What If the Final Docs Proved CIA Involvement in JFKA?

[Michaleen Kilroy]

19 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

TG-

You certainly raise a lot of good points. 

But with each one of these stories, we tend to add to the number of people who were witting participants in the JFKA or the immediate aftermaths.

So....Roy Truly lied about meeting LHO in the second-floor lunch room (Baker too?), and numerous officers in the DPD lied about everything and phonied up the backyard photos, and the Secret Service gimmicked the parade route (along with the Mayor of Dallas) and while LHO (though a loyal CIA asset) was totally innocent and made a patsy, and a CIA ops team about eight got in and around Dealey Plaza and did JFK in. 

FBI agents then phonied up paper records on the guns, and much else, while CIA personnel made out of whole cloth LHO's trip to Mexico City. I think I just scratched the surface here. Some people even say the taxi driver who gave LHO a ride post-JFKA was lying.

A cast of dozens...or do we reach triple digits? 

Not one of these people ever "came clean" in subsequent years. 

Maybe. 

IMHO...my best guess remains the JFKA confederates were three in number, CIA-linked, and included LHO, likely as an unwitting patsy. 

LHO, reasonably scared at what had just happened, and possibly fearing immediate assassination of himself, went home and got a gun. Whether he was just hiding in the Texas Theater, or meeting someone...don't know. 

Just IMHO....

 

 

 

 

Just curious… with compelling evidence both Angleton and Helms knew of a CIA psyops with LHO leading up to JFKA (see Morley article in original post above), would it be possible they were innocent and only rogue CIA did the hit? I find that difficult to believe myself.

[David Josephs]

20 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

IMO, it must first be proven that Oswald *didn't* do it, *and* that proof must be widely disseminated, getting past the media gatekeepers, before there can be enough support for an investigation of what really happened.  If Oswald didn't do it the Warren Report collapses.  Given the enormity of the crime and destructiveness that has resulted since, something must replace it.

I am hoping that proven the negative NEVER becomes part of our judicial system.  OSWALD is innocent until proven guilty, which, based on the evidence available now, is not possible as the Authenticity of the Evidence is so poor, none of it could be used to convict anyone.. until the fix was in that is.

We have proof the FBI cooperated yet not they were involved in the actual assassination.
We have even more proof the Secret Service was involved in a myriad of plans and plots starting in Dealey Plaza (or the drunken night before) and winding up with Chief ROWLEY and buddies with what may have been the original Zapruder film in their possession middle of the night over Fri/Sat before it goes to Hawkeyeworks.
We have proof the State dept was in sync with the CIA in pushing the OSWALD-CASTRO-KRUSCHEV connections.

The CIA "dirty tricks" folks were all over it for sure...  and would be in the best position to recruit and support the actual shooters...

Yet all in all, the one thread throughout all of this proof is the US Military... ONI & MID as well as the JCS thru the ACSI...

The documents may very well lay the blame at the feet of the CIA... but from my POV the CIA has always been the front for Military's intelligence and their ability to do most anything, anywhere in the world.  Drag down Helms and Bissell etc... but you don't see much coming from LeMay and Taylor... do we?

I started with the premise that Oswald did it... and looked to trace how he would be aware enough to plan and execute the plan in the time we see is available.  Oswald the Patsy was railroaded that entire day despite the actual evidence proving the contrary... as I hope you will see...

https://www.kennedysandking.com/content/oswald-on-november-22-1963 is an early essay discussing the "plan" Oswald used to "do it"... and illustrates how absurd it looks on its face.

[Benjamin Cole]

9 minutes ago, Michaleen Kilroy said:

Just curious… with compelling evidence both Angleton and Helms knew of a CIA psyops with LHO leading up to JFKA (see Morley article in original post above), would it be possible they were innocent and only rogue CIA did the hit? I find that difficult to believe myself.

Yes, it appears that Angleton and Helms knew the name LHO, and likely that he was a witting asset. (In defense of anyone in national security, there is always the problem of huge information flows. LHO may have been small flotsam in seas of information).

