The Killing Floor

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Great post Gene.  You've summarized concisely much of what I've read over the years and more.  

Which leads to my speculation.  Truly gave someone a key to the TSBD.  Or Shelly had one and let them in with his approval.  Minimum the night before.  More likely well before.  They cased the place, planed both infiltration and exfiltration.  Maybe even a practice run say early the Sunday morning before.  The Carcano brought in the night before? There were reportedly persons practicing shooting over the fence on the grassy knoll an evening or two before the assassination if I remember right.  I believe the planners of JFK's Murder had access to the TSBD beforehand.

Reasonable speculation?  Based on facts?

I may have mentioned this already but there was a security service that patrolled at night that had keys to the building. As I recall there was no follow-up to determine if any of the keys had been copied or any of the keys were missing. 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

I may have mentioned this already but there was a security service that patrolled at night that had keys to the building. As I recall there was no follow-up to determine if any of the keys had been copied or any of the keys were missing. 

PS-

That fact, and the un-searched publisher's offices in the TSBD, are two interesting points. 

Pure speculation, but someone could hide a weapon in the publisher's offices, and then remove the weapon later after business hours. 

[Pat Speer]

9 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

PS-

That fact, and the un-searched publisher's offices in the TSBD, are two interesting points. 

Pure speculation, but someone could hide a weapon in the publisher's offices, and then remove the weapon later after business hours. 

Absolutely. Although many LN sources claim the depository was searched from top to bottom, this is wishful thinking. I'm fairly certain the search stopped the moment a rifle was found near the stairs...at around 1:25. By the time Day returned from his office (roughly 2:45 to 3:05), moreover, everyone but his underlings on the crime scene search section had left--and those guys were just taking pictures, and drawing maps of the box arrangement. Apparently, a thorough search of the building was never performed. 

[Benjamin Cole]

52 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Absolutely. Although many LN sources claim the depository was searched from top to bottom, this is wishful thinking. I'm fairly certain the search stopped the moment a rifle was found near the stairs...at around 1:25. By the time Day returned from his office (roughly 2:45 to 3:05), moreover, everyone but his underlings on the crime scene search section had left--and those guys were just taking pictures, and drawing maps of the box arrangement. Apparently, a thorough search of the building was never performed. 

I wish I had a cite but evidently one of Ruby's former girls was working in one of the publisher's offices on 11/22. Probably nothing, as downtown Dallas was small community back then, and everyone seemed to know everyone. 

But, it highlights the possibility of stashing a weapon. 

At the risk of sounding melodramatic, a credenza could have a false bottom, even if the offices were searched....

 

[Gene Kelly]

Ron

It seems that, when it comes to the Book Depository and its occupants, anything is possible.  In the April 2020 Weston article in Kennedys and King, Carolyn Arnold, a secretary for Ochus Campbell (VP of the Depository), told a friend in 1994 that she had been, and still was, terrified. She said that “there is a whole lot more to tell about the TSBD than what has been published ... that the whole building should be suspected as more or less of a ‘safe base’ to operate from that day in November 1963.”

The Texas School Book Depository (whose auspicious owner was D. H. Byrd, of Civil Air Patrol fame) had only occupied the building at 411 Elm Street for a few months prior to the assassination, moving into a new location in the summer of 1963.  Prior to this time, the building was occupied by a wholesale grocery company. Weston and others allege that the TSBD may have been used for smuggling activities and arms shipments (hence the various rifle stories and sightings) for right-wing groups and Cuban exiles.  There is an interesting February 2006 EF thread begun by Weston called "Spiders Web", where he posits that Depository and book company executives used schoolbooks to disguise shipments of firearms and narcotics. 

Gene

[Paul Jolliffe]

19 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

You can work Sawyer backwards through the timeline. He's back in his car on the radio at circa 12:40. Before that he was discussing security with police near the front doors. Before that he rode the passenger elevator down from the 4th floor. And finally before that, he was chatting with Baker in the North/West 4th floor corner of the TSBD.

Tony,

You make a good point, but we do agree that Baker was up on the roof of the TSBD with Truly, right?

If so, then I don't see how Baker could have been up there much before 12:35. After all, by the WC's own admission, the (supposed) Baker/"Oswald" confrontation could not have completed before 12:32. Baker and Truly still had to run up three more flights of stairs with a momentary pause on each one as Baker surveyed the immediate area, no matter how briefly. Baker and Truly still had to take the 5th floor elevator to the 7th floor and then ascend to the roof. They then had to surveil the roof, peek over and make a quick check for any possible hiding places, and then leave. 

Are you saying that was completed before 12:36?

