David Lifton's latter-day claims

[Vince Palamara]

1:06:45 mark on the video---JFK's arm dropped off the ledge of Air Force One which is why Kennedy's arm was raised outward when on his back. Humes had to get up on top of JFK's body to force it down.

[James DiEugenio]

What about the leg sticking out of the limo on the way to Parkland?

Did he not have some off the wall idea that it was not Clint Hill's or Kennedy's?

He talked about this at some college in the Dakotas where he gave a speech at.

[Matthew Koch]

One continuity error I think DSL made was, RFK on the plane. I'm very certain there is video of RFK going up the stairs to Air Force 1 while everyone is going down it, and I'm almost positive I've read that in Manchester literature. This is an error that I have made before, when you don't talk to this stuff enough with other people with working knowledge that have competing views you can make a tiny error and start down a rabbit hole. That doesn't mean they are totally wrong, it just means they need to be refined. 

IMO the people focusing at David's probable errors, are looking at this in the wrong way, this is basically political science not science. DSL was a very out of the box and original thinker he took us from missing the dart board to hitting it with the body alteration idea. The fact that he didn't hit the bullseye is kinda how I see the criticisms. We don't know what the interviews and other stuff is. So, I think most critiques need to take that into account. 

 

[Vince Palamara]

Just now, James DiEugenio said:

What about the leg sticking out of the limo on the way to Parkland?

Did he not have some off the wall idea that it was not Clint Hill's or Kennedy's?

He talked about this at some college in the Dakotas where he gave a speech at.

He believes it was AGENT JOHN READY--?!?!?! Like I said: I am watching this video now and I am baffled by these ideas David was espousing. Like I said above, when I discovered that David uploaded a 14-part series just in late October 2022 and the videos had very few watches and almost no comments, I thought I would stitch them all together in one place (the number of likes and comments exceeds all 14 individual parts combined on Lifton's newly-minted You Tube channel). However, in my zeal to get these out to the wider public, I didn't have the chance to watch them (the whole video). This is actually shocking (in a bad way) all these zany notions that Lifton believed.

[James DiEugenio]

Vince, he is saying there were four people in the back seat of the car?

That would mean a radical alteration of the Z film then, right?

[Vince Palamara]

Just now, James DiEugenio said:

Vince, he is saying there were four people in the back seat of the car?

That would mean a radical alteration of the Z film then, right?

Yes. I am stunned (again, in a bad way) that Lifton believed this.

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, Vince Palamara said:

I confess that I stitched the 14-part series together without watching it first. I don't think it does David's legacy well at all.

It doesn't at first sight, but hiding it wouldn't do it any good either.

On the contrary, someday someone could dig it up to really use it against him (and some of his good work).  Now we can say, this was never hidden and no secret at al (in the end, this is always better).

So, as long as it comes with a correct intro, I see no harm.

It won't change the way sensible people think of him.

[Pat Speer]

10 minutes ago, Matthew Koch said:

One continuity error I think DSL made was, RFK on the plane. I'm very certain there is video of RFK going up the stairs to Air Force 1 while everyone is going down it, and I'm almost positive I've read that in Manchester literature. This is an error that I have made before, when you don't talk to this stuff enough with other people with working knowledge that have competing views you can make a tiny error and start down a rabbit hole. That doesn't mean they are totally wrong, it just means they need to be refined. 

IMO the people focusing at David's probable errors, are looking at this in the wrong way, this is basically political science not science. DSL was a very out of the box and original thinker he took us from missing the dart board to hitting it with the body alteration idea. The fact that he didn't hit the bullseye is kinda how I see the criticisms. We don't know what the interviews and other stuff is. So, I think most critiques need to take that into account. 

 

I think we can agree that this thread should be on David's latter-day claims, and not Best Evidence. In Best Evidence David latched onto a wild theory, and then supported it. He offered up these latter-day claims without offering any real support. 

[Vince Palamara]

1 minute ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

It doesn't at first sight, but hiding it wouldn't do it any good either.

On the contrary, someday someone could dig it up to really use it against him (and some of his good work).  Now we can say, this was never hidden and no secret at al (in the end, this is always better).

So, as long as it comes with a correct intro, I see no harm.