And sure, Angleton or Helms may have tacitly or obliquely told someone in the Miami CIA station that LHO could be used, that he had been prepped to participate in an event on 11/22. 

We can ponder if someone in the CIA Miami station obliquely raised the specter of the JFKA, and received no reply from Helms, indicating tacit approval. 

Or maybe David Atlee Phillips devised a false flag but intentionally unsuccessful JFKA involving LHO, but it was piggybacked on by Eladio Del Valle and Hermininio Diaz, and the info was leaked to the pair from higher or mid-level ranks inside the CIA. Perhaps even unintentionally leaked. 

It may well be there was a senior CIA official giving the thumb's up to a very small group of very trusted operatives, as in two or three. Or maybe just a rogue effort out of Miami, again a couple-three guys.  

I gather John Newman may be working on a different angle. 

What I have trouble believing is JFKA plots involving dozens or more. 

 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

29 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Ben,

Oswald didn't try to draw his pistol. McDonald tried to snatch it put of his belt and Oswald tried to prevent him.

Oswald's hands were up. McDonald didn't tell Oswald to freeze. He didn't yell out to his fellow officers warning them that there was a gun. He just immediately made a snatch for it.

Report by Patrolman M. N. McDonald to Chief of Police J. E. Curry, December 4, 1963

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339292/m1/1/?q=L.M.%20McDonald

WC testimony of M.N. McDonald

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/mcdonald.htm

"And just as I got to the row where the suspect was sitting, I stopped abruptly, and turned in and told him to get on his feet. He rose immediately, bringing up both hands. He got this hand about shoulder high, his left hand shoulder high, and he got his right hand about breast high. He said, "Well, it is all over now."
As he said this, I put my left hand on his waist and then his hand went to the waist. And this hand struck me between the eyes on the bridge of the nose."

Steve Thomas

Well, OK. I do not think it a wise move to slug a police officer reaching for your weapon, and then grapple for the weapon. 

I can tell you, the LAPD would have shot LHO many many times in the Texas Theater.  Maybe there is hyperbole in the arrest reports and testimony. 

[Michaleen Kilroy]

19 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

What I have trouble believing is JFKA plots involving dozens or more. 

Agreed but there is that nasty habit among the spooks of plausible deniability. And whether they had prior knowledge, their intentional coverups made them accessories after the fact, IMO. 

[Roger Odisio]

2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

I am hoping that proven the negative NEVER becomes part of our judicial system.  OSWALD is innocent until proven guilty, which, based on the evidence available now, is not possible as the Authenticity of the Evidence is so poor, none of it could be used to convict anyone.. until the fix was in that is.

We have proof the FBI cooperated yet not they were involved in the actual assassination.
We have even more proof the Secret Service was involved in a myriad of plans and plots starting in Dealey Plaza (or the drunken night before) and winding up with Chief ROWLEY and buddies with what may have been the original Zapruder film in their possession middle of the night over Fri/Sat before it goes to Hawkeyeworks.
We have proof the State dept was in sync with the CIA in pushing the OSWALD-CASTRO-KRUSCHEV connections.

The CIA "dirty tricks" folks were all over it for sure...  and would be in the best position to recruit and support the actual shooters...

Yet all in all, the one thread throughout all of this proof is the US Military... ONI & MID as well as the JCS thru the ACSI...

The documents may very well lay the blame at the feet of the CIA... but from my POV the CIA has always been the front for Military's intelligence and their ability to do most anything, anywhere in the world.  Drag down Helms and Bissell etc... but you don't see much coming from LeMay and Taylor... do we?

I started with the premise that Oswald did it... and looked to trace how he would be aware enough to plan and execute the plan in the time we see is available.  Oswald the Patsy was railroaded that entire day despite the actual evidence proving the contrary... as I hope you will see...

https://www.kennedysandking.com/content/oswald-on-november-22-1963 is an early essay discussing the "plan" Oswald used to "do it"... and illustrates how absurd it looks on its face.

