David Lifton's latter-day claims

[David Von Pein]

16 minutes ago, Vince Palamara said:

Dave- I am stunned that Lifton espoused most of these things!

I'm not too stunned really. I say that mainly because of all of the crazy nonsense that David Lifton has been promoting for many years now---and a lot of it right on this very forum. Just check out my battles with him, which go back to 2011 (many of them which started here at the EF):

Another kooky idea Lifton had is that UPI's Merriman Smith knew about the Dealey Plaza shooting in advance, and that Smith was part of a post-assassination cover-up.

Edited December 10, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Matthew Koch]

8 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

I think we can agree that this thread should be on David's latter-day claims, and not Best Evidence. In Best Evidence David latched onto a wild theory, and then supported it. He offered up these latter-day claims without offering any real support. 

I binged watched it in 3hrs the day it was posted, and he says about 10 times that he conducted filmed interviews that will be used to support the book or has original newspaper articles etc. Your critismims remind me of the Dictabelt... biased. I feel like you're trying to do a John McAdams; "he's not as rational a thinker as me." and throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

[Vince Palamara]

1 minute ago, Pat Speer said:

To be clear, as one who spoke to Lifton on occasion, sometimes for as much as an hour, he was quite lucid when discussing the history of the case, and his own investigation of the case. He jumped the shark, however, whenever he started musing on what "really" happened. He could conjure up something--like Ready's fight with Connally--which no one witnessed--and act as though it made perfect sense. 

His latter-day musings reminds one of his paper mache trees and bunkers on the knoll stuff from the 1960's.

[Pat Speer]

53 minutes ago, Matthew Koch said:

I binged watched it in 3hrs the day it was posted, and he says about 10 times that he conducted filmed interviews that will be used to support the book or has original newspaper articles etc. Your critismims remind me of the Dictabelt... biased. I feel like you're trying to do a John McAdams; "he's not as rational a thinker as me." and throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

Uhh...no. It is your bias that is evident. As stated, I asked David a number of times if he had any evidence to support some of his wilder theories, and he avoided the question, and instead repeated that it made sense. He was working backwards--"I need to explain how Connally got shot"--and then conjuring up a scenario that explained it...even though there was no evidentiary support. 

When you take the time and study the case, and read hundreds of interviews about what happened that day--you get a feel for what is plausible and what is not. And it is simply not plausible that a secret service agent jumped into the limo and physically fought with Connally. Do you believe otherwise? 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

David sounds as eloquent and intelligent as ever on this video series. Ultimately, he will be judged on Best Evidence. Since I highly doubt there would be a big publisher and media blitz for his posthumously published follow up book, there will be little damage to his reputation from some of these way-out ideas.

The man was who he was, all-included.

I don't know if he harmed anyone, I don't think so.  Yes he had some strange ideas.

But he his gone now, so let's all show some respect, some will remember speaking to him, others will remember discussions with him. Nothing wrong in sharing memories, that's how humans usually deal with death.

That's all over en out now,  may he rest in peace... after all he was part of this community.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Pat Speer]

57 minutes ago, Vince Palamara said:

His latter-day musings reminds one of his paper mache trees and bunkers on the knoll stuff from the 1960's.

Yes, he was a creative thinker from the get-go. But he had a stretch where he tried to support his theories. At the end, he just didn't bother. 

[James DiEugenio]

I am really kind of stunned by this.

Ready jumped in the limo and shot JBC?

And JBC and his wife never noticed it?

[Matthew Koch]

17 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Uhh...no. It is your bias that is evident. As stated, I asked David a number of times if he had any evidence to support some of his wilder theories, and he avoided the question, and instead repeated that it made sense. He was working backwards--"I need to explain how Connally got shot"--and then conjuring up a scenario that explained it...even though there was no evidentiary support. 

When you take the time and study the case, and read hundreds of interviews about what happened that day--you get a feel for what is plausible and what is not. And it is simply not plausible that a secret service agent jumped into the limo and physically fought with Connally. Do you believe otherwise? 

I'm going to wait to see all of the evidence before I pass judgement

[Pat Speer]

5 minutes ago, Matthew Koch said:

I'm going to wait to see all of the evidence before I pass judgement

What evidence could there be that would outweigh dozens of contemporary eyewitness statements--which David and others have always said outweighs statements made decades later? 

[Matthew Koch]

7 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

What evidence could there be that would outweigh dozens of contemporary eyewitness statements--which David and others have always said outweighs statements made decades later? 

Hey we differ on a lot of things Pat, I think this thread is incredibly disrespectful and in poor taste and I think the people only concerned with this manuscript or his later day claims are being rather ghoulish considering that David isn't even buried yet. I'll put this in terms you can understand Pat you are acting like a missionary on a mission right now. I don't know what David might have I hear there is a storage locker full. I don't believe in alot of David Icke has to say but I think it's rather obvious that you are doing the same thing people do with his presentation and are taking it out of context without having heard the whole case.. sorry you can't understand that. 

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Matthew Koch said:

I'm going to wait to see all of the evidence before I pass judgement.

I can't wait to see the evidence in "Final Charade" that will back up (and prove) this quote of David Lifton's:

"He [John Connally] got shot as a result of this fight in the car [with Secret Service agent John Ready]." -- David S. Lifton; November 2013

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

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Edited December 11, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Pat Speer]

1 minute ago, Matthew Koch said:

Hey we differ on a lot of things Pat, I think this thread is incredibly disrespectful and in poor taste and I think the people only concerned with this manuscript or his later day claims are being rather ghoulish considering that David isn't even buried yet. I'll put this in terms you can understand Pat you are acting like a missionary on a mission right now. I don't know what David might have I hear there is a storage locker full. I don't believe in alot of David Icke has to say but I think it's rather obvious that you are doing the same thing people do with his presentation and are taking it out of context without having heard the whole case.. sorry you can't understand that. 

Ok, you're acting as though David was someone I just heard about. I knew the guy. He was well-known in the research community. I am being respectful, IMO. I would have withheld any criticism of David's latter-day theories for a month or so, but Vince posted links to those videos in which some of the theories are discussed. So I suggested we discuss these theories in a separate thread, so as not to upset those mourning him on the original thread. 

[Eddy Bainbridge]

I think DL's great legacy is that he posited a theory to resolve the incredible discrepancy in the state of Kennedy's head from Parkland to the Bethesda photographic/xray evidence. I think there absolutely has to be an explanation for the discrepancy. Although I firmly believe Lifton did not get to the bottom of it, I think he got closer than most.

 

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

So I suggested we discuss these theories in a separate thread, so as not to upset those mourning him on the original thread. 

That was a very good suggestion.    In the old days there was a mourning period,  so the family and friends could focus on dealing with the loss (and not being distracted from whatever).  

Of course, there is absolutely nothing wrong in sharing memories here (funny and others, just keeping it respectful), it often helps in the mourning process. 

I hoped everybody would show some respect, but there will always be someone that can not resist being provocative (he always has and always will I guess), whatever, best to ignore him I think