It won't change the way sensible people think of him.

David sounds as eloquent and intelligent as ever on this video series. Ultimately, he will be judged on Best Evidence. Since I highly doubt there would be a big publisher and media blitz for his posthumously published follow up book, there will be little damage to his reputation from some of these way-out ideas.

[Pat Speer]

9 minutes ago, Vince Palamara said:

Yes. I am stunned (again, in a bad way) that Lifton believed this.

One of the problems with David's earlier theories was that he failed to account for Connally's back wound. This was discussed on this forum. The "Godzilla" theory, as I understand it, was in part David's explanation for Connally's back wound. As I understand it, he suspected Connally was accidentally wounded by Ready, after Ready jumped into the car. 

This is what I've been talking about. David's latter-day theories solved one problem while creating a whole slew of others. 

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Vince, he is saying there were four people in the back seat of the car?

That would mean a radical alteration of the Z film then, right?

No, Lifton thinks (thought) that SS agent John Ready "threw himself" into the President's car after the shooting started (per a witness who talked to Lifton at some point).

And then---get this---Ready is the one who shot John Connally!! I mentioned this yesterday in another thread.

I'll replay my prior post here:

----------------------------------------

A brief recap of this 14-part video series featuring David S. Lifton, which was recorded in November of 2013:

Here's a partial list of some of the preposterous things that Mr. Lifton believed happened on November 22, 1963:

1.) A Secret Service agent was, indeed, killed on 11/22/63. And the body of this dead SS agent was then placed on board Air Force One at Love Field in Dallas. And apparently nobody noticed this occurring at all.

2.) All of the films taken in Dealey Plaza on November 22 were altered/faked (e.g., the Zapruder Film, the Nix Film, the Muchmore Film, etc.). A direct quote from David Lifton in 2013: "All the films have been altered."

3.) Prior to departing Dallas, JFK's body was evidently (per Lifton) placed on some sort of "ledge" in the cargo area of Air Force One, and then, sometime during the flight, his body fell from this ledge, resulting in a situation where one of JFK's arms was left dangling toward the floor of the cargo hold. And as a result of this, at the start of the autopsy at Bethesda, Kennedy's arm (due to the onset of rigor mortis) was sticking up, stiff as a board, and could not be lowered until Dr. Humes actually got up on the autopsy table (per Lifton's account) and forced the stiffened arm down by JFK's side.

4.) To avoid the prying eyes of the media, Air Force One made an unscheduled stop near the end of the runway after landing at Andrews Air Force Base. This was done so that JFK's corpse could be secretly taken out of the airplane's cargo hold and transferred to a helicopter.

5.) Secret Service agent John Ready "threw himself" into the Presidential limousine after the shooting, and (according to Mr. Lifton) it is Ready's foot we see sticking out of the back seat of the car in the David Miller photograph.

For this theory of Lifton's to be correct, it would mean that John Ready lied in this report.

6.) Quoting David Lifton in 2013: "He [John Connally] got shot as a result of this fight in the car [with Secret Service agent John Ready]."

I think it's now time for one of these:

WTF?!

So now we know how David Lifton managed to keep John Connally from sustaining any wounds from the rear during the period when the assassination of JFK was taking place on Elm Street. He (Lifton) merely invented this fantasy story about Secret Service agent John Ready leaping into the limousine and shooting Connally. And then John Connally, in all of his many post-1963 interviews, decided to never once mention this "fight" that he had with Ready.

Oh, brother.

7.) Lifton, as of 2013, apparently believed that President Kennedy's wounds were altered (with lightning-like speed evidently) while JFK was still aboard Air Force One at Love Field in Dallas.

I had always thought Lifton believed that the body-altering surgery was performed at Walter Reed Hospital. But I guess David decided to change the location of that part of his fanciful tale. ~shrug~

8.) Lee Harvey Oswald did, indeed, fire a rifle from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22nd....but David Lifton thinks it was merely a "mock attack" and Lee was only firing "blanks".

Well, have you had enough of this fantasy stuff for today?

Yeah, me too.
 

