HSCA Televised Hearings 1978 (Video)

[Benjamin Cole]

On 11/12/2022 at 1:51 AM, David Von Pein said:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/search?q=Tumbling+Bullet+Connally+Back+Wound

 

DVP--

OK, you posit the bullet that may have passed through JFK's throat did not tumble before striking JBC...which would explain the small round hole in JBC's shirt. 

But riddle me this:

Humes said he explored the bullet hole in JFK's upper back, and that it pointed downwards at a 60-degree angle. I have never been able to find out if that 60 degrees from JFK's front or back, but let that go.  Or call it 45 degrees just for argument's sake. 

Given that the posited projectile struck JFK and was heading steeply down into his torso for a least a couple inches...how does that projectile then make a u-turn inside JFK's body to turn upwards, to exit through JFK's neck-Adam's apple  area cleanly, to then resume a downward angle to then strike a clean hit on JBC's back?

That's the part that has always stuck for me--Humes saying he explored the back wound, and the bullet left a track that was headed steeply downward into JFK's torso. That just does not line up with the bullet then exiting JFK's throat but then again traveling downwards into JBC's back. 

That just stretches credulity. 

 

[Gerry Down]

7 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

DVP--

OK, you posit the bullet that may have passed through JFK's throat did not tumble before striking JBC...which would explain the small round hole in JBC's shirt. 

But riddle me this:

Humes said he explored the bullet hole in JFK's upper back, and that it pointed downwards at a 60-degree angle. I have never been able to find out if that 60 degrees from JFK's front or back, but let that go.  Or call it 45 degrees just for argument's sake. 

Given that the posited projectile struck JFK and was heading steeply down into his torso for a least a couple inches...how does that projectile then make a u-turn inside JFK's body to turn upwards, to exit through JFK's neck-Adam's apple  area cleanly, to then resume a downward angle to then strike a clean hit on JBC's back?

That's the part that has always stuck for me--Humes saying he explored the back wound, and the bullet left a track that was headed steeply downward into JFK's torso. That just does not line up with the bullet then exiting JFK's throat but then again traveling downwards into JBC's back. 

That just stretches credulity. 

 

The bullet could not have entered at a 60 degree angle while JFK was on Elm street as such an assassin would have to be firing from a blimp over Dealey Plaza to make such a shot.

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Gerry Down said:

The bullet could not have entered at a 60 degree angle while JFK was on Elm street as such an assassin would have to be firing from a blimp over Dealey Plaza to make such a shot.

"O'Neil and Siebert, quoted Humes as sticking his finger in the hole and saying that it entered at a 45 to 60 degree angle."

Well, true, although remember the torso could be leaning forward or back. The usual angle given from the TSBD 6th floor to JFK is 17 degrees or so (or 73 degrees, if you want to measure the obverse). The top of the Dal-Tex building might get you a few more degrees. 

It is possible that Humes meant 60 degrees from level ground, or indicating 30 degrees downwards, if you were measuring from a ceiling or the top of JFK's head. 

Humes thought the bullet should be in JFK's body and hunted for it. It is a puzzle. How did a bullet traveling downwards hit JFK in the back, evidently take a steep angle into JFK's body (possibly JFK was leaning back at the moment the bullet struck), and then exit through the Adam's apple throat area?

Bullets can change direction inside a body based upon viscosities and bones struck. But really, it just doesn't add up. Because upon exiting, (under the SBT) the bullet was supposed to then go down again, into JBC. 

Many people describe the first shot as different in sound from the following shots. An undercharged shot? 

[Paul Cummings]

Given the depth of the wound, IMO that could have come from a ricochet.

[David Von Pein]

13 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

But riddle me this: Humes said he explored the bullet hole in JFK's upper back, and that it pointed downwards at a 60-degree angle. ....

As Gerry correctly pointed out, the "60 degree" angle estimate (or even one of 45 degrees) cannot possibly be accurate....unless a TWA pilot overhead was the assassin.

Edited November 13, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Joseph McBride]

The Belmont FBI memo on the night of 11-22-63, which I discovered in the 1980s

and write about in INTO THE NIGHTMARE (I couldn't

get an article about it into print in the 1980s, and Doug

Horne discussed it in his volumes before I published

INTO THE NIGHTMARE), mentions a bullet lodged

behind the president's ear that they were in the

process of obtaining. It probably was removed

in the pre-autopsy "surgery." It never was

entered into evidence. That memo and

corroborating evidence (such as Secret

Service and civilian eyewitness accounts

of a bullet striking JFK there) is a smoking gun that destroys the Warren Report. And there are accounts

of other bullets found but not entered into evidence.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Joseph McBride

[Benjamin Cole]

7 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

As Gerry correctly pointed out, the "60 degree" angle estimate (or even one of 45 degrees) cannot possibly be accurate....unless a TWA pilot overhead was the assassin.

DVP--

Nevertheless, Hume probed the wound and that is what he said. You can't say evidence is not evidence as it does not fit our understanding of the case. 

It is possible Hume meant 60 degrees as measured from the ground, meaning the bullet was descending at a 30 degree angle into JFK's body. If JFK had been leaning backward at time of impact, or if the bullet took a downward course upon striking JFK, then a 30 degree angle is certainly possible. Perhaps the sniper was atop the Dal-Tex building, a slightly higher angle. 

In any event, the wound was probed, and indicated a bullet had entered JFK's body at a downward angle, call it 30 degrees if you wish. Based upon the bullet path, Hume believed the bullet had entered JFK's torso.

How did the bullet exit JFK's throat? That does not add up. 

Yes, Hume was not an experienced pathologist. But sticking a finger into a wound to determine direction of the bullet path seems a simple task.

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Benjamin Cole

[David Von Pein]

12 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

How did the bullet exit JFK's throat? That does not add up. 

This section of the Clark Panel's report in 1968 might be of interest to you:

"The other bullet struck the decedent's back at the right side of the base of the neck between the shoulder and spine and emerged from the front of his neck near the midline. The possibility that this bullet might have followed a pathway other than one passing through the site of the tracheotomy wound was considered. No evidence for this was found. There is a track between the two cutaneous wounds as indicated by subcutaneous emphysema and small metallic fragments on the X-rays and the contusion of the apex of the right lung and laceration of the trachea described in the Autopsy Report. In addition, any path other than one between the two cutaneous wounds would almost surely have been intercepted by bone and the X-ray films show no bony damage in the thorax or neck." -- From Clark Panel Report

Replay (for emphasis)....

"There is a track between the two cutaneous wounds..."

Another interesting part of the 1968 Clark Panel Report is the portion of the report in which the Clark Panel concludes that the bullet hole in President Kennedy's throat was located 3.5 centimeters LOWER (anatomically) than the bullet wound in the President's upper back....

"There is an elliptical penetrating wound of the skin of the back located approximately 15 cm. medial to the right acromial process, 5 cm. lateral to the mid-dorsal line and 14 cm. below the right mastoid process. This wound lies approximately 5.5 cm. below a transverse fold in the skin of the neck. This fold can also be seen in a lateral view of the neck which shows an anterior tracheotomy wound. This view makes it possible to compare the levels of these two wounds in relation to that of the horizontal plane of the body. .... The center of the circular wound [in the front of the neck] is situated approximately 9 cm. below the transverse fold in the skin of the neck described in a preceding paragraph. This indicates that the bullet which produced the two wounds followed a course downward and to the left in its passage through the body." -- From Clark Panel Report

 

Related Video (featuring Dr. Russell Fisher of the Clark Panel):

 

[Cue Pat Speer's habitual blasting of the Clark Panel.]

 

[Gerry Down]

44 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

This section of the Clark Panel's report in 1968 might be of interest to you:

"The other bullet struck the decedent's back at the right side of the base of the neck between the shoulder and spine and emerged from the front of his neck near the midline. The possibility that this bullet might have followed a pathway other than one passing through the site of the tracheotomy wound was considered. No evidence for this was found. There is a track between the two cutaneous wounds as indicated by subcutaneous emphysema and small metallic fragments on the X-rays and the contusion of the apex of the right lung and laceration of the trachea described in the Autopsy Report. In addition, any path other than one between the two cutaneous wounds would almost surely have been intercepted by bone and the X-ray films show no bony damage in the thorax or neck." -- From Clark Panel Report

Replay (for emphasis)....

"There is a track between the two cutaneous wounds..."

Another interesting part of the 1968 Clark Panel Report is the portion of the report in which the Clark Panel concludes that the bullet hole in President Kennedy's throat was located 3.5 centimeters LOWER (anatomically) than the bullet wound in the President's upper back....

"There is an elliptical penetrating wound of the skin of the back located approximately 15 cm. medial to the right acromial process, 5 cm. lateral to the mid-dorsal line and 14 cm. below the right mastoid process. This wound lies approximately 5.5 cm. below a transverse fold in the skin of the neck. This fold can also be seen in a lateral view of the neck which shows an anterior tracheotomy wound. This view makes it possible to compare the levels of these two wounds in relation to that of the horizontal plane of the body. .... The center of the circular wound [in the front of the neck] is situated approximately 9 cm. below the transverse fold in the skin of the neck described in a preceding paragraph. This indicates that the bullet which produced the two wounds followed a course downward and to the left in its passage through the body." -- From Clark Panel Report

 

Related Video (featuring Dr. Russell Fisher of the Clark Panel):

 

[Cue Pat Speer's habitual blasting of the Clark Panel.]

 

Good point. And the angle between the back and throat that corresponds to this 3.5cm difference is 17 degrees. The same angle of a bullet coming from the snipers nest. 

[Gerry Down]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Nevertheless, Hume probed the wound and that is what he said. You can't say evidence is not evidence as it does not fit our understanding of the case. 

 

I don't deny what Humes said. What I believe happened is that JFK was resting his right arm in an elevated position on the side of the limo at the time he was shot. At the autopsy when they were probing the back wound JFKs arms would most likely have been down by his side. Therefore the back muscles would have been in a different position at the autopsy from when the bullet entered his back on Elm street. This could account for the unusual 60 degree downward angle Humes was finding. 

[David Von Pein]

5 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

And the angle between the back and throat that corresponds to this 3.5cm difference is 17 degrees. The same angle of a bullet coming from the sniper's nest. 

Indeed....

 

http://DVP's JFK Archives / The SBT Perfection Of Commission Exhibit 903

 

[Pat Speer's inevitable rebuttal re: CE903 is HERE. I figure I might as well post it here myself. I know it's coming anyway.]

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Gerry Down]

Actually I could be wrong about that. I think the difference was greater than the Clark Panel estimated. I think it was more like 5cm which would equate to 17 degrees. Of course if JFK was leaning slightly forward, a 3.5cm difference, if one was to stick strictly to the Clark Panels measurement of 3.5cm, would still allow for a 17 degree angle coming down from the snipers nest. All these measurements fall comfortably within the SBT in any case. 

The difference i'm getting is 5cm between the back and throat wound but that is from the lateral autopsy photo with JFK on his back. And that is 17 degrees. Of course that is a unnatural position on the autopsy table so there would be some difference while JFK was seated in the car. 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Gerry Down

[Benjamin Cole]

14 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Indeed....

 

http://DVP's JFK Archives / The SBT Perfection Of Commission Exhibit No. 903

 

I think Specter has it right in this photo, holding to rod above "JFK's" shoulder.  The bullet came over JFK's shoulder and struck JBC, a clean direct shot as posited by JBC's surgeon, Robert Shaw (who had operated on 700 WWII bullet injuries). 

I am surprised to learn from this photo that Specter was aware of the probable scenario. 

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Gerry Down said:

All these measurements fall comfortably within the SBT in any case. 

Yes. And yet I'm supposed to believe the CTers who tell me that two (or probably THREE) different bullets lined themselves up beautifully so that Arlen Specter could later present this impressive "one bullet" exhibit to the world. Talk about incredibly good luck for Mr. Specter & Company! ....

 

Has any conspiracy theorist in history ever made this basic observation?....

Boy, those assassins were sure a bunch of lucky sons of bitches when the guy who shot JFK in the throat from the front managed to hit Kennedy in exactly the right spot on his body so that (later on) the official investigators could utilize that entry wound in the throat as the point of exit for the SBT bullet. And then the multiple assassins got even luckier when the upper-back bullet and the bullet that entered the throat both decided not to exit the body and then both of those bullets vanished into puffs of smoke before either of those bullets (which obviously were still inside JFK's body when he was inside Trauma Room No. 1 at Parkland Hospital) could be seen by any non-conspirator.

Can anyone truly believe that such incredible good fortune could possibly have existed amongst the (alleged) multiple shooters who were (allegedly) firing bullets at President Kennedy on 11/22/63?

(And yet CTers have the gall to tell me that I am the one who believes in "Magic Bullets". Oy vey!)

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Joseph McBride]

The spurious dictabelt tape was a poison

pill inserted by Mary Ferrell and other

disinformation specialists to discredit

the idea of a conspiracy in the JFK

assassination.