The 2nd-Floor Baker/Oswald Encounter Has Been Debunked

[John Cotter]

On 10/24/2022 at 9:53 AM, John Cotter said:

David,

This short video by EF member Gil Jesus proves beyond any doubt whatsoever that there was a JFKA conspiracy and that there was an official cover-up of the conspiracy.

Since I understand you’re a proponent of the “lone nut” theory, how can you justify that position in light of this video?

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/28242-the-2nd-floor-bakeroswald-encounter-has-been-debunked/?do=findComment&comment=475708

Two days have passed and there's been no reply by David Von Pein to this post.

Perhaps some other "lone nut" theorist would like to respond.

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Well...except not one person said they saw LHO when shots rang out.

 

Just to be clear, when I was debating you, my only contention was that Oswald SAID he was outside during the presidential parade. Not that he was telling the truth.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 minute ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Just to be clear, when I was debating you, my only contention was that Oswald SAID he was outside during the presidential parade. Not that he was telling the truth.

 

Yes, understood. 

I am resting between rounds. 

[Sandy Larsen]

Just now, Sandy Larsen said:

Just to be clear, when I was debating you, my only contention was that Oswald SAID he was outside during the presidential parade. Not that he was telling the truth.

 

Having said that, it is my belief that Oswald was telling the truth. Maybe he was standing behind others, and so nobody saw him.

I happen to believe that Prayer Man is Oswald. How anybody see's a woman in that image is beyond me. Looks exactly what I imagine a blurry Oswald would look like.

I happen to believe that three people saw Oswald outside: Shelly, Lovelady, and Frazier. I believe, because of that, they were taken aside and treated specially. Given the patriotic, World War 3 speech, maybe threatened. Talked into telling little lies, for example to help support the second-floor encounter hoax. That's just my hypothesis.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

10 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Having said that, it is my belief that Oswald was telling the truth. Maybe he was standing behind others, and so nobody saw him.

I happen to believe that Prayer Man is Oswald. How anybody see's a woman in that image is beyond me. Looks exactly what I imagine a blurry Oswald would look like.

I happen to believe that three people saw Oswald outside: Shelly, Lovelady, and Frazier. I believe, because of that, they were taken aside and treated specially. Given the patriotic, World War 3 speech, maybe threatened. Talked into telling little lies, for example to help support the second-floor encounter hoax. That's just my hypothesis.

 

My ring crew is throwing ice water on me, rubbing the towels furiously, giving me the water bottle, shouting unintelligible instructions. 

I will come out the corner shortly. 

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Benjamin Cole writes:

Quote

The beyond-blurry images of someone who might be LHO or a middle-aged Latin woman...just don't cut it.

The point is that the figure standing in the shadowy corner of the steps is unidentified. The figure has some similarities to Oswald. Until a better-quality version of the Darnell or Wiegman films is released, we can't rule out the  possibility that the figure is Oswald.

A process of elimination leaves Oswald as the most likely candidate. All the other TSBD employees can be ruled out, to varying degrees of certainty. That leaves random members of the public, such as that hypothetical "middle-aged Latin woman". But this is very unlikely, because:

• All of the other people on the steps were TSBD employees.
• No-one mentioned seeing any non-employees pushing past employees to stand near the top step, an event many of them could be expected to have noticed.
• Non-TSBD people would have had easier access to better vantage points at the side of the street.

If the figure on the steps isn't a member of the public, it must be a TSBD employee. Of the few TSBD employees whose claimed locations at the time of the assassination were uncorroborated, there is only one whose appearance is consistent with that of the figure on the steps: Oswald.

It's possible that the release of better-quality images will rule out Oswald. It's also possible that it will confirm Oswald as the figure on the steps. Until such images become available, Oswald is the most likely candidate.

Quote

LHO's story about being in the first-floor lunchroom and going outside...just does not hold water.

It holds plenty of water. We can be sure that Oswald was in the first-floor lunchroom when he was supposed to have been on the sixth floor, sorting out his sniper's nest and assembling his rifle, for the reasons I gave in my previous comment, on page 6. Witnesses placed him on the first floor, and his story about seeing Jarman and Norman entering the rear of the building is corroborated by Jarman and Norman themselves.

If, as appears to be the case, Oswald was on the first floor at the same time as a gunman was seen on the sixth floor, any involvement Oswald might have had in the assassination could not have included firing any shots.

