David Lifton's latter-day claims

[Richard Price]

14 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

Clint Hill's foot-another silly thing to "debate":

Vince (and all), I will not debate Hill's foot as I do not have a position on what is going on at this point.  You and others have, I hope realized that in the first two pictures of Hill splayed out over the limo his left leg/foot is across the trunk area.  In the third picture it is now his right leg hanging across the trunk.  Picture number four - where are his legs - either of them?  It doesn't appear to be enough room for them between the seat and his visible torso, so how is he twisted into this position?

[David Von Pein]

......

Edited December 12, 2022 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Vince Palamara said:

They were moving at a very high rate of speed, so everyone moved into the follow-up car. DSL has nothing.

That's right, Vince.

And here's SS Agent John Ready telling us that very thing about getting inside the SS follow-up car (emphasis is mine):

"I left the follow-up car in the direction of the President's car but was recalled by ATSAIC Emory Roberts as the cars increased their speeds. I got back on the car and seated myself beside Mr. Roberts in the right front seat."

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-ready.htm

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

And here's what SS Agent Paul Landis said in his very detailed and lengthy official Secret Service report, much of which, if we're to believe what David S. Lifton has said during his November 2013 video interview, is nothing but one big lie (emphasis is DVP's):

"After we rode under the overpass I again looked at the President's car and saw Special Agent Clint Hill lieing [sic] across the trunk. He was looking back towards the Follow-up car shaking his head back and forth and gave a thumbs-down sign with his hand. ATSAIC Roberts asked if anyone got the exact time of the shooting and someone said "about 12:30 p.m."; then someone told me to get inside the car and pulled me by the arm. My sun glasses fell off and Special Agent Bennett handed them to me. By now we were on an Expressway and a few people were standing in spots along the way waving as we went by. ATSAIC Roberts was telling the other agents in the Follow-up car to cover Vice President Johnson as soon as we stopped. Sometime around 12:37 p.m. we arrived at Parkland Memorial Hospital. I immediately ran to the left rear side of the President's car, reached over and tried to help Mrs. Kennedy up by taking hold of her shoulders. She did not want to let go of President Kennedy whose head she held in her lap and she was bending over him."

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-landi.htm

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Vince Palamara]

7 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

And here's what SS Agent Paul Landis said in his very detailed and lengthy official Secret Service report which he wrote on November 27, 1963, much of which, if we're to believe what David S. Lifton has said during his November 2013 video interview, is nothing but one big lie (emphasis is DVP's):

"After we rode under the overpass I again looked at the President's car and saw Special Agent Clint Hill lieing [sic] across the trunk. He was looking back towards the Follow-up car shaking his head back and forth and gave a thumbs-down sign with his hand. ATSAIC Roberts asked if anyone got the exact time of the shooting and someone said "about 12:30 p.m."; then someone told me to get inside the car and pulled me by the arm. My sun glasses fell off and Special Agent Bennett handed them to me. By now we were on an Expressway and a few people were standing in spots along the way waving as we went by. ATSAIC Roberts was telling the other agents in the Follow-up car to cover Vice President Johnson as soon as we stopped. Sometime around 12:37 p.m. we arrived at Parkland Memorial Hospital. I immediately ran to the left rear side of the President's car, reached over and tried to help Mrs. Kennedy up by taking hold of her shoulders. She did not want to let go of President Kennedy whose head she held in her lap and she was bending over him."

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-landi.htm

 

It is as if Lifton was not familiar with the Secret Service reports in Volume 18 or some of the photos.

[David Von Pein]

FYI....

Here's a radio interview I saved in 2013 featuring SS Agent Paul Landis (and SS Agent Ron Pontius also is heard):

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/Paul Landis Interview (November 23, 2013)

 

[Vince Palamara]

28 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

FYI....

Here's a radio interview I saved in 2013 featuring SS Agent Paul Landis (and SS Agent Ron Pontius also is heard):

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/Paul Landis Interview (November 23, 2013)

 

Thanks!