Edited December 10, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Vince Palamara]

Just now, Pat Speer said:

One of the problems with David's earlier theories was that he failed to account for Connally's back wound. This was discussed on this forum. The "Godzilla" theory, as I understand it, was in part David's explanation for Connally's back wound. As I understand it, he suspected Connally was accidentally wounded by Ready, after Ready jumped into the car. 

This is what I've been talking about. David's latter-day theories solved one problem while creating a whole slew of others. 

Wow; just wow. There is zero evidence that Ready was ever in the limo and his report debunks the notion.

[Vince Palamara]

Just now, David Von Pein said:

No, Lifton thinks (thought) that John Ready (SS Agent) "threw himself into the President's car " (per a witness who talked to Lifton at some point).

And then---get this---Ready is the one who shot John Connally!! I mentioned this yesterday in another thread, but I guess nobody cared to respond. So I'll replay my post here:

 

A brief recap of this 14-part video series featuring David S. Lifton, which was recorded in November of 2013:

Here's a partial list of some of the preposterous things that Mr. Lifton believed happened on November 22, 1963:

1.) A Secret Service agent was, indeed, killed on 11/22/63. And the body of this dead SS agent was then placed on board Air Force One at Love Field in Dallas. And apparently nobody noticed this occurring at all.

2.) All of the films taken in Dealey Plaza on November 22 were altered/faked (e.g., the Zapruder Film, the Nix Film, the Muchmore Film, etc.). A direct quote from David Lifton in 2013: "All the films have been altered."

3.) Prior to departing Dallas, JFK's body was evidently (per Lifton) placed on some sort of "ledge" in the cargo area of Air Force One, and then, sometime during the flight, his body fell from this ledge, resulting in a situation where one of JFK's arms was left dangling toward the floor of the cargo hold. And as a result of this, at the start of the autopsy at Bethesda, Kennedy's arm (due to the onset of rigor mortis) was sticking up, stiff as a board, and could not be lowered until Dr. Humes actually got up on the autopsy table (per Lifton's account) and forced the stiffened arm down by JFK's side.

4.) To avoid the prying eyes of the media, Air Force One made an unscheduled stop near the end of the runway after landing at Andrews Air Force Base. This was done so that JFK's corpse could be secretly taken out of the airplane's cargo hold and transferred to a helicopter.

5.) Secret Service agent John Ready "threw himself" into the Presidential limousine after the shooting, and (according to Mr. Lifton) it is Ready's foot we see sticking out of the back seat of the car in the David Miller photograph.

For this theory of Lifton's to be correct, it would mean that John Ready lied in this report.

6.) Quoting David Lifton in 2013: "He [John Connally] got shot as a result of this fight in the car [with Secret Service agent John Ready]."

I think it's now time for one of these:

WTF?!

So now we know how David Lifton managed to keep John Connally from sustaining any wounds from the rear during the period when the assassination of JFK was taking place on Elm Street. He (Lifton) merely invented this fantasy story about Secret Service agent John Ready leaping into the limousine and shooting Connally. And then John Connally, in all of his many post-1963 interviews, decided to never once mention this "fight" that he had with Ready.

Oh, brother.

7.) Lifton, as of 2013, apparently believed that President Kennedy's wounds were altered (with lightning-like speed evidently) while JFK was still aboard Air Force One at Love Field in Dallas.

I had always thought Lifton believed that the body-altering surgery was performed at Walter Reed Hospital. But I guess David decided to change the location of that part of his fanciful tale. ~shrug~

8.) Lee Harvey Oswald did, indeed, fire a rifle from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22nd....but David Lifton thinks it was merely a "mock attack" and Lee was only firing "blanks".

Well, have you had enough of this fantasy stuff for today?

Yeah, me too.
 

 

 

 

Dave- I am stunned that Lifton espoused most of these things!

[Vince Palamara]

1 minute ago, Vince Palamara said:

Wow; just wow. There is zero evidence that Ready was ever in the limo and his report debunks the notion.

Ready's report: sa-ready.html (jfk-assassination.net)

[Pat Speer]

To be clear, as one who spoke to Lifton on occasion, sometimes for as much as an hour, he was quite lucid when discussing the history of the case, and his own investigation of the case. He jumped the shark, however, whenever he started musing on what "really" happened. He could conjure up something--like Ready's fight with Connally--which no one witnessed--and act as though it made perfect sense.