How much less time? 12:35, maybe?

And if it took more time, then how on his way back down could Baker have run into Sawyer on the 4th floor in time for Sawyer to get back down to his cruiser by 12:40 or so?

I still think that Pat Speer's hypothesis is very possible - that the loud noise heard by Dougherty ("backfire") was not a rifle shot but was actually a noise made by Baker and Truly on the roof. 

[Paul Jolliffe]

9 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Ron

It seems that, when it comes to the Book Depository and its occupants, anything is possible.  In the April 2020 Weston article in Kennedys and King, Carolyn Arnold, a secretary for Ochus Campbell (VP of the Depository), told a friend in 1994 that she had been, and still was, terrified. She said that “there is a whole lot more to tell about the TSBD than what has been published ... that the whole building should be suspected as more or less of a ‘safe base’ to operate from that day in November 1963.”

The Texas School Book Depository (whose auspicious owner was D. H. Byrd, of Civil Air Patrol fame) had only occupied the building at 411 Elm Street for a few months prior to the assassination, moving into a new location in the summer of 1963.  Prior to this time, the building was occupied by a wholesale grocery company. Weston and others allege that the TSBD may have been used for smuggling activities and arms shipments (hence the various rifle stories and sightings) for right-wing groups and Cuban exiles.  There is an interesting February 2006 EF thread begun by Weston called "Spiders Web", where he posits that Depository and book company executives used schoolbooks to disguise shipments of firearms and narcotics. 

Gene

Gene,

I was a subscriber to Jerry Rose's "The Third Decade" and to his "The Fourth Decade". I read both of Weston's original articles back then as well as the 2020 follow-up article in "Kennedy's and King." (And I listened to Len Osanic's interview with William Weston on Black Op Radio.)

I agree with all those who suspect that the TSBD at 411 Elm was more than a mere schoolbook depository. And, it may well have been a CIA safe site to stash clandestine weapons and drugs, both coming in and out of the country.

OK.

But on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, how could the conspirators be sure that honest cops/investigators/employees etc. would confine a post-assassination search to only those boxes and areas that were "safe"?

Guns and drugs could have been in big boxes before the assassination on the sixth floor, but surely there were not any in the boxes the afternoon of the assassination, were there?

After all, the accidental discovery of either rifles or drugs in schoolbook boxes would raise enormous alarm. How could that have been contained?

While weapons and/or drugs may have been secretly stored there before the assassination, I think it is very unlikely that any contraband was actually present in any of the big boxes on that Friday afternoon. Too much of a risk.

 

Getting back to our man, Roy Truly, William Manchester wrote that Truly "disapproved strongly of Kennedy's policies abroad and believed he was a "race-mixer" at home."

Death of a President, page 49: The Death Of A President : Manchester, William : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[Tony Krome]

3 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Tony,

You make a good point, but we do agree that Baker was up on the roof of the TSBD with Truly, right?

If so, then I don't see how Baker could have been up there much before 12:35. After all, by the WC's own admission, the (supposed) Baker/"Oswald" confrontation could not have completed before 12:32. Baker and Truly still had to run up three more flights of stairs with a momentary pause on each one as Baker surveyed the immediate area, no matter how briefly. Baker and Truly still had to take the 5th floor elevator to the 7th floor and then ascend to the roof. They then had to surveil the roof, peek over and make a quick check for any possible hiding places, and then leave. 

Are you saying that was completed before 12:36?

How much less time? 12:35, maybe?

And if it took more time, then how on his way back down could Baker have run into Sawyer on the 4th floor in time for Sawyer to get back down to his cruiser by 12:40 or so?

I still think that Pat Speer's hypothesis is very possible - that the loud noise heard by Dougherty ("backfire") was not a rifle shot but was actually a noise made by Baker and Truly on the roof. 

Previously in this thread, I mentioned circa 12:38 for the Baker/Sawyer meeting. The time would relatively be an even split between Sawyer exiting his car and re-entering his car.

Pat has Shelley calling to Dougherty to guard the passenger elevator at the point where Sawyer confronts the mystery man. (who Pat believes is Shelley)

So Shelley calls out at circa 12:35 as Dougherty is walking to the west elevator.

Major problem here is how on earth could Dougherty believe everything was so normal on the 1st floor, 5 minutes after the assassination, that he intended to start picking orders?

That aside, effectively, in Pat's hypothesis, both Shelley/Sawyer and Dougherty would be riding their respective elevators upwards at the same time. Dougherty to the 6th, Shelley/Sawyer to the 4th.

The above destroys Shelley's affidavit by the way. Dougherty was not "left to guard the elevator"

So by the time Dougherty reaches the 6th, Sawyer is moving across the 4th floor, noting the ladies, the open space etc.