[Pat Speer]

4 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

It is as if Lifton was not familiar with the Secret Service reports in Volume 18 or some of the photos.

I'm almost certain he was aware of all of it. I've been trying to stress that David was a creative thinker. In the eyes of many, he'd successfully argued that the medical evidence was not what we'd been told and shown. I believe he was looking to do the same with the evidence regarding the shooting. He wasn't relying on the photos, or the official documents. He was looking at over-looked or ignored newspaper articles and interviews. He was creating an alternate story, almost from scratch. 

As stated, he'd call me up and tell me some pretty wild stuff, then swear me to silence and threaten my life. At the time, I assumed he was doing so because he thought what he'd told me was explosive information, and he wanted to make sure he owned it when it came out. But now I'm starting to wonder if he didn't want it to come out because it wasn't fully formed yet, and he didn't want to be wedded to something he would later disavow.

But if this is so, then why did he share so much of this supposedly top-secret stuff in filmed interviews? 

I'm perplexed. 

[Vince Palamara]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

I'm almost certain he was aware of all of it. I've been trying to stress that David was a creative thinker. In the eyes of many, he'd successfully argued that the medical evidence was not what we'd been told and shown. I believe he was looking to do the same with the evidence regarding the shooting. He wasn't relying on the photos, or the official documents. He was looking at over-looked or ignored newspaper articles and interviews. He was creating an alternate story, almost from scratch. 

As stated, he'd call me up and tell me some pretty wild stuff, then swear me to silence and threaten my life. At the time, I assumed he was doing so because he thought what he'd told me was explosive information, and he wanted to make sure he owned it when it came out. But now I'm starting to wonder if he didn't want it to come out because it wasn't fully formed yet, and he didn't want to be wedded to something he would later disavow.

But if this is so, then why did he share so much of this supposedly top-secret stuff in filmed interviews? 

I'm perplexed. 

I am seriously thinking that, as with Harry Livingstone, David Lifton started to "lose the plot", "couldn't see the forest from the trees", etc. Harry believed all the films were altered. Lifton believed all the films were altered. Both started to adopt extreme views on the case. Both were lifelong bachelors- this is important because I firmly believe that, without "a life", you start to become bitter, paranoid, see conspiracies in your soup, etc. James Fetzer is this way, as well (despite being married, so I guess there are exceptions to the rule).

I don't know: I am married and I have hobbies and interests away from this (and I am retired from active research-I have taken things as far as they can go with my research: 5 books in 8 years, several DVD/Blu Ray productions [including one to come in 2023], etc.). I see things from both sides of the case, am very open minded (I know, I know- to my downfall once because I flirted with the "dark side" in 2007) and, most important of all, I SEE HOW THINGS LOOK FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF JOHN Q. PUBLIC/non-researchers. The public would think we were insane if we were dismissing our case out of court, so to speak: "all the films are altered! All the photos are altered! All the evidence is crooked! You can't trust anyone." Then we become the loons, UFO people and "conspiracy theorists" those in the MSM label us as.

But back to the main point: I believe the Lifton circa 1963-2000ish wouldn't have espoused some (all?) of these latter-day ideas. But, having devoted his life to the case with seemingly no vent/no filter, the "conspiracies in your soup" factor comes sharply into focus (FWIW, there was a time when Livingstone and even Fetzer weren't as way out as they became: the Fetzer pre-9/11 was fairly well grounded. The Livingstone I knew in 1991-1993 was relatively grounded).

Think about it: do professional athletes "live" their profession 24/7 for a lifetime? No- there is an off-season, an end to their careers, etc. I personally think devoting one's life to this is not a healthy thing. Some of these latter-day ideas of David's are further proof of this.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Vince Palamara

[Vince Palamara]

5 minutes ago, Vince Palamara said:

I am seriously thinking that, as with Harry Livingstone, David Lifton started to "lose the plot", "couldn't see the forest from the trees", etc. Harry believed all the films were altered. Lifton believed all the films were altered. Both started to adopt extreme views on the case. Both were lifelong bachelors- this is important because I firmly believe that, without "a life", you start to become bitter, paranoid, see conspiracies in your soap, etc. James Fetzer is this way, as well (despite being married, so I guess there are exceptions to the rule).