Considering the negative--he didn't do it--has always been part of the judicial system.  It's called the alibi of the accused.  Oswald gave his alibi.  He said he went outside to watch the "P parade" after eating his lunch.  Maybe he was lying.  But, for one example, if we have a picture showing that he was indeed on the front steps seconds after the murder, that verifies his alibi.  He didn't do it.  The Warren Report collapses.  Something is needed to replace it.  

The Darnell and Wiegman films may be that proof.

I read your piece on kennedysandking and liked it.  Reminds me of the sort of logic Salandria was so good at.

[Roger Odisio]

9 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

My only quibble is...the need to "exonerate" LHO. 

There is plenty to suggest LHO was a CIA asset, inside the TSBD, and the JFKA was a CIA hit in part from the TSBD, and that LHO is nowhere to be seen when shots rang out. 

It is possible (I think likely) LHO was a witting or unwitting participant in the JFKA.

LHO going home and getting a gun and hiding in a theater do not suggest un-involvement in the JFKA.

Just IMHO....

 

When I say exonerate Oswald, I mean of the crime of shooting JFK.  Whether he was somehow involved in the plot, witting or unwitting, is of much less importance.  I don't plan to spend any of my limited time on earth trying to figure out where, if anywhere, he fit into the plan as a low level functionary. 

The descendants  of the guys who planned, carried out, and covered up the murder solidified their control of the government that day, and are still in charge. To get at what they have done to the country, it's important to first understand the origin of that control.  After overthrowing foreign governments and killing leaders, they came home to get JFK who was the major impediment they faced.

[Cory Santos]

Question, what if they show Oswald did it on behalf of Russia and Cuba and US government merely covered up the Russia Cuba part just to keep us out of a nuclear war?   Would conspiracy theorists be satisfied?   They would have their conspiracy and coverup.   Or, alternatively, must the conspirators at all cost be the US government to the conspiracy theorist?  I ask this because sometimes reading posts it seems nothing other than “the government did it” would suffice some people which makes me wonder where that comes from.  Just an observation I brought up with Cliff the other day over tea and crumpets.   

[Paul Jolliffe]

7 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

JM-

Well...obviously, anyone who questions the evidence in the JFKA is on solid footing. I cannot say you are wrong, and you are expert on the topic. 

Just IMHO....

On the other hand, LHO was arrested in front of multiple witnesses, who said he was armed. The story about him drawing his weapon may be hyperbole. It could be the witnesses are lying. 

LHO in interrogation said he went home to get his gun as "that is what boys do." Again, there is no recording of that, and as you know, transcripts of LHO's interrogations are sketchy. So, it could be a false transcript. 

Where I respectfully depart from you...well, is on the size of the pre-event and immediate post-event JFKA conspiracy. 

I am biased. If I were planning such a risky endeavor (I abhor violence and never would, btw) I would only trust close confederates, men I had soldiered with for years, or were heavily vouched for, and in very small numbers, as in less than you can count on one hand missing fingers. 

After the JFKA, there was a lot of complicity, falling into line, fear of being clumped in with communists or LHO, and looking askance as evidence was enhanced to meet the narrative (a narrative most believed was true). 

But..for me, explanations of the JFKA that require witting pre-event or immediate post-event involvement of many people across many agencies, federal and local...are not compelling. 

The DPD officers said when they arrested LHO he was armed. Signed affidavits. Maybe it was all a lie. 

 

 

 

"On the other hand, LHO was arrested in front of multiple witnesses, who said he was armed. The story about him drawing his weapon may be hyperbole. It could be the witnesses are lying."

Ben,

I agree with you that our man "Oswald" almost certainly did have some firearm on him when he was confronted by the DPD in the Texas Theater. However, I strongly doubt his story as to how he came to have it (he went to 1026 N. Beckley to retrieve it because "that is what boys do.") No, that is NOT how he came to have it - there is exactly zero evidence he ever ordered, paid for, received (and stored any gun at that address) ever. 

