A Response To DiEugenio's "Dale Myers and his World of Illusion"

[Bob Ness]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

 

I'll send up a flare. 

[James DiEugenio]

👌

BTW, looking at Amazon today, the DVD package is back in at number 7 for documentaries.

And this is going on five months since it was released.

[Bill Brown]

12 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

He didn't post the reply. You did and you're referencing Myer's blog. It's a simple question that I'm sure he would have an answer to but you have used it to support a criticism, which is fair. I'd like to know what TWO KNOWN references he's writing about. He critiques Harris's comparison pointing out errors by using two dimensional references and then claims he can use two himself. Maybe. What are they? I'm actually interested to know that or maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

So what TWO references is he referring to? It's ok if you don't know.

 

It's not a matter of knowing or not knowing.  You're asking me to speak for someone else and no matter how many times you ask, I am not going to do that.

 

[Bill Brown]

14 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

LOL, ROTF.  Good one Bob.

 

And a comment comes flying in out of left field from the peanut gallery.

 

[Bill Brown]

12 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

He didn't post the reply. You did and you're referencing Myer's blog. It's a simple question that I'm sure he would have an answer to but you have used it to support a criticism, which is fair. I'd like to know what TWO KNOWN references he's writing about. He critiques Harris's comparison pointing out errors by using two dimensional references and then claims he can use two himself. Maybe. What are they? I'm actually interested to know that or maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

So what TWO references is he referring to? It's ok if you don't know.

 

Bob, go to the Myers blog and find the article.  He has them sorted in a manner which makes them easy to locate by date.

 

Simply scroll down to the comments section and ask him that exact question.

 

[Bill Brown]

7 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

Based on the maps and their distance scales that I reviewed this morning, I'd say the distance from her apartment to the shooting scene was no more than 220 feet, and we should keep in mind that her second-story apartment was a good 18-20 feet above the ground.

The period photos to which I referred are the 1964 FBI photos of the Tippit scene and of the surrounding area, the Heikes photo, and Commission Exhibits 523 and 530. CE 530 is a photo that shows the building in which Ms. Holan lived from the vantage point of a point on Tenth St., and keep in mind that Ms. Holan's second-story apartment was on the northern end of the building, i.e., the end that was closer to Tenth St. Note also that the building on the southern Tenth and Patton corner was at least 20-30 feet from the southern sidewalk and another 6 feet or so from the street. CE 523 is an annotated map of the Tippit scene that seems to show that Ms. Holan would have been able to see Tippit and his patrol car from her second-floor apartment. CE 523 seems to show that the two houses between her building and Tippit's car would not have obstructed her view of the shooting scene.

I notice you avoided the question regarding whether Professor Pulte was lying when he said he attended one of Brownlow's meetings with Ms. Holan. I believe that Pulte was telling the truth. I believe that Brownlow did have several conversations with Ms. Holan. I believe that Ms. Holan's account may be genuine. One wonders why an old lady living in a nursing home would fabricate such a story, although one can always theorize that Brownlow and Hulte misrepresented what she said. 

 

 

 

Based on the maps and their distance scales that I reviewed this morning, I'd say the distance from her apartment to the shooting scene was no more than 220 feet...

 

Again, it is 114 feet from the corner of Tenth and Patton to where Tippit fell.  Without using scales, just looking at it with the naked eye on Google Earth, the distance from the spot where Tippit fell to the location where the apartment was on Patton looks (at least to me) to be at least twice the distance as it is from the spot where Tippit fell to the corner.  This would make it at least 228 feet.

 

Either way, it is much greater a distance than you tried to pass off yesterday when you said it was 150 feet.

 

 

...and we should keep in mind that her second-story apartment was a good 18-20 feet above the ground.

 

The point you are trying to make here is to support your claim made yesterday that from her apartment on Patton, "Ms. Holan may indeed have been able to see Tippit and his car".  Invalid point.  The house on the corner (400 E. Tenth, the residence of both Barbara Davis and Virginia Davis), as well as the house next to it (404 E. Tenth), were pretty much just as high a structure as was the building that Holan lived in on Patton.  From the apartment on Patton, Holan's view to the location of Tippit's patrol car would be blocked by the first two houses (400 and 404).  These two houses are in a direct line from Holan's apartment to the location of Tippit's stopped patrol car.