I don't know: I am married and I have hobbies and interests away from this (and I am retired from active research-I have taken things as far as they can go with my research: 5 books in 8 years, several DVD/Blu Ray productions [including one to come in 2023], etc.). I see things from both sides of the case, am very open minded (I know, I know- to my downfall once because I flirted with the "dark side" in 2007) and, most important of all, I SEE HOW THINGS LOOK FROM JOHN Q. PUBLIC/non-researchers. The public would think we were insane if we were dismissing our case out of court, so to speak: "all the films are altered! All the photos are altered! All the evidence is crooked! You can't trust anyone." Then we become the loons, UFO people and "conspiracy theorists" those in the MSM label us as.

But back to the main point: I believe the Lifton circa 1963-2000ish wouldn't have espoused some (all?) of these latter-day ideas. But, having devoted his life to the case with seemingly no vent/no filter, the "conspiracies in your soup" factor comes sharply into focus (FWIW, there was a time when Livingstone and even Fetzer weren't as way out as they became: the Fetzer pre-9/11 was fairly well grounded. The Livingstone I knew in 1991-1993 was relatively grounded).

Think about it: do professional athletes "live" their profession 24/7 for a lifetime? No- there is an off-season, an end to their careers, etc. I personally think devoting one's life to this is not a healthy thing. Some of these latter-day ideas of David's are further proof of this.

Also: IMHO, David waited waaaay too long to come out with his sequel. This is why he lost any contract to publish a follow-up and pursued a GOFUND ME page to put it out. If he would published 1982-2003ish, it would have been huge and he would have found a publisher with no problem. Ultimately, David was like a music artist with a massive hit: a one-hit wonder that record companies forgot about. What have you done for us lately? 1980/1981 is very ancient history.

 

And as a wise man once said, "There comes a time for a sculptor to put down his chisel."

Edited December 12, 2022 by Vince Palamara

[James DiEugenio]

Pat:

What was it he swore you to secrecy about until your or his deat?

Since he has passed on, it does not apply.

Was it the Ready/Connally fight in the limo where JBC got shot?

[Ron Bulman]

On 12/11/2022 at 9:49 AM, Matthew Koch said:

I used to think this was pretty far out but we've basically have confirmation about Hawkeye Works. 

No one is right about everything, David believed that the films were altered and that the witnesses were describing events that are not on the film and photo record. So people citing the film and photo record maybe should re watch this video and be less critical until the citation comes out. 

 

I had never seen this.  It's very interesting.  First, David is almost animated in it.  I know he is on a time limit, has to leave to catch a plane, but as he was born in New York I believe, he comes off as the fast taking New Yorker in this.  Not quite so much in the little bit else of him speaking I've seen.  He packs a lot of info in here.

I'd read a little somewhere on here in the last few days about him seeing the z-film in the mid 60's.  Then researching and finding out about optical printers and their capabilities in 1963.  Which he talks about here.  Along with the Rochester Labs.  Doug Horne having to change the name of Hawkeye Works to Eagle Eye Works and more.  The black patch over the back of the head wound in the z-film and removal of the limo stop, 3.5 - 7 seconds = 160 - 200 frames (?).

Then he goes into dealing with then jousting with Rober Groden in the latter 60's over the z-film.  Groden's resistance to the possibility of it being altered.  I never knew about any of that.

LBJ rewarding Jack Valenti for possible help in processing the z-film with support for him becoming president of the Motion Picture Association.  Consequently, nobody who wanted a job in Hollwood crossed Valenti regarding the authenticity of the z-film in existence.  This relates to LBJ consulting Abe Fortas who recommended Valenti for assistance regarding the need for alteration.  I still lean towards the Secret Service - CIA controlling/taking care of the alterations.  I don't think they would have relied on the new president for this.