So how did "Oswald" wind up with a handgun inside the theater? My guess is that he was given it by his contact in the theater, the person he was seeking. He did not know this person by sight - thus his seat-hopping before the movie routine - but he connected with this person, and they slipped it to him. 

Who was it?

Well, the only evidence we have is the statement by patron Jack Davis who said that "Oswald" last sat next to a pregnant woman who then walked back to the lobby. We know that the DPD received numerous calls from inside the theater claiming that their suspect had arrived, armed with a shotgun over his shoulder. (We also know that the DPD tapes of those calls have disappeared, of course.)

Ludicrous, yet those repeated calls (not from Julia Postal) prompted the DPD to react quickly. Did the pregnant woman make these calls to the DPD, once our "Oswald" had safely arrived and once she had slipped him the revolver?

That's my guess. 

After all, what kind of actual "pregnant woman" goes to see a war movie on a matinee Friday by herself?

None - she was an intelligence operative, whoever she was, and her assignment was to get a revolver into our "Oswald's" hands so the DPD could confront an armed suspect.

Our "Oswald" figured that part out - that's why he claimed later that it had been "planted" on him.

(Whether it was the revolver used in the Tippit killing is doubtful - I agree with Tom Gramm above that the Texas Theater revolver was probably swapped later with the Tippit revolver once the DPD had their hands on both guns.)

[Benjamin Cole]

4 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

"On the other hand, LHO was arrested in front of multiple witnesses, who said he was armed. The story about him drawing his weapon may be hyperbole. It could be the witnesses are lying."

Ben,

I agree with you that our man "Oswald" almost certainly did have some firearm on him when he was confronted by the DPD in the Texas Theater. However, I strongly doubt his story as to how he came to have it (he went to 1026 N. Beckley to retrieve it because "that is what boys do.") No, that is NOT how he came to have it - there is exactly zero evidence he ever ordered, paid for, received (and stored any gun at that address) ever. 

So how did "Oswald" wind up with a handgun inside the theater? My guess is that he was given it by his contact in the theater, the person he was seeking. He did not know this person by sight - thus his seat-hopping before the movie routine - but he connected with this person, and they slipped it to him. 

Who was it?

Well, the only evidence we have is the statement by patron Jack Davis who said that "Oswald" last sat next to a pregnant woman who then walked back to the lobby. We know that the DPD received numerous calls from inside the theater claiming that their suspect had arrived, armed with a shotgun over his shoulder. (We also know that the DPD tapes of those calls have disappeared, of course.)

Ludicrous, yet those repeated calls (not from Julia Postal) prompted the DPD to react quickly. Did the pregnant woman make these calls to the DPD, once our "Oswald" had safely arrived and once she had slipped him the revolver?

That's my guess. 

After all, what kind of actual "pregnant woman" goes to see a war movie on a matinee Friday by herself?

None - she was an intelligence operative, whoever she was, and her assignment was to get a revolver into our "Oswald's" hands so the DPD could confront an armed suspect.

Our "Oswald" figured that part out - that's why he claimed later that it had been "planted" on him.

(Whether it was the revolver used in the Tippit killing is doubtful - I agree with Tom Gramm above that the Texas Theater revolver was probably swapped later with the Tippit revolver once the DPD had their hands on both guns.)

The scenario you limn may be correct. The problem is, other highly intelligent people have posited other possibly correct scenarios also. 

We are all in the same boat: The WC-FBI did not properly investigate the JFKA back when leads were fresh, and LHO was murdered. 

I like the idea that the pregnant woman just had a pillow under her shirt. 

There was a woman behind a curtain at Southwestern Publishing, windows facing Elm St., who refused to unlock her door in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA. One could posit that in that time and place, using women as assassins would be a great ploy. Unsuspected. 

But...I can prove little. 

Just IMHO...