 

 

The period photos to which I referred are the 1964 FBI photos of the Tippit scene and of the surrounding area, the Heikes photo, and Commission Exhibits 523 and 530. CE 530 is a photo that shows the building in which Ms. Holan lived from the vantage point of a point on Tenth St., and keep in mind that Ms. Holan's second-story apartment was on the northern end of the building, i.e., the end that was closer to Tenth St. Note also that the building on the southern Tenth and Patton corner was at least 20-30 feet from the southern sidewalk and another 6 feet or so from the street. CE 523 is an annotated map of the Tippit scene that seems to show that Ms. Holan would have been able to see Tippit and his patrol car from her second-floor apartment. CE 523 seems to show that the two houses between her building and Tippit's car would not have obstructed her view of the shooting scene.

 

No Sir.  The "period photos" do no such thing.  The first two houses (400 and 404) are just as tall as the building Holan lived in.  These two houses are in a direct line from Holan's apartment to the location of Tippit's stopped patrol car.

 

The first photo (below) shows the Davis house (white two story structure, far left).  On the far right, you can see the shadowy image of the building of the Holan apartment halfway down the block.

 

The second photo (below) shows the first two houses and the location of Tippit's stopped patrol car.

 

The third photo (below) depicts Tippit's stopped patrol car and shows the 404 house in the background.  By your own admission, Holan's apartment was as much as 220 feet from where that police car is and on the OTHER SIDE of that house.  No way could Holan have had a view of Tippit's car from her apartment on Patton.

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Bill Brown

[Bill Brown]

Holan's apartment on Patton to Tippit's stopped patrol car.  No line of sight...

 

 

[Bill Brown]

8 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

I notice you avoided the question regarding whether Professor Pulte was lying when he said he attended one of Brownlow's meetings with Ms. Holan. I believe that Pulte was telling the truth. I believe that Brownlow did have several conversations with Ms. Holan. I believe that Ms. Holan's account may be genuine. One wonders why an old lady living in a nursing home would fabricate such a story, although one can always theorize that Brownlow and Hulte misrepresented what she said. 

 

I have spoken to Brownlow in person perhaps a half dozen times now.  I don't believe 80% of what he says.  Pulte, aligning himself with Brownlow, has zero credibility with me.

 

[Michael Griffith]

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

Holan's apartment on Patton to Tippit's stopped patrol car.  No line of sight...

This photo, especially when compared with CE 530, convinces me that you are correct, that Holan would not have had a line of sight to Tippit and his car. 

[Bill Brown]

21 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

This photo, especially when compared with CE 530, convinces me that you are correct, that Holan would not have had a line of sight to Tippit and his car. 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Bill Brown

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, Michael Griffith said:

This photo, especially when compared with CE 530, convinces me that you are correct, that Holan would not have had a line of sight to Tippit and his car. 

Why are you convinced that Holan actually lived there at the time of the assassination? Is there any evidence I’m not aware of that the move actually occurred in September other than Lad Holan, who only came to believe the move occurred in September after speaking with Dale Myers in 2021? Myers certainly doesn’t mention any such evidence in his article.

We have solid evidence in the letter Myers found that the move occurred by mid December, but that’s it. Also, according to Myers, other family members could not corroborate the September date, so I’m curious why you aren’t seeing any ambiguity here. 

[Bob Ness]

6 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

 

Bob, go to the Myers blog and find the article.  He has them sorted in a manner which makes them easy to locate by date.

 

Simply scroll down to the comments section and ask him that exact question.

 

Ok. You don't know then. That's fine you could have said that to begin with. YOU are making an assertion based on someone else's work. Not me. If I posted an assertion based on someone else's writing, I would expect to have to defend that and not tell somebody "Go read a book" to prove your point. It states that these are WELL KNOWN, yet you can't tell me what they are and instead are telling me to go find them. If they are well known, why don't you tell me what they are?

Here's a guess. You are posting the comment referring to his work but really don't know whether it's valid or not. You believe him and don't believe Harris' rebuttal who is at least as qualified as you to refute Myer's assertion. You further deny the rebuttal of David Heally, who I can assure you is qualified to render an opinion and has, I believe, studied Myer's animation in depth. I also have many qualifications to render at least a decent opinion on it but haven't studied the animation in such detail to fairly assess his specific findings.