He claims he was the first one to notice witness testimony of a limo stop or slow down to almost a stop.  Then to look for other's statements or testimony to such and compile a list.

He also found a Dallas Morning News article from one or two days after the assassination urging people who had taken pictures or film of it to bring them in for development to one or two particular facilities.  

At one point he goes into the ARRB not wanting to step on Gary Mack's toes.  That they were afraid of Mack publicly accusing them of investigating, which they were not supposed to do (but Doug Horne did anyway!).

Like I said, he's animated in this.  Way more than I can summarize here.  Worth the watch.

[Pat Speer]

On 12/12/2022 at 2:17 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Pat:

What was it he swore you to secrecy about until your or his deat?

Since he has passed on, it does not apply.

Was it the Ready/Connally fight in the limo where JBC got shot?

He went on for most of an hour about the shooting scenario, and what he now believed was the original plan. I couldn't follow all of it. I do remember that he stressed how the wounding of Connally had changed everything, since the plan had been for JFK's body to be put in an ambulance, where his wounds could be changed before reaching Parkland. I think it was while discussing this point that he alerted me to his now fervent belief some of the Parkland doctors--the very men whose original statements had fueled his fire in the 60's, but who later dismissed his theories--were in on it. I remember saying "You mean they were told to change their testimony later" or something like that, but he corrected me, and told me he thought they were part of the original plan and had foreknowledge of the shooting. I was dumbfounded. I am pretty sure he went on for another 15-20 minutes, and that I tried to follow along, but I think the recorder in my brain broke when he told me he thought they were part of the plot. 

P.S. I don't know if it's important but I remember for certain the name of one of the doctors he'd come to suspect, and am pretty sure of another, and checked with another researcher who'd spoken to Lifton recently, and he added two more to the list. So I'm pretty sure Lifton had taken from claiming the Parkland doctors were the best witnesses and the key to understanding the president's wounds to saying four of these doctors were not just fibbers, but part of the plot. 

Now, I should stress that his speech wasn't slurred or anything like that. He seemed to be clear of mind. In my take he'd simply spent too much time in the rabbit hole. 

P.P.S. The Ready/Connally fight was something I'd heard from someone else, but apparently David mentioned something about it in one of these videos, so I repeated what I'd heard to help explain the reference. As stated. I suspect some of this stuff wouldn't have made it into David's book, but there's just so much of it that it seems certain a lot of it would have made it. 

Edited December 14, 2022 by Pat Speer

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks Pat.

[Adam Johnson]

Vince and DVP,

DVP SAID:

That's right, Vince.

And here's SS Agent John Ready telling us that very thing about getting inside the SS follow-up car (emphasis is mine):

"I left the follow-up car in the direction of the President's car but was recalled by ATSAIC Emory Roberts as the cars increased their speeds. I got back on the car and seated myself beside Mr. Roberts in the right front seat."

WHERE DOES THIS EVER TAKE PLACE IN THE ZAPRUDER,NIX OR MUCHMORE FILMS???????

It obviously doesn't...it hasnt taken place 150m thru the triple underpass out of Dealey plaza.....

So where else could Ready be talking about getting out of the QM running towards the pres limo getting called back then taking a seat inside the front of the QM.............because in the stemmons AR15 aloft photo 3 people are now in the front seat..........but just after the triple underpass......both Landis and Ready are outside the QM on running boards.......

There are eye witnesses that said the Queen Mary stopped under the overhead on/off ramps of the stemmons Freeway....maybe DSL found newspaper clippings, maybe he saw it in dpd statements.....but i too heard of these eyewitnesses and read about what they said they saw at least 8 to 10 years ago too.

Dont discount DSL....HE was better than all of us at this dooky.

AJ