightened by "federal authorities." Truly's wife Mildred refused to talk about the assassination even with members of her own family. 

Gene

Great post Gene.  You've summarized concisely much of what I've read over the years and more.  

Which leads to my speculation.  Truly gave someone a key to the TSBD.  Or Shelly had one and let them in with his approval.  Minimum the night before.  More likely well before.  They cased the place, planed both infiltration and exfiltration.  Maybe even a practice run say early the Sunday morning before.  The Carcano brought in the night before? There were reportedly persons practicing shooting over the fence on the grassy knoll an evening or two before the assassination if I remember right.  I believe the planners of JFK's Murder had access to the TSBD beforehand.

Reasonable speculation?  Based on facts?