[Benjamin Cole]

6 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

When I say exonerate Oswald, I mean of the crime of shooting JFK.  Whether he was somehow involved in the plot, witting or unwitting, is of much less importance.  I don't plan to spend any of my limited time on earth trying to figure out where, if anywhere, he fit into the plan as a low level functionary. 

The descendants  of the guys who planned, carried out, and covered up the murder solidified their control of the government that day, and are still in charge. To get at what they have done to the country, it's important to first understand the origin of that control.  After overthrowing foreign governments and killing leaders, they came home to get JFK who was the major impediment they faced.

What if LHO, as a loyal soldier of the CIA, in fact participated in a CIA plot to murder JFK, and was one of the gunman? 

After all, we believe LHP was a CIA asset, and the CIA murdered JFK...is it not reasonable to suspect (not conclude) LHO was a key part of the JFKA? 

[Roger Odisio]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

What if LHO, as a loyal soldier of the CIA, in fact participated in a CIA plot to murder JFK, and was one of the gunman? 

After all, we believe LHP was a CIA asset, and the CIA murdered JFK...is it not reasonable to suspect (not conclude) LHO was a key part of the JFKA? 

No it's not, Ben.  We're talking CIA.  That had overthrown govts in Iran and Guatemala, killed Lamumba and I think Dag Hammarskjold, and tried to kill DeGaulle , all before getting to Kennedy (just a sample of their work).  That had a roster of shady characters and killers to call on from all over the world.  They're going depend on Oswald, a 24 year old kid with no previous murders, to do they're most important job?   

[Mark Knight]

Returning to the original premise of the thread...

My 42-year-old son and I have discussed this at length. I believe he correctly relates the concern level of his generation as "WGAF?" Indeed, besides those of us who were alive when the assassination occurred [and our numbers decrease daily], who truly gives a flip?

My son's point was that the perps, even if in their 20s in 1963, would be at least in their 80s now. A "life sentence" for an 85- or 90-year-old would mean exactly what? Or if someone is accused, and they point the finger at someone long dead who can't defend himself...to what end would we prosecute anyone? While I'd like to say that just knowing the 100% truth would be a value unto itself, how could we know at this point that what appears to be the truth actually IS the truth?

I favor knowing the truth simply for knowing the truth. But would that in itself prevent a future assassination? Doubtful. Other than simply knowing the truth, where's the value? At this point, if it wasn't Oswald acting alone [of which I have STRONG doubts], then the person or persons who did it actually got away with their crime.

In the 1880s, for example, the Democratic Party was pro-segregation. But by the 1960s they were leading the fight for civil rights. Do we punish the party for the 1880s after what they did in the 1960s? No, because it's not the same people. As far as the CIA, if we're still using the same sources and methods in 2022 that we did in 1962, shame on us! We all know that's simply not the case, and none of the spies from 1962 are still spying in 2022.

I'm afraid it's up to our generation. Because the following generations have already shifted into WGAF? mode.,

[Michaleen Kilroy]

4 hours ago, Mark Knight said:

I'm afraid it's up to our generation. Because the following generations have already shifted into WGAF? mode.,

Thanks, Mark. That’s kinda the discussion I was hoping to have. If the conspiracy-leaning among us got everything we wanted from the final records, what would it change if anything?

I have to say, it does feel like the intel agencies want to kick this can down the road until everyone who might care is dead for institutional self-preservation.  When that happens, the records will be released.

I’ve told my daughter even if I’m in a coma, tell me the news

[Kirk Gallaway]

36 minutes ago, Michaleen Kilroy said:

Thanks, Mark. That’s kinda the discussion I was hoping to have. If the conspiracy-leaning among us got everything we wanted from the final records, what would it change if anything?

Good to hear that Michael,That's the question I opined on because I thought that was the discussion you were trying to have. As far as passing this on to future generations, i think my son might  take stock on this  "national moment of unity" you were speculating about, but not as much my daughter though I tried to impress this equally on both of them.