Quote

You know, on an afternoon off after the JFKA, a book-packer man likes to get a gun and then watch movies.  With the few odd other people in Dallas who want to watch a movie on 11/22?  (Who were those people anyway? And why was the Texas Theater even open?)

As I pointed out on another thread (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/28238-why-lho-was-involved-in-the-jfka/?do=findComment&comment=475129), we only have the cops' word that Oswald had a gun on him when arrested, and there are reasons to doubt the cops' account.

There is an innocent explanation for Oswald's presence at the Texas Theater: he had been told that he was no longer needed at work, and he was occupying some time before meeting Marina and Ruth at one of the nearby shoe shops. We know that Ruth Paine intended to take Marina shopping for shoes that afternoon.

Quote

Why was LHO murdered two days later by a mobbed-up Ruby, who had run guns to Cuba and been an FBI informant?

This too is something I explained earlier. Oswald needn't have been murdered to prevent him spilling the beans about any involvement he might have had in an assassination plot.

He might just as easily have been murdered if he were completely innocent of any involvement, simply to prevent him testifying at a trial, when he would be able to explain his alibi in detail.

Anyone who feared the collapse of the lone-gunman explanation, whether they had planned the assassination or merely fitted up the patsy after the event, would have had the motivation to eliminate Oswald. All the main suspects had connections to Jack Ruby.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Jeremy Bojczuk
Corrected a typo

[Pete Mellor]

19 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Well...except not one person said they saw LHO when shots rang out.

Geraldine Reid did.

[Paul Cummings]

Some evidence suggest the shots didn't originate from the 6th floor.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Paul Cummings

[Guest]

Geraldine Reid was a hoax.

 

https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/groden-robert-absolute-proof

[Benjamin Cole]

10 minutes ago, Mike Kiely said:

Geraldine Reid was a hoax.

 

https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/groden-robert-absolute-proof

Oh dear. 

[Charles Blackmon]

3 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

 All the main suspects had connections to Jack Ruby.

All the main suspects? Well maybe the Mob did, but what about anti-Castro Cubans?

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Charles Blackmon writes:

Quote

All the main suspects? Well maybe the Mob did, but what about anti-Castro Cubans?

True: anti-Castro Cubans probably didn't have direct access to Ruby. But they were connected at one remove, via those elements of the mafia and US intelligence that were working together to oppose Castro.

Everyone is aware of Jack Ruby's connections to the mafia. One connection that may be more significant is his relationship with law enforcement in general and the Dallas police in particular.

There are several candidate groups who might have twisted Ruby's arm to get him to eliminate Oswald, but it was the Dallas police who allowed him access to their prisoner. The police's motivation would simply have been to cover up their inadequate investigation of the assassination and their fitting-up of Oswald. This was one case in which the innocent party could not have been safely packed off to prison and forgotten about.

Oswald need not have been eliminated to prevent him spilling the beans about any involvement he might have had in the assassination. Ruby's killing of Oswald need not have been a pre-planned element of any conspiracy to kill JFK.

Seth Kantor deals with Ruby's various connections in his book, Who Was Jack Ruby? The book isn't easy to get hold of these days, but you can find excerpts here (item 4 in this list deals with Ruby's links to law enforcement):

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/K%20Disk/Kantor%20Seth/

[Sandy Larsen]

23 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

On 10/26/2022 at 8:25 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Well...except not one person said they saw LHO when shots rang out.

Geraldine Reid did.

 

Just for the record, it wasn't I who said "not one person said they saw LHO when shots rang out." I think Ben said it.

[Pete Mellor]

18 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Just for the record, it wasn't I who said "not one person said they saw LHO when shots rang out." I think Ben said it.

Sandy, Yeah, I did see that, but posted anyway, sorry for the confusion.  As for the Reid quote, it came from just reading Dave O'Brien's book 'Case Not Closed', which in turn came from Robert Groden.  Reid did not see LHO in the 2nd floor office during the shooting!  Made up by Groden?!?  I did post the proof of the misinfo in the thread 'Killing Floor'.  

[Sandy Larsen]

1 minute ago, Pete Mellor said:

Sandy, Yeah, I did see that, but posted anyway, sorry for the confusion.  As for the Reid quote, it came from just reading Dave O'Brien's book 'Case Not Closed', which in turn came from Robert Groden.  Reid did not see LHO in the 2nd floor office during the shooting!  Made up by Groden?!?  I did post the proof of the misinfo in the thread 'Killing Floor'.  

 

Thanks Pete. It's not a big deal, so I didn't ask you to correct it.

I need to check out that Reid quote though. Thanks for the info.