Dougherty begins to pick orders on the 6th. If we have the Shelley call out at 12:35, we must be reaching 12:37 by the time Dougherty takes the ride up 6 floors, and actually completes picking orders on the 6th.

Then Dougherty re-enters the elevator and descends to the 5th to again pick orders, at a time where it must be close to the time where Baker meets Sawyer on the 4th at circa 12:38.

To subscribe to this hypothesis, not only is Shelley's affidavit incorrect, but also what he told the FBI. The hypothesis demands that Shelley's estimation of 10 minutes to enter the west entrance was out by more than 10 times.

 

 

 

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

6 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Previously in this thread, I mentioned circa 12:38 for the Baker/Sawyer meeting. The time would relatively be an even split between Sawyer exiting his car and re-entering his car.

Pat has Shelley calling to Dougherty to guard the passenger elevator at the point where Sawyer confronts the mystery man. (who Pat believes is Shelley)

So Shelley calls out at circa 12:35 as Dougherty is walking to the west elevator.

Major problem here is how on earth could Dougherty believe everything was so normal on the 1st floor, 5 minutes after the assassination, that he intended to start picking orders?

That aside, effectively, in Pat's hypothesis, both Shelley/Sawyer and Dougherty would be riding their respective elevators upwards at the same time. Dougherty to the 6th, Shelley/Sawyer to the 4th.

The above destroys Shelley's affidavit by the way. Dougherty was not "left to guard the elevator"

So by the time Dougherty reaches the 6th, Sawyer is moving across the 4th floor, noting the ladies, the open space etc.

Dougherty begins to pick orders on the 6th. If we have the Shelley call out at 12:35, we must be reaching 12:37 by the time Dougherty takes the ride up 6 floors, and actually completes picking orders on the 6th.

Then Dougherty re-enters the elevator and descends to the 5th to again pick orders, at a time where it must be close to the time where Baker meets Sawyer on the 4th at circa 12:38.

To subscribe to this hypothesis, not only is Shelley's affidavit incorrect, but also what he told the FBI. The hypothesis demands that Shelley's estimation of 10 minutes to enter the west entrance was out by more than 10 times.

 

 

 

 

Interesting analysis and could be correct.

One question: I thought Shelley and Sawyer went up not on the freight elevator, but the passenger elevator on the east side of the first floor?

Have I been wrong about that?

[Paul Jolliffe]

2 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Interesting analysis and could be correct.

One question: I thought Shelley and Sawyer went up not on the freight elevator, but the passenger elevator on the east side of the first floor?

Have I been wrong about that?

Never mind. You and I agree that Sawyer went up the passenger elevator.

But do we agree that Dougherty heard some kind of loud noise as soon as he arrived on the fifth floor, and that could not have been a gun shot?

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Never mind. You and I agree that Sawyer went up the passenger elevator.

But do we agree that Dougherty heard some kind of loud noise as soon as he arrived on the fifth floor, and that could not have been a gun shot?

Yes to Sawyer on the passenger elevator.

Dougherty says he heard one noise. The WC and Dougherty both believe he was on the 5th floor at the time of the assassination.

I involved myself in a discussion with Pat to explore the possibility that Dougherty heard the noise after the assassination.

At this point, I'm sure that Truly and Baker did not see Shelley and Lovelady by the freight elevators, and that Shelley was about right with his FBI estimation of 10 minutes.

Here is Lovelady entering the 1st floor;

Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Right. 
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie. 
Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie? 
Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman. 
Mr. BALL - What is her full name? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I wouldn't know. 
Mr. BALL - Vickie Adams? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I believe so. 
Mr. BALL - Would you say it was Vickie you saw? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I couldn't swear. 
Mr. BALL - Where was the girl? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what. 

If Shelley and Lovelady entered the west entrance within a minute of the assassination, I don't see why Lovelady would go up to one of the guys and ask the time in relation to "continue working". It should have been obvious that it was circa 12:31, and that they were still on their lunchbreak. Plus why ask one of the guys if his boss is right there?

However, the 25 minutes Lovelady told HSCA that it took to enter the TSBD makes more sense, in that he would ask that question.

[Ron Bulman]

12 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Ron

It seems that, when it comes to the Book Depository and its occupants, anything is possible.  In the April 2020 Weston article in Kennedys and King, Carolyn Arnold, a secretary for Ochus Campbell (VP of the Depository), told a friend in 1994 that she had been, and still was, terrified. She said that “there is a whole lot more to tell about the TSBD than what has been published ... that the whole building should be suspected as more or less of a ‘safe base’ to operate from that day in November 1963.”

The Texas School Book Depository (whose auspicious owner was D. H. Byrd, of Civil Air Patrol fame) had only occupied the building at 411 Elm Street for a few months prior to the assassination, moving into a new location in the summer of 1963.  Prior to this time, the building was occupied by a wholesale grocery company. Weston and others allege that the TSBD may have been used for smuggling activities and arms shipments (hence the various rifle stories and sightings) for right-wing groups and Cuban exiles.  There is an interesting February 2006 EF thread begun by Weston called "Spiders Web", where he posits that Depository and book company executives used schoolbooks to disguise shipments of firearms and narcotics. 

Gene

Gene your first paragraph here touches in a sense on something I've wondered about for years.  I'd read before about Carolyn Arnold saying, "the whole building should be suspected".   I've wondered if maybe an employee or two inside the TSBD might not have been involved.

Along the same line I wonder if maybe Truly and Shelly in particular might have wanted to or been advised to be seen out front.  In essence they knew a protest, scare of the president or something was going to happen based from the building.

I've also wondered about how useful an employee on the 6th and/or 1st floors might have been with their ability to blend in so to speak.  On the sixth floor someone to guard the elevators and stairs, hold the west elevator in place, lock it back in place after a couple of others descended and it was sent back up.  Then drift down one or two flights of stairs and blend in.  On the first floor to cut off breakers for the elevators or power to the whole building.

All speculation of course.  But a couple of people on the 6th floor did get away somehow.  And Geneva Hines said the phones and electricity were cut off at the time of the assassination, Truly with Baker as a witness couldn't get the freight elevator to come down, now Vicky Adams says the electricity was off to the passenger elevator 5 minutes after the assassination and tells Sandra Styles the elevator cables were moving on their way down.  Something was rotten in Denmark, and Dallas. 

[Denny Zartman]

13 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

In the April 2020 Weston article in Kennedys and King, Carolyn Arnold, a secretary for Ochus Campbell (VP of the Depository), told a friend in 1994 that she had been, and still was, terrified. She said that “there is a whole lot more to tell about the TSBD than what has been published ... that the whole building should be suspected as more or less of a ‘safe base’ to operate from that day in November 1963.”

This is fascinating. You sure know your stuff, Gene.

[Gene Kelly]

Denny

Appreciate the compliment, but I'm still learning.  Until these recent threads, I hadn't given the 2nd floor encounter or Roy Truly and Bill Shelley much thought. Too many other scenarios and subplots of interest to chase down and understand.  The articles in Kennedys and King really provide educational reading and references, by credible knowledgeable authors. And following the experienced and talented researchers who frequent this Forum (e.g., Pat Speer, Jim DiEugenio, Jeff Carter, Paul Jolliffe, Larry Hancock, William Weston, John Armstrong, just to name a few) is very enlightening and thought-provoking. Once you connect all those dots - like a puzzle - the picture becomes clearer. 

After this current thread (and some fact checking), Truly and Shelley become much more interesting to me.  And there are other "insiders" who may have helped to set up the sniper's nest on the 6th floor, plant the weapon, and perhaps take some diversionary shots.  Someone had to help the shooters leave the building ... for that matter, someone helped Oswald leave the building.  I have come to believe that someone was Bill Shelley, who sent him out the back door, off to the Texas Theater to meet an ersatz contact ... only to walk into the patsy trap. 

And it appears that Roy Truly distracted Officer Marion Baker - probably an honest cop who unexpectedly got off of his motorcycle and went into the TSBD quickly - by taking him up the stairs and onto the roof.  What they didn't count on was that Baker would actually see Oswald briefly on the 1st floor ...  and Truly cleared him, by saying he worked there. Hence the fictitious 2nd floor encounter and coke. Before Baker got off his bike and made his infamous dash towards the front entrance, he was riding escort with the motorcade near the 3rd camera Cam Car.  Stavis Ellis, Baker’s supervisor, stated that he put Baker this far back in the motorcade, as he did not regard Baker to be the sharpest officer; and he had harsh words for Baker and his subsequent actions. But after returning from the roof, Truly and Shelley promptly fingered Oswald as missing - although there were over 60 people working in the building, many of whom weren't inside at that moment - and set the patsy manhunt in motion.   

Gene

PS. The beauty of this Forum is the interaction and dialogue ... and if I'm missing something, or there's a better explanation, then others much more knowledgeable than I will add to what I've posted, expanding the knowledge base. 

[Gene Kelly]

Ron

The more that I read about the Book Depository, the more that I come to believe that it was full of "spooks" ...

Gene