I can say the statement "single bullet fact" is tenuous for the simple reason that I've spent many years doing such animations and recreations (although not in the criminal realm to any significant degree) and know such recreations are subject to many potential errors. I think Dale has refused to share the source files for the animation (and even sued somebody using the footage for criticism??) and doubt he'd be very welcoming to me if I posed any questions to him, whether I was fair or not.

You originally posted Dale's response to Robert Harris' rebuttal by copying and pasting someone else's work and then wiping your hands of it. I could post a copy of Moby Dick, say that Melville claimed Oswald was innocent and respond to objections by saying go read the book. 

I'm being ridiculous to illustrate a point. Regurgitating somebody else's work to support your argument is fine, but if you don't even know the basics of his assertions and yet support them in the face of expert contrary opinions it sounds a lot like an article of faith on your part. Not an objective criticism.

That's a fact.

Just in case you don't believe me, here's a link to Moby Dick. Check it out:

The Project Gutenberg eBook of Moby Dick; Or the Whale, by Herman Melville

7 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Flare.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Bob Ness

[Bob Ness]

7 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

👌

BTW, looking at Amazon today, the DVD package is back in at number 7 for documentaries.

And this is going on five months since it was released.

That's fantastic Jim. Congrats to you and the other film makers!

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks Bob.

And that was a really neat reply to Brown. Think he has read Moby Dick?

 

[Greg Doudna]

3 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Why are you convinced that Holan actually lived there at the time of the assassination? Is there any evidence I’m not aware of that the move actually occurred in September other than Lad Holan, who only came to believe the move occurred in September after speaking with Dale Myers in 2021? Myers certainly doesn’t mention any such evidence in his article.

We have solid evidence in the letter Myers found that the move occurred by mid December, but that’s it. Also, according to Myers, other family members could not corroborate the September date, so I’m curious why you aren’t seeing any ambiguity here. 

Tom, I respect your intelligent cross-examination on the basis of evidence, but here is what convinced me Myers got that right about the Holans' address at 113 S.  Patton on Nov 22, 1963. It does not matter whether they moved there in September or not, only whether they were there on Nov. 22. First, the letter proves they were at 113 S. Patton only a month later in December. Second, Lad Holan is emphatic in his memory of that day, Nov 22, and that he and his mother were living at 113 S. Patton on that day--not an easy thing to get wrong in memory I would think, and no reason for him to be lying about it. Third, Myers found a photo of Doris Holan's car parked on S. Patton directly in front of the 113 S. Patton address on Nov 22, 1963--the logical reason it would be parked there is because that is where she was living on the day of that photo, not on 10th. And fourth, no counterevidence disputing that the Holans lived on 113 S. Patton on Nov 22. Those four points are sufficient for me to consider that point established, a fact established.

I believe Doris Holan's story, as garbled as it is via the Pulte/Brownlow hearsay retelling, is not to be wholly dismissed. Looked at in terms of her true address, 113 S. Patton, there is a level at which the Doris Holan story is credible on three points: first, the part where she claims "Oswald" (the gunman) ran under her apartment window--that fits 113 S. Patton. Second, nobody else seems to see this but me but it is just plain to me Doris Holan witnessed and told a version of the Callaway-gunman shouting/armwaving interaction at each other as they went opposite directions on Patton, with the big 200 pound man in the "driveway" being Callaway in the alley next to Callaway's car lot as Doris Holan looked east from 113 S. Patton. And third, I think it is plausible that she saw a police car leaving in that alley looking east from 113 S. Patton. 

Myers relocates the Holan address on Nov 22 correctly, and uses that to demolish the Doris Holan story mediated via Pulte/Brownlow in its mistaken setting from the 10th St. vantage point. A lot of people want to keep that 10th St. vantage-point story, don't like Myers, and reason therefore Myers has this Doris Holan address correction wrong. No, he got the Doris Holan address right. And--which nobody seems to be noticing--the correct address of Doris Holan opens up a reinterpretation of a garbled but real hearsay story of this witness on S. Patton not previously appreciated (because of the error in the address, and the problems with transmission and late appearance of the hearsay story). 

But never mind the interpretation issue. The starting point is to get the address right, and on the 113 S. Patton Holan address on Nov 22, Myers clearly got that right. I don't